Andy Miller III
Cover Image for A New Kind of Salvation Army Community with Caleb Louden

A New Kind of Salvation Army Community with Caleb Louden

January 13, 2022

A new expression of Salvation Army church life has developed in Atlanta called Creekside ATL. Caleb Louden is a leader at Creekside. On today's podcast, he and I talk about how this community is innovating new ways to express the ecclesiology and mission of The Salvation Army. I LOVED this conversation with Caleb.

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Here is a rough transcript from the podcast. For the most acuracy please refere to the recordings.

Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm so guys are here, go get 321 welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm glad you come along and today I have my friend caleb allowed on caleb it's so good to see you and hear you.

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Caleb Louden: it's good to be here and been a longtime listener of this podcast and super excited to now be a part of it feel like when people used to call on the radio shows let's say something like longtime listener first time.

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Andy Miller III: Right well what an honor.

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Andy Miller III: It shows our listeners in the world truly our listeners so.

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Andy Miller III: What a blessing.

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Andy Miller III: And caleb and I like we just got started get going, just before this because it's easy to get talking in and whether people I enjoy talking to the most because we have similar histories caleb's significantly younger than me.

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Andy Miller III: But in a good i'm trying to company.

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Andy Miller III: Anyhow it's.

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Andy Miller III: We but we get while we kind of speak same similar theological language had some similar background.

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Andy Miller III: And I just enjoy planning for the future with him and he's doing a really unique as part of the leadership team.

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Andy Miller III: Of the creekside church we're going to hear about that, but kayla before we get too far just give folks a little sense of who you are and where you've been and before you got to this place where you're serving with you and your wife and friends at creekside.

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Caleb Louden: Thank you yeah love to.

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Caleb Louden: So I am a lifelong salvation so one who.

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Caleb Louden: Is the son of officers and my mom's side several generations of salvation ISM on that side of the family.

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Caleb Louden: And so the Salvation Army has been a very familiar part of my life for a long time, and so growing up, I moved around quite a bit, I think I lived in 13 different houses, before I graduated high school.

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Caleb Louden: That, I think that's the right number.

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Caleb Louden: Last count.

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Caleb Louden: And so there's a lot of transition that took me to all sorts of places like Oklahoma and North Carolina and Atlanta Florida, and just all over the southeast and I love my upbringing, I really enjoyed.

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Caleb Louden: The experiences I had as being officers kid and had a great home life and great parents and then, when I graduate high school, I went to the University of South Florida was part of the College house program there in Tampa.

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Caleb Louden: Right and.

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Caleb Louden: at the tail end of that that time there at USF I was going to be a part of the salvation of service for that summer.

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Caleb Louden: Summer after graduated.

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Caleb Louden: And during our leaders orientation there, I was invited to go on a prayer walk that was guided by this little primer that we are given.

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Caleb Louden: And I didn't really take the opportunity that seriously at first, but as I continue to read through it started to experience the Holy Spirit ministering to me in some profound ways and through the course of that walk and not being called into ministry I.

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Caleb Louden: had a long time interest in politics i've been a bit of a politico since I was about 12 years old and.

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Andy Miller III: ingest all.

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Caleb Louden: That yeah follow the news avidly just and still probably consumed more news than I should to this day, but God just really put me on a very different trajectory through the course of that prayer walk.

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Caleb Louden: Okay, and lined up some of the most significant parts of my life, like my call to ministry also my co leader that summer, as a young woman in kindle iglehart at the time out loud in my wife.

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Caleb Louden: And in the course of the prayer walk there were just things hours receiving about even that aspect of my life and.

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Andy Miller III: wow just like one night one prayer walk itself it.

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Caleb Louden: was just one prayer walk in the afternoon and the Lord spoke directly a passage for me to look up from Hebrews Hebrews, five, six and it's a reference to jesus's status as our high priest and.

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Caleb Louden: yeah it's the whole the whole verse of you are a priest forever at grand or not because of that.

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Caleb Louden: Ryan I up until that plant and praying, you know as a college graduate like what's The next step lauren is struggling with calling.

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Caleb Louden: But I began to realize and looking back on my life, how God have been shaken me all my life for full time vocational Ministry.

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Caleb Louden: And then read that passage and getting that sense of this thing of me participating in Christ role in that way and that kind of ministry and it being something that is forever irrevocable.

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Caleb Louden: yeah I felt God was asking me to surrender that aspect of my life, and I did and it's amazing how God opened up so many doors there after I mean I always admired Fred Meyer for quite some time.

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Caleb Louden: graduates of astro theological seminary.

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Caleb Louden: yeah typically.

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Caleb Louden: Dennis can long as I know.

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Caleb Louden: Security vendors as well.

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Caleb Louden: yeah my dad turned me on to his preaching, and so I would I remember at the Tampa where I found the library cassette tapes of is from officers Councils, etc.

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Caleb Louden: For the Florida wow I can I don't know 91 or 92 and I just happened to have a car that cassette tape player and I was the only cassette tape player, I had so I drive around just to listen to his preaching.

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Caleb Louden: And so I always admired folks who are attached to asbury seminary in some way, and so I felt led to that for that to be my next step in this calling experience, and so I applied about midway through the summer didn't want wasn't accepted until the Friday before classes started.

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Caleb Louden: wow and then my parents and I hurried up to wilmore from Fort myers Florida and got me settled, I began classes, I think, two days late there and then about two weeks later, I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship that cover 80% of my tuition.

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Caleb Louden: Why because someone just out the blue dropped out of that program and that opened up for me and then two years later same thing happened with another scholarship that then gave me a full ride scholarship and.

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Caleb Louden: wow so I just say i'll just say.

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Caleb Louden: That I love to testify to what God did for me in that moment, and to his faithfulness yeah when the Lord calls you and you answer he is faithful.

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Caleb Louden: And yes, i'm just so grateful for that those precious moments in the woods there in North Georgia can do so.

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Andy Miller III: yeah that's right, I have an interest now.

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Andy Miller III: You know you don't some people might hear what you're saying they just assume that you're a Salvation Army officer.

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Andy Miller III: or clergy and establish army, so you went to as Ray seminary but you don't serve as an officer tell us what so.

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Andy Miller III: What is it you been doing since you've got great raspberry seminary.

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Caleb Louden: yeah it's a great question um I was called to ministry to full time vocational Ministry.

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Caleb Louden: I haven't still felt called to Saudi for our service during officer so always been open to that call.

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Caleb Louden: Right and.

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Andy Miller III: You have to learn how to express these things very clearly.

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Andy Miller III: threading the needle and.

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Caleb Louden: thread the needle I mean.

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Andy Miller III: You have to add the point.

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Andy Miller III: i'm open, and of course i'm open to the.

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Andy Miller III: lavish army officer ship i'm open to.

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Andy Miller III: That call back in just called me out and come back in so i'm threading the needle with you.

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Caleb Louden: yeah the road to the training school is paved with folks who have said no, at one point or another and then you know the Lord did something different.

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Caleb Louden: So, but no real I been open to that, but there are two aspects of my particular journey that I looked to that seem to be calling in a different direction one was.

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Caleb Louden: As I was growing up, and you know, having friends who we would meet for divisional events be a part of additional groups together and whatnot I watched as they got older and then became less and less attached to their core.

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Caleb Louden: yeah and through that experience one things i've observed that I think is there's some truth to is that the Salvation Army as a are kind of politics, our mode for mission is heavily reliant on local officers.

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Caleb Louden: yeah because we have an itinerant system where the officers and the Salvation Army are often called to take a new appointment and when that happens.

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Caleb Louden: That transition can open up all kinds of new wonderful opportunities for our core, but it can also provide the opportunity for some things to be dropped, or to be lost or.

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Caleb Louden: For relationships to.

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Caleb Louden: Pressure to suffer for one reason or another, so all it say I recognize the that the need for really good committed long term local officers local leaders.

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Caleb Louden: To partner with our.

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Caleb Louden: commissioned officers in ministry and to be a part of.

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Caleb Louden: You know, to see themselves as aids to them when there is that transition and yeah and so that that was that was part of it and also just wanting to.

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Caleb Louden: You know, help to foster that kind of long term community to that comes from that.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Caleb Louden: You know, to.

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Caleb Louden: see a renewal and I think that's something that the whole church struggles with that one yellow or another is that the church can really be that church like find there in the second chapter of acts, you know this this church that's characterized by coin and me.

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Caleb Louden: By this need fellowship united in the common cause, and in the end, being devoted to the apostles teaching and prayer and the breaking of bread like just that sense of intimacy and Community given so many social factors that's a much more difficult thing to.

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Andy Miller III: realize I think yeah yeah.

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Caleb Louden: And it requires folks who are going to be there for a while to to help accomplish.

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Andy Miller III: keep going.

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Andy Miller III: She did that in the context of serving a part as a as a paid position adult for Salvation Army a large shami shami church or large Amish army corps.

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Andy Miller III: But yeah me you're gonna say something else.

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Caleb Louden: Other than just that that another part of the two was just my wife's calling.

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Caleb Louden: Right kindle is very clearly called to be a therapist she's a mental health counselor her background is a marriage and family therapy she's a licensed counselor and.

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Caleb Louden: I just think she's the best therapist i've ever met you know and and I just know that God uses are insanely powerful ways through that location so that's been another aspect of it.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Andy Miller III: And those who don't know where you some of this language, those of you who aren't connected this army in the Salvation Army, at least in the United States In most places in the world, the husband and wife have to serve together, which is a beautiful thing and and.

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Andy Miller III: Absolutely, a bit of both experienced that, through our parents.

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Andy Miller III: And in new and abby and I serve together for close to 15 years like we understood the richness of that and like many people would be jealous of the average day but nevertheless it comes to a place where like.

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Andy Miller III: Both people have a sense of calling to that to that, and so, not only did you not feel that direction, but.

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Andy Miller III: It certainly isn't the case, your wife, if she they might be a way for her to serve and some counseling role.

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Andy Miller III: But probably not.

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Andy Miller III: To really function as a career as a family therapist is probably not going to happen there might be ways to use that.

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Andy Miller III: As an officer, but it's probably not going to be fulfilled.

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Caleb Louden: yeah I think you said that so well, it is such a beautiful rich part of our tradition and i've seen the incredible benefit of that and the lives of the officers, I really admire.

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Caleb Louden: yeah but just we had two different callings and.

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Caleb Louden: yeah will be pursuits.

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Andy Miller III: i've been working through that a little bit now ourselves I won't I won't make you the therapist for me.

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Andy Miller III: is like.

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Andy Miller III: Just as getting through like i've had abby at my side for 1415 years.

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Andy Miller III: And she's made me so much better in my work and but it came time to there's some good that comes in distinguishing things like we we would have trouble saying like where work would end where work for the core would end and where.

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Andy Miller III: Our family life would start like it was so Nick stuff.

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Andy Miller III: So there's but I i'll say like sitting in my office right now I do miss her I do miss having around while we're figuring that out, but it's also clear that god's called her to take an active role in our home and in homeschooling our kids.

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Andy Miller III: And we're still sharing in a fair amount, but it is distinct, so I appreciate you saying I didn't mean to cut you off, but I am interested in like the transition that you made into you feel call it vocational Ministry.

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Andy Miller III: And you go to seminary and you get married and your.

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Andy Miller III: Your wife's activities average amount sorry you don't feel called the salvation army officer, so how did that bind how did you mix all these things, Mary all these things.

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Andy Miller III: temple.

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Caleb Louden: Well, I was highly interested because of as very in core planting or.

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Caleb Louden: We also have another level of Community called mission stations.

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Caleb Louden: yeah so i'm very interested in planting of some kind, and asbury has this great church planning initiative that was launched around the time I was at asbury.

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Caleb Louden: So I reached out to the program Secretary at the time, Colonel Nina and he and Colonel Marty were very kind enough to go out to lunch with kindle and I just hear about our callings and.

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Caleb Louden: Just were so wonderful and receiving us in that way, and you know they're very enthusiastic about what we are feeling led to pursue and so he connected me to the area commander here in Atlanta, we were looking at Atlanta because kindle had an opportunity to work in Atlanta and.

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Caleb Louden: It was a wonderful opportunity and so and I Atlanta is a place i've lived for six years, growing up and actually as a member of the land symbol core and so, in many ways Atlanta has been home for both of us.

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Andy Miller III: yeah sure.

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Caleb Louden: So we landed on Atlanta, and I was connected to major hawks who was also very wonderful and open to what God was doing in in and what we're pursuing and then he file it be helpful to connect me to Captain can our God Captain Captain is Ken and amy are God at the Atlanta airport and.

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Caleb Louden: I just can't say enough good things about.

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Caleb Louden: yeah god's I love them so much and they were very enthusiastic and welcoming and.

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Caleb Louden: You know where they were not looking to hire anyone for what was interesting me before I approached them.

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Andy Miller III: And I.

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Caleb Louden: They were able to catch the vision right away and.

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Caleb Louden: start to retool their ministry team and I came on board and.

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Caleb Louden: was given the responsibility of ministering to our young adults and.

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Caleb Louden: Then over the years accumulated a couple of things, as is often the case of Salvation Army.

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Andy Miller III: Bringing these things, probably.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Caleb Louden: yeah ministry to our to those experiencing homelessness our Community.

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Caleb Louden: So on and.

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Caleb Louden: And Community outreach as well just going to Chamber commerce meetings and all that fun stuff.

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Caleb Louden: yeah in some Community development, but my principal thing was our Ministry for young adults and yeah that's that's really why I saw as my primary vocation there.

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Andy Miller III: And somehow This is connected to church planning or as a core planning trick planning it's obvious to me.

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Andy Miller III: yeah operations cool so somehow that gets mingled in here along the way, as you're serving the young adults it moves to become.

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Andy Miller III: What it is now identified as creek site, and this is incredibly fascinated me like how this was connecting and those who are in my audience.

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Andy Miller III: Some of you who are salvation is outside of southern territory i'm going to like Atlanta temple is like the.

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Andy Miller III: And I mean this in because there's a lot of good things about it, like what i'm gonna say this like a shrine almost to salvation ISM in the territory.

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Andy Miller III: And, and I would imagine other denominations have that like wherever the denominational headquarters is like there's probably a church in that city that just represents a lot of the history.

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Andy Miller III: leaders have come through there and, and this is a building diet is large for me.

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Andy Miller III: Far outside I mean at much far larger than any other Salvation Army unit as a facility, but it has a long history and so you're kind of coming in scituate and i'd say.

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Andy Miller III: For a period had a kind of I call it high church army feel, and I mean that that not like a necessarily technical sense but there's such a rich connection to the history and I would say there's probably.

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Andy Miller III: Only five or six savvy Sharma units out of 1200 and United States that have that same kind of rich heritage, which is a can be a blessing and a curse when you're trying to evangelize.

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Andy Miller III: So, so what caleb's what you're going to talk about here is like how you serve young adults add this is our for church planning and you do that, in the context of the the bastion of of conservatism, and I mean that no political way can have the territory.

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Caleb Louden: yeah well you know it's something that only the work done.

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Caleb Louden: I think i'm.

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Caleb Louden: And those sort of the way that that all unfolded was when I came on board at temple I very, very much up front about this passion for planting and we talked for a long time about.

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Caleb Louden: Can all my at some point thing, given the opportunity to plant somewhere, but.

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Caleb Louden: You know the spirit sort of very gently steered us in the direction we ended up going in and we were all the better for it, and so the same to answer your question.

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Caleb Louden: Basically I implemented some things I learned at asbury through a course that Dr Brian sims, who is a wonderful friend and mentor of mine.

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Caleb Louden: had taught and it was a year long course in leadership, but specifically mobilizing Laity for mission and Scott, our internship as part as a.

00:20:12.090 --> 00:20:20.430
Caleb Louden: student, you have to do an internship and so at that internship Come on, but there's also a particular component, where we literally experience what he and.

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Caleb Louden: Some of the people I works with do all the time i've been doing for over a decade, which is going into a church forming a kind of leadership team.

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Caleb Louden: giving them a taste of what discipleship is providing a theology of discipleship and moving from there into a vision casting mission statement crafting values determining.

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Andy Miller III: Phase yeah.

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Caleb Louden: yeah strategic plan sort of.

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Caleb Louden: phase and then from there into actually implementing that once you've evaluated what your Church is already doing, and so I took that what I learned in that course and then just began to apply it to our young adult context and we had.

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Caleb Louden: A retreat with our young adults and our first retreat, I really just use this opportunity to just talk about a Westland vision of sanctification and.

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Caleb Louden: That was a wonderful kind of beginning really to our Community formation we've seen our we've had subsequent retreats and every retreat seems to be I kind of compare it to like new year's day it's kind of the beginning of each year for creekside in some way where.

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Caleb Louden: God starts to do something new, through those Jaffrey every year.

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Caleb Louden: So that that was the first year and then through that first year with the young adults, we just right off right away start some kind of rhythm together, but with the intention of.

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Caleb Louden: Beginning and inductive process of co creating with our young adults, the Community, we wanted to be and the rhythms we wanted to share together, and so our second retreat is really well in that process began the next year.

00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:15.780
Caleb Louden: And I again just implemented some of what I learned in that course of asbury and our young adults really latched on and.

00:22:17.100 --> 00:22:24.390
Caleb Louden: committed themselves to that process or that weekend in that conversation for do so much fruit.

00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:39.990
Caleb Louden: And really gave us a sense of group identity of unity of energy around mission and around discipleship and that propel us into subsequent conversations, where we continue just to.

00:22:41.190 --> 00:22:49.440
Caleb Louden: refine and reassess what we all worth thinking that the spirit was doing in us as a Community.

00:22:50.490 --> 00:23:03.270
Caleb Louden: And, by the end of that year, we had essentially the scaffolding of a strategic plan that we began to really implement in earnest and that began having that that led to us having.

00:23:03.690 --> 00:23:10.980
Caleb Louden: A weekly contemporary worship meeting on Sunday mornings before what we call the main service in the Chapel.

00:23:11.730 --> 00:23:18.630
Caleb Louden: We in a some point, moving the time that that evening to make it more accessible for certain folks.

00:23:19.350 --> 00:23:26.910
Caleb Louden: We also implemented small groups as a part of our Community rhythm and men smaller than a woman small group.

00:23:27.510 --> 00:23:41.670
Caleb Louden: We decide to have monthly get together so that you could essentially invite someone who, maybe wasn't affiliated with all of the Salvation Army or church to what would be a low pressure kind of event.

00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:54.870
Caleb Louden: And we continue to have the annual retreat and in terms of the things that defined us are we had a vision statement, so our vision statement which was.

00:23:55.950 --> 00:24:17.190
Caleb Louden: The creekside is a Community woven together striving to live in love like Jesus, and so in everything we do, that is our our main purpose our central aspiration is to be that Community and then, in order to make that vision real to realize that vision, we have a mission which is.

00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:24.120
Caleb Louden: Also, a big part of what marks our communities is that mission statement.

00:24:25.530 --> 00:24:27.990
Caleb Louden: Which i'm currently blanking on sort of embarrassing.

00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:37.410
Caleb Louden: No it's the to accept befriend disciple and serve like Jesus that's essentially our mission.

00:24:38.790 --> 00:24:40.710
Caleb Louden: And that reflects the values of.

00:24:41.820 --> 00:24:58.560
Caleb Louden: Friendship acceptance discipleship and service so that forms the Gallic kind of skeleton of what is creek side, and then the rhythm helps us to provide opportunities for realizing the the vision that we have of being that community.

00:24:59.010 --> 00:25:04.590
Andy Miller III: yeah it's so interesting so what's happened, let me see I can frame this up and then you just correct me if i've got it wrong.

00:25:05.220 --> 00:25:12.300
Andy Miller III: you're in this context you're you're you're leading young adult ministry in what for the Salvation Army is a large Salvation Army church and.

00:25:12.540 --> 00:25:20.940
Andy Miller III: As you're getting that you're developing Community you're figuring out like what does it mean for us to live out the mission of the Salvation Army in our Community, but yet like.

00:25:21.300 --> 00:25:31.290
Andy Miller III: there's something distinct that needs to happen from the larger body this and, in this case traditional body like How does that happen essentially to me it's like I.

00:25:31.530 --> 00:25:38.430
Andy Miller III: Clean theologically i'm not quite sure how to define it, but you would be forming a sub church or their own church is connected.

00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:45.840
Andy Miller III: To this larger larger church, but you're doing this in a different place, and let me just like say what I know of it, I don't know very much you.

00:25:46.230 --> 00:25:49.680
Andy Miller III: Have small groups, you have worship you'd likely have given him some kind.

00:25:50.580 --> 00:25:56.550
Andy Miller III: And it's the Salvation Army is based on establishing armies articles of faith and doctrine, but yet you don't wear.

00:25:56.910 --> 00:26:04.530
Andy Miller III: As far as I know, don't wear uniform there's art some of the traditional markers of the Salvation Army and i'm not saying it's good or bad, but.

00:26:05.370 --> 00:26:19.080
Andy Miller III: This to me this is incredibly new and you take a whole group of young adults not away from another core to start another core, but yet you have this sub Community happening within the life of the landscape, of course.

00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:35.100
Andy Miller III: there's something that I i've never heard that like generally when we think about starting new core you get some money together to go to a new Community was a need for social services, and you, you started a whole nother Salvation Army unit of operation, but this is clearly.

00:26:36.540 --> 00:26:46.050
Andy Miller III: A community of believers, not us, not a group that's trying to start an entire Salvation Army unit all right, I said a lot there, but it may and correct me if i've got some that wrong.

00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:55.500
Caleb Louden: No, I think you're you're really you're describing it well and we don't see ourselves as a separate church, but just one.

00:26:56.250 --> 00:27:11.730
Caleb Louden: Another connection point to Atlanta the Atlanta temple core one that, as you said, is still very grounded in salvation ISM and our articles of faith and the heritage of the Salvation Army, but it's still presenting it in perhaps a new way.

00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:22.800
Caleb Louden: and providing new connection points for folks who, for them, they just resonate with a different expression of salvation ISM at some level now.

00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:39.120
Caleb Louden: Many of us, myself included, still participate in the weekly worship of the elemental core at large and i'm blessed to do so, but you know, one of the ways I think about sort of the distinctions, and all this is.

00:27:40.530 --> 00:27:45.540
Caleb Louden: But first of all, the temple court has what they call hybrid service, so there are contemporary elements in the.

00:27:46.620 --> 00:27:58.530
Caleb Louden: Most traditional, but I think something that I have been helpful framework for me is this distinction between form and value and.

00:27:59.280 --> 00:28:13.680
Caleb Louden: I think in worship, you can have various forms of worship and our forms of worship can have equal worth they can all be worthwhile for a believer to invest energy and to participate in.

00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.090
Caleb Louden: But that doesn't mean that they don't necessarily have different value.

00:28:18.390 --> 00:28:25.620
Caleb Louden: That they don't still have a different kind of formative value than other forms do.

00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:30.210
Caleb Louden: I should say, before I even really dive into that that.

00:28:31.590 --> 00:28:34.860
Caleb Louden: You know, at the very start worship is about worshiping.

00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:36.540
Caleb Louden: God right right right right.

00:28:37.020 --> 00:28:45.840
Caleb Louden: You know, sometimes we can talk about worship in such a way that it's the way we speak is mostly about are receiving something from worship.

00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.730
Caleb Louden: I think worship is about.

00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:51.510
Caleb Louden: What we receive but it's for us primarily about.

00:28:52.530 --> 00:29:07.530
Caleb Louden: You know praising and worshiping God for who he is and what he's done in our lives and, yes, we do receive from him in worship as well it's it's, a thing that reflects the fact that we're in relationship with God in relationships there's that mutuality.

00:29:07.950 --> 00:29:10.590
Caleb Louden: yeah, but that was that's preamble.

00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:16.080
Caleb Louden: When it comes to worship forms, you know every worship form.

00:29:17.310 --> 00:29:21.510
Caleb Louden: is the product of a particular historical context.

00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:27.990
Caleb Louden: yeah product of particular styles or.

00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:40.020
Caleb Louden: Community Community so many factors, you know when you listen to for the savage star you brass in music there's a variety of styles that are brass can't brass band can play.

00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:48.930
Caleb Louden: But even so, the instrumentation of it still carries a certain value that's different from the value that like a contemporary worship band.

00:29:49.050 --> 00:29:50.070
Andy Miller III: My primary right.

00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:51.180
Caleb Louden: and

00:29:51.930 --> 00:29:53.310
Andy Miller III: It does something different.

00:29:53.370 --> 00:29:55.950
Andy Miller III: Like it's like does how it functions so like.

00:29:56.130 --> 00:29:57.990
Andy Miller III: There is there is value to it and it's an.

00:29:58.050 --> 00:30:10.890
Andy Miller III: equal value what you're saying, but what that does and what it communicates is something to think now, you can work really hard to make that brass band and i'm a brass band guy as are you I mean i've published pieces by Salvation Army I.

00:30:11.280 --> 00:30:15.420
Andy Miller III: Probably like it too much, but the the value that it communicates.

00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:16.200
Caleb Louden: yeah.

00:30:16.350 --> 00:30:22.920
Andy Miller III: he's different like it it like some pizza person could come in, like i've had this happen before some person came in one time.

00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:35.790
Andy Miller III: To Salvation Army meeting, where I was playing my Horn and they were really mad at me for the band because we didn't have woodwinds in the band like like truly frustrated like How dare you not include the flute.

00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:42.120
Andy Miller III: and actually in my context, like everywhere, I wasn't like come on in saxophones whoever like.

00:30:42.390 --> 00:30:52.380
Andy Miller III: A die, it says the the the texture and tambor of the music but um but that communicate the brass band itself communicates something yeah also can be.

00:30:52.800 --> 00:31:03.450
Andy Miller III: There are people who are Christians today and salvation is today because they found they played a horn and they came in like hey I didn't play in that band, and so they came in, or people who.

00:31:03.750 --> 00:31:17.940
Andy Miller III: They hung around because they were in this Avatar because they went to Camp summer they played, and they found some they are interested in it made them successful and band at school and it's just so like there's that is a value that here's here's The challenge for me.

00:31:19.050 --> 00:31:29.100
Andy Miller III: Is I, and this is something that puts me at odds with many people and Salvation Army is that I believe, like that part of why the Salvation Army exists is to.

00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:45.060
Andy Miller III: evangelize is for people to come to faith and I think that happens in the context of Salvation Army churches that's what I think we should be churches should exist, like we exist as a church, so if that's the case like How does our how do our worship services invite new people in.

00:31:45.450 --> 00:32:04.470
Andy Miller III: And I think that the value of that form of the brass band sometimes keeps people from coming in, become involved, for whatever that sound does whatever creates maybe it's an out of tune sound as it couldn't be more at the Jackson core where i'm i'm playing right in.

00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:06.510
Andy Miller III: Atlanta typical core which has.

00:32:06.540 --> 00:32:11.400
Andy Miller III: got PhDs in music, who are who are playing and leaving those.

00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:12.270
Andy Miller III: Groups so.

00:32:13.650 --> 00:32:17.700
Andy Miller III: I think like what it communicates to the outsider that's My point is like.

00:32:18.090 --> 00:32:21.120
Andy Miller III: yeah and sometimes it hurts us with the outsider.

00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.300
Andy Miller III: And that's that's my concern with it sometimes.

00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:41.820
Caleb Louden: When you know I don't think you're entirely wrong about that I will, I am one of those that was deeply formed by the brass band tradition, someone who at different points in my life was more attached to the Salvation Army, because the opportunity in nebraska in.

00:32:42.180 --> 00:32:49.590
Caleb Louden: And yeah to this day, there are moments in my spirituality where the thing I need more than anything else is to turn on reserve or.

00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:51.480
Andy Miller III: i'm, with the aim for.

00:32:51.720 --> 00:33:01.860
Caleb Louden: And the way the Lord ministers to me at the King of trial with low it comes on clouds and sending you know it's like hard for anything else really compare, for me.

00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:03.390
Andy Miller III: it's a solo language for me.

00:33:03.660 --> 00:33:05.580
Andy Miller III: Is it connects me.

00:33:05.760 --> 00:33:07.800
Andy Miller III: And it's part of my heritage, but.

00:33:08.340 --> 00:33:10.590
Andy Miller III: I have to realize that not everybody shares that same.

00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:12.360
Andy Miller III: That same thing.

00:33:12.690 --> 00:33:13.530
Andy Miller III: Keep i'll let you.

00:33:13.590 --> 00:33:14.190
Andy Miller III: i'll let you talk.

00:33:15.060 --> 00:33:29.340
Caleb Louden: I think that i'm recognizing that every form has a different kind of value and has something different to offer should invite us then to participate in various forms of worship, I think.

00:33:30.030 --> 00:33:38.370
Caleb Louden: If it has some there's something in the form that affects what the that particular form of discipleship is doing.

00:33:38.760 --> 00:33:50.970
Caleb Louden: Then it's great then open yourself up, I think, to various forms of worship and to provide opportunities for various forms of worship and sometimes that means having a hybrid meeting where.

00:33:51.120 --> 00:33:52.920
Caleb Louden: you're able to weave together.

00:33:53.190 --> 00:33:54.720
Caleb Louden: The various styles.

00:33:54.780 --> 00:34:08.910
Caleb Louden: And yeah you experience you know kind of something upbeat and the brass band where you're saying storing the force of darkness, or what have you and then that is able to lead into maybe.

00:34:09.240 --> 00:34:16.080
Caleb Louden: Some contemporary worship song that provides more reflective kind of atmosphere, what have you, but I also think.

00:34:16.410 --> 00:34:28.440
Caleb Louden: That hybrid is one way of approaching it another way, is to have a meeting that is entirely in one style maybe that is a traditional meeting you know what my friends are the Methodist church will frequently have.

00:34:29.700 --> 00:34:37.110
Caleb Louden: You know, a their churches, where they have a traditional service in the morning and then a contemporary service later in the morning and.

00:34:38.070 --> 00:34:48.960
Caleb Louden: that's the approach that their churches taken and I guess i'm trying to say is I don't think there's anything wrong with offering more opportunities for worship and.

00:34:49.410 --> 00:34:59.340
Caleb Louden: find more opportunities for major for formation that are distinct from one another and I mentioned starting the forest gardens, is an example that I like to bring up and just in that.

00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:12.480
Caleb Louden: Lifestyle basis will know that sort of the forces of darkness, it was written to the tune that was that was a cartoon that was tune that was very familiar to people who have spent a lot of time.

00:35:12.720 --> 00:35:15.900
Andy Miller III: In bars years to good oh whiskey drink it down exactly.

00:35:16.470 --> 00:35:20.940
Andy Miller III: If you want a detail history of this go back to my interview with Dr Nathan Miller my brother.

00:35:21.120 --> 00:35:24.930
Andy Miller III: And he writes on that piece and his doctoral dissertation but that's another story keep going.

00:35:25.020 --> 00:35:27.360
Caleb Louden: Right what, but I have to imagine.

00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:37.890
Caleb Louden: that one of the things about that at the time I was genius was you were doing something that other Christians of the time would have been very hesitant to do.

00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:38.490
Andy Miller III: To yeah.

00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:42.990
Caleb Louden: yeah yeah sacred language and put to a tune like that.

00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:48.660
Caleb Louden: And so, in that way it had a kind of transgressive quality might say it felt a little.

00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:50.190
Andy Miller III: rebel yeah sure.

00:35:50.250 --> 00:36:00.510
Caleb Louden: yeah no it had kind of appeal to the just the people that the Salvation Army was wanting to appeal to, and in that way, had a different kind of formative value.

00:36:00.570 --> 00:36:03.810
Andy Miller III: yeah so yeah so what's the value now.

00:36:04.230 --> 00:36:08.010
Andy Miller III: Like the value is not the same thing I just can't I can't hold it in.

00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:17.760
Andy Miller III: Like the value now is like we're celebrate when you sing that we're celebrating that we and you and I are part of this week because we're generations in like.

00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:25.560
Andy Miller III: My my family history goes back to those days like I had family members who sang that song and it felt like transgressive, as you said.

00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:35.970
Andy Miller III: To them Okay, but now i'm singing that song in part because of that legacy like i'm seeing it we used to do that.

00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:37.380
Caleb Louden: yeah.

00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:46.440
Andy Miller III: Like i'm saying we used to be the one who who really took that and did something that was a little risky for the sake of winning people that Jesus.

00:36:46.740 --> 00:36:47.370
Caleb Louden: I mean.

00:36:48.540 --> 00:36:49.110
Andy Miller III: i'm saying.

00:36:49.410 --> 00:36:57.360
Caleb Louden: yeah I know I, and I, you know I yeah I love that we're talking about this right now, because I think it's something that sometimes miss.

00:36:57.660 --> 00:37:12.540
Caleb Louden: I mean, one of my favorite my other favorite examples of this is the role at the brass band initially had in marching right and there's still a core that marks today, you know, particularly in England, I think they're not require that still have their band March.

00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:29.640
Caleb Louden: 1 worst of Sunday Sunday, but I that's not something that was all that familiar with me, for me, growing up, I mean we we would participate in marches at the course that I was part of but very occasionally and.

00:37:30.870 --> 00:37:47.010
Caleb Louden: I remember being at Congress in 2015 in London, the International Congress and, at the end of that Congress there's going to be a march to Buckingham Palace, and you know I remember as the underdog, you know as a young adult still young adult just barely.

00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:56.730
Caleb Louden: And thinking you know I might go that I don't know you know that I guess that might be cool well I ended up going and getting there for the tail end of it.

00:37:57.150 --> 00:37:57.450

00:37:58.950 --> 00:38:06.840
Caleb Louden: yeah what and I, as I arrived, you know also i'm starting to realize Okay, this is way better than I imagined it was going to be as you're.

00:38:07.350 --> 00:38:13.860
Caleb Louden: starting to feel the energy of the crowd and hearing the noise of what was going on, so I get up to the road.

00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:27.000
Caleb Louden: And I see the ISP coming down the road and the general leading the March and they're playing one of these great marches, you know whether it's Cairo red shield is it red car I always go.

00:38:27.060 --> 00:38:29.190
Andy Miller III: that's it you got it yeah yeah okay I got right.

00:38:29.850 --> 00:38:34.890
Caleb Louden: or one of those wonderful just you know really in your face kind of marches.

00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:42.360
Caleb Louden: yeah and I began to cry I just began to cry because all of a sudden, all these things started to click together for me where.

00:38:42.630 --> 00:38:56.460
Caleb Louden: I you know, had experienced this in my heritage at some level by began to see in that moment that the brass band was designed to be this form of aggressive Christianity, a phrase that's used in our.

00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:57.930
Andy Miller III: Our tradition yeah yeah.

00:38:59.100 --> 00:39:07.530
Caleb Louden: yeah this I mean you can imagine nebraska and going down these narrow roads and the walls just shaking and things rapidly because of the.

00:39:08.100 --> 00:39:19.440
Caleb Louden: intensity of what was happening, but just the noise of it and hearing the bass trombone come in with these wonderful deep loud, you know belches you might say.

00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:30.300
Caleb Louden: It was, and you know our music forces at the beginning or not all that skilled nowhere near as skilled, as they are today and what in that moment, was conveyed to me was.

00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:36.030
Caleb Louden: The extent to which the brass band is this kind of.

00:39:37.560 --> 00:39:39.330
Caleb Louden: just got a militant.

00:39:40.680 --> 00:39:49.410
Caleb Louden: aggressive bold strong proclamation of the power of God to save.

00:39:49.770 --> 00:39:52.620
Caleb Louden: yeah the power of God to come into any space.

00:39:52.860 --> 00:40:04.860
Caleb Louden: to disrupt what's happening and two per claim without fear that Christ is lord and that nothing's going to change that in fact what's even better, is that Christ has come to save you even.

00:40:06.120 --> 00:40:12.750
Caleb Louden: Despite all that you've done in your life and we're committed so faithfully to this that we're going to make some noise.

00:40:13.020 --> 00:40:13.650
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.

00:40:14.100 --> 00:40:27.420
Caleb Louden: i'm in and we're going to storm the force of dark so it was like seeing that in that moment I all of a sudden, I just felt formed by it and and my 15th and by it.

00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:37.080
Caleb Louden: And there have been times, where i've just been stuck on YouTube for hours on in watching bands salvage our bands marks around the world in different settings.

00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:42.840
Caleb Louden: I think it's actually beautiful expression that we've somewhat lost.

00:40:43.170 --> 00:40:53.100
Caleb Louden: Like I started some work still do so I guess the better question, though, is not necessarily, how can we recreate the wheel I would love for soundcheck dances start marching more often.

00:40:54.300 --> 00:41:03.900
Caleb Louden: But more what's our form of that today that kind of yeah you know bold fearless evangelical action.

00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:06.360
Caleb Louden: To go that's a question lines.

00:41:06.390 --> 00:41:14.580
Andy Miller III: yeah it's a function, so I i've used and maybe to my detriment form and function or mission and model.

00:41:14.820 --> 00:41:35.310
Andy Miller III: And so you have the mission that's primary and then you have the model that can change, you have the form that is the form functions, so all together, like is that is that form functioning is a form that is easy to pick that brass band just a helpful one to use.

00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:36.960
Andy Miller III: Right familiar in this context.

00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.610
Caleb Louden: What about so many other things yeah.

00:41:38.670 --> 00:41:43.680
Caleb Louden: yeah it could be uniform, it could be terminology could be structure.

00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:46.590
Andy Miller III: I don't think it's the ology, though.

00:41:46.710 --> 00:41:48.480
Andy Miller III: They don't think it's like our 11 articles of faith.

00:41:48.690 --> 00:42:00.060
Andy Miller III: But so he formed his phone and so that function for you and that function for many people, but the question is like, and this is why I want to push to it, is that, like the young adults of your core.

00:42:00.690 --> 00:42:11.700
Andy Miller III: were similar people to you like similar backgrounds you was is that functioning within the context of a local congregation.

00:42:12.930 --> 00:42:24.870
Andy Miller III: Bringing people in in the same way, like it was that beautiful way you described it, like the the boldness of the gospel of the big how big God is to bring people in and save people where they are.

00:42:26.130 --> 00:42:37.620
Andy Miller III: I like that and there's a way that I could disagree with myself in this, but the same time i'm not sure that its function that way, so when you go and you start a Community creekside.

00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:45.990
Andy Miller III: that's not the form that you take it's not functioning and the value of it is different, based upon the people you're trying to reach is that right.

00:42:46.530 --> 00:43:07.320
Caleb Louden: yeah and you know, one of the things i'm kind of even putting together, even now, is the extent to which in that example the this huge loud brass band making some noise through London that was so well match for the theology of booth to which was this message of full salvation.

00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:08.250
Andy Miller III: Of yes, yes.

00:43:08.730 --> 00:43:15.120
Caleb Louden: salvation for anyone, and anyway, so I say that to also say to answer your question.

00:43:16.470 --> 00:43:24.270
Caleb Louden: creek side, I would say is continuing to wrestle with this question of what is the form that.

00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:32.010
Caleb Louden: would function well for the underlying theology that we're trying to communicate for the mission.

00:43:33.330 --> 00:43:33.900
Caleb Louden: and

00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:36.540
Caleb Louden: You know, I think.

00:43:37.560 --> 00:43:40.290
Caleb Louden: We are very much in our infancy still.

00:43:41.820 --> 00:43:47.550
Caleb Louden: We have seen folks come into the Salvation Army through creek side or be.

00:43:47.610 --> 00:43:48.990
Caleb Louden: energized about.

00:43:49.140 --> 00:44:02.850
Caleb Louden: mission within the Salvation Army and and, more importantly, reenergize around holiness and discipleship and being a relationship and with with Christ.

00:44:04.050 --> 00:44:10.230
Caleb Louden: But you know we're also in the midst of you can't really say post pandemic world.

00:44:10.590 --> 00:44:11.310
Andy Miller III: Right right.

00:44:11.640 --> 00:44:13.320
Caleb Louden: bro and.

00:44:14.640 --> 00:44:24.930
Caleb Louden: Like with an alarm other churches are best laid plans suddenly didn't work all that well in the face of the pandemic and.

00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:27.000
Caleb Louden: Now that said.

00:44:28.470 --> 00:44:48.480
Caleb Louden: In the midst of this kind of wilderness moment God has been continually to reef continually refocusing us on the things that are most important like holiness and intimacy with Jesus, and yes conveying the Gospel and being afraid and having a confident proclamation.

00:44:50.190 --> 00:44:58.260
Caleb Louden: And, and also focusing us on Community and what what is Christian community formative community.

00:44:59.310 --> 00:45:05.010
Caleb Louden: What is the church called to be I mean what does it mean to be in the living bride of Christ.

00:45:05.370 --> 00:45:05.700
Caleb Louden: yeah.

00:45:06.390 --> 00:45:07.110
And so.

00:45:08.550 --> 00:45:21.000
Caleb Louden: Through various conversations last year and through just the implementation of so many things we've continued to discern around that and.

00:45:22.230 --> 00:45:27.210
Caleb Louden: yeah i'm excited for it god's gonna lead us in this next stage.

00:45:27.630 --> 00:45:34.710
Andy Miller III: So, and I wanted to just I i'm very excited by the idea of what you've done and that you'd like to communities, I know you're.

00:45:34.980 --> 00:45:48.930
Andy Miller III: kind of spokesperson for me today, we could have brought on five people who you know who could have talked about it, because you for this idea was formed a committee, but your educational experiences put you in a position to help guide this Community through that so I don't mean to minimize.

00:45:50.070 --> 00:45:53.460
Andy Miller III: The community's role by saying what you've done so, forgive me.

00:45:53.550 --> 00:46:00.780
Caleb Louden: For saying yeah and i'm happy you highlight that, too, because it allows me to just emphasize what you said that.

00:46:01.950 --> 00:46:14.880
Caleb Louden: My feeling and the feeling of our Community ultimately has always been that if it's not us co creating this together yeah and it's not going to be what really God wants it to be that.

00:46:14.910 --> 00:46:23.040
Caleb Louden: yeah vision, you know we can often think of vision as something that only you know, a positional leader receives and then did yeah.

00:46:23.040 --> 00:46:34.320
Caleb Louden: yeah to those that are out there, leadership and you know, I think that that probably that might have worked for a time, but I think we're in a time of context where that sort of leadership just doesn't.

00:46:34.350 --> 00:46:35.220
communicate right.

00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:37.080
Caleb Louden: and

00:46:37.530 --> 00:46:39.300
Andy Miller III: i'm sorry, those of you are.

00:46:39.570 --> 00:46:43.980
Andy Miller III: physicians and physicians here at Western medical seminary so like look but.

00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:44.460

00:46:45.510 --> 00:46:52.740
Caleb Louden: I just think culturally speaking it just it doesn't work as it wants did not that there's not any value to that.

00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:53.850
Andy Miller III: yeah.

00:46:53.910 --> 00:47:02.160
Caleb Louden: i'm searching and and I do think, though, still that there is some theological value to that you know yeah.

00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:04.710
Caleb Louden: Absolutely, the early church and.

00:47:04.950 --> 00:47:09.030
Caleb Louden: yeah there's this principle of Christian conference of coming together.

00:47:09.030 --> 00:47:12.060
Caleb Louden: At CERN what is good for them and for the spirit.

00:47:12.090 --> 00:47:14.490
Andy Miller III: Okay, the watch out my man.

00:47:14.610 --> 00:47:26.850
Caleb Louden: Again chabot that's an important aspect and there you know, there are expressions of that in the Salvation Army that principle Christian conference um and I don't know that I necessarily want to go down that road.

00:47:27.180 --> 00:47:27.630
Caleb Louden: I do.

00:47:29.160 --> 00:47:29.640
Andy Miller III: hey here's this.

00:47:30.750 --> 00:47:35.790
Andy Miller III: here's this interesting like you said, like that I am a publicly called for more democratic impulses.

00:47:35.790 --> 00:47:36.540
Andy Miller III: verse me show me.

00:47:36.570 --> 00:47:52.800
Andy Miller III: darshan conferencing so like that that is a problem, like essentially like we don't exist in a place where we have a polity or a theology of the church that sees the local body as determining its reality.

00:47:54.360 --> 00:48:04.440
Andy Miller III: i'm sorry i'm sorry to be harsh, then I recognize i'm trying to be speaking the indicative, this is what is right that this is where we are and.

00:48:05.490 --> 00:48:11.910
Andy Miller III: it's not gonna work I don't think it's going where maybe it will maybe i'm wrong on that, but here's how they express it i'm going to be very brash.

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:13.680
Caleb Louden: And I might get in trouble for but.

00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.520
Andy Miller III: let's say.

00:48:15.120 --> 00:48:18.480
Andy Miller III: let's say and it looks like you're going to move me so.

00:48:19.770 --> 00:48:28.290
Caleb Louden: i'm just not co signing what you're saying you know, this is not caleb law, this baby Miller they're not going to come and say the creekside a group of.

00:48:28.560 --> 00:48:37.590
Andy Miller III: General generations have patients who brought new people into faith new people into their community or worse me in different ways, connected this congregation it you, you might disagree with this.

00:48:38.100 --> 00:48:48.630
Andy Miller III: they've come in somebody come in and say close the doors until you go to Atlanta temple or not you're The truth is, they can't do that to you.

00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:58.050
Andy Miller III: you're you're off the grid, in a sense, like now, you have a position you have to work a tear to headquarters it's a little there, and some of the other people who are part of your congregation.

00:48:58.350 --> 00:49:03.090
Andy Miller III: and have a job there, but let's just say that you work for motorola and there's a but you.

00:49:03.690 --> 00:49:14.820
Andy Miller III: value the same things like you found a way, and this is why I think what you're doing caleb and what everybody's doing at creekside is so valuable is you found a way to express yourself.

00:49:15.390 --> 00:49:22.440
Andy Miller III: outside the system, but yet do it in a way that's consistent with the history and tradition established I don't think anybody would actually do that to you.

00:49:22.560 --> 00:49:23.130
Caleb Louden: know I don't.

00:49:23.580 --> 00:49:25.830
Andy Miller III: know I like so like it's not really on the table.

00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:45.810
Andy Miller III: But it is, but it is incense like what you're doing is it subversive to the system like I like rather than I mean that in a positive way it's challenging the system to say, we can exist as a congregation outside of the forms that have been established now pushed back put it.

00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:47.490
Caleb Louden: put me well.

00:49:47.910 --> 00:49:49.080
Caleb Louden: I mean, I know.

00:49:49.590 --> 00:50:07.770
Caleb Louden: There are elements what you say that I am definitely an agreement with I think just points I would add, would be that there is also a lot of value and utility to a model that provides very that provides leadership degree of agility right for the mission.

00:50:08.130 --> 00:50:19.200
Caleb Louden: And when we're able to move in that way you can see the value of that you know and things I have friends who are in our traditions, where you know everything's a committee.

00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.410
Andy Miller III: yeah I understand you know you've heard all that before.

00:50:22.830 --> 00:50:29.160
Caleb Louden: I know we want new drapes for our quarters it's going to take a committee meeting to decide if we can get new drapes that will kind of that.

00:50:29.190 --> 00:50:31.530
Andy Miller III: yeah certainly there too.

00:50:32.070 --> 00:50:37.260
Caleb Louden: yeah exactly so every system has its flaws and or its deficiencies.

00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:46.770
Caleb Louden: And one of the great strengths of viruses, the agility with which we are able to move when we're when we move effectively.

00:50:48.660 --> 00:50:50.850
Caleb Louden: And then, in terms of.

00:50:52.260 --> 00:51:08.460
Caleb Louden: Just you know, like you said no one's probably going to come and shut down what we're doing and and, in part because what we're doing art just the fundamentals of our faith, you know it's prayer it's like it's what the podcast.

00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:10.800
Andy Miller III: And Okay, let me ask you this, who.

00:51:12.030 --> 00:51:18.810
Andy Miller III: Do you do people creekside ties or fire cartridge to creekside or does it go to Atlanta temple.

00:51:18.990 --> 00:51:21.240
Caleb Louden: know it goes to Atlanta temple it goes there, like a temple.

00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:23.370
Andy Miller III: temple pays for the rent of where.

00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:24.540
Andy Miller III: Wherever we are functioning.

00:51:24.600 --> 00:51:27.330
Caleb Louden: The time that can I give those to temple and.

00:51:27.510 --> 00:51:27.930
Andy Miller III: It okay.

00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:33.360
Caleb Louden: You know, are now we have wonderful nuclear officers and majors Jose and.

00:51:33.390 --> 00:51:34.950
Andy Miller III: candy more yes yeah and.

00:51:35.970 --> 00:51:55.590
Caleb Louden: They are able to you know they they provide accountability, just as any pastor would terms of tithes and offering and and we We welcome that accountability, but yeah we tied to the body as a whole and and they are the able to see you know what young adults are worshiping and that way.

00:51:56.670 --> 00:51:57.150
Caleb Louden: yeah.

00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:03.240
Andy Miller III: that's interesting so um so you, but like do you all have a building or you rent a facility.

00:52:03.240 --> 00:52:23.220
Caleb Louden: don't currently have a building, we were meeting out of temple and then we began to talk about meeting out of someone's home in fact over the summer, we have worship meeting a couple meetings, out of cannibalize apartment our little two bedroom apartment here, which was great.

00:52:24.270 --> 00:52:34.920
Caleb Louden: But in terms of our meeting together for worship, we continued to kind of be in this process of yeah just retooling that a little bit.

00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:46.170
Caleb Louden: we've yeah we've never stopped meeting for small group and we actually aren't meeting for workshop again this coming Sunday, but there has been a whole lot of transition in the last year or so that.

00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:57.810
Caleb Louden: has meant that we've really emphasize our small group ministry about the other things that creeks I would really be doing in part of that transition is again transitioning through this.

00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:59.040
Andy Miller III: pandemic and sure.

00:52:59.070 --> 00:53:04.530
Caleb Louden: Sure, no struggling with the same questions that every pastor every.

00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:14.580
Caleb Louden: church Community I struggle with and how do I, like underline the fact that there's a genuine struggle I just for those listening.

00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:25.800
Caleb Louden: yeah as your pastor or your leadership body, whatever it might be is weighing these things like they're not trying to upset one side of the congregation or the other.

00:53:26.130 --> 00:53:36.450
Caleb Louden: For office of trying to figure out, you know what's the best way of keeping everyone safe wall so being a church and anyway, I just have a lot of empathy for those.

00:53:36.510 --> 00:53:38.340
Andy Miller III: folks are absolutely and like.

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:46.140
Andy Miller III: I have thought about it now, that is, in a place where you know we I spent some time this summer visiting so one of my roles is to be as the Dean or.

00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:54.090
Andy Miller III: Vice President for academic affairs is to oversee the Faculty and most of them faculty are pastors of churches so throughout the summer, we visited all their churches.

00:53:54.570 --> 00:54:10.350
Andy Miller III: Before we started to become more active in the local core congregation the Salvation Army church and Jackson so that is a part of like getting getting an opportunity to visit around is a helpful thing for for me now I just lost her, I was gonna say I started to get on.

00:54:10.770 --> 00:54:11.280
Caleb Louden: Here fine.

00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:12.180

00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:28.050
Andy Miller III: yeah well sorry to jump off that I I, I think that this model is really unique and i'm encouraged by it now here's my quick Do you still attend or did most of people still attend worship at the Atlanta temple court.

00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:29.310

00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:38.280
Caleb Louden: We always say mostly yes, we have had folks in the past, who for the premiere just creek sides worship meeting.

00:54:38.370 --> 00:54:56.580
Caleb Louden: yeah but as we've been less regular in the last few months or so we've you know provided those folks the opportunity or just encourage them rather to go to the meeting at temple and and I do think part of what god's doing right now in our Community is actually.

00:54:57.630 --> 00:55:01.890
Caleb Louden: reaffirming our role as very much a part of the Atlanta airport.

00:55:01.950 --> 00:55:05.130
Caleb Louden: And yeah and also leading us to.

00:55:06.450 --> 00:55:17.520
Caleb Louden: To be in conversation with folks that the other people that are a part of temple up with one another about how we can foster community as a whole community.

00:55:18.630 --> 00:55:24.750
Caleb Louden: there's a great book by David Gentlemen, the name of the other author escapes right now, but with barna.

00:55:25.290 --> 00:55:25.980
Andy Miller III: barno yet.

00:55:26.310 --> 00:55:26.730
Andy Miller III: Not a fan.

00:55:27.510 --> 00:55:31.770
Caleb Louden: yeah it's the books called faith for exiles and.

00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:43.440
Caleb Louden: Okay did all this research over many years about what makes for a resilient Christian as a young adult, what are the qualities of a young adult who's very resilient and.

00:55:43.860 --> 00:55:51.780
Caleb Louden: doesn't allow their faith to be swayed by the broader culture and one of the factors that they identify was integer intergenerational mentors.

00:55:52.140 --> 00:55:52.890
Andy Miller III: Right right.

00:55:54.600 --> 00:56:01.650
Caleb Louden: And so, you know as we're a group of adults, we still recognize the value of intergenerational community and.

00:56:01.650 --> 00:56:04.800
Caleb Louden: By want to be committed to that as well.

00:56:05.310 --> 00:56:07.530
Andy Miller III: yeah I know you're not trying to break off like I don't.

00:56:08.370 --> 00:56:08.520
Caleb Louden: know.

00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:14.190
Andy Miller III: That there's a way that the the values that are needed the forms that are needed.

00:56:14.550 --> 00:56:16.620
Andy Miller III: And to function in a way to be able to attract.

00:56:16.680 --> 00:56:22.440
Andy Miller III: New P, I think, like that's where I keep coming back, I was like what does it take to make strong congregations.

00:56:22.710 --> 00:56:33.540
Andy Miller III: Like for there to be strong car and if some of the things we're doing getting the way of that that's that we might need to think about changing them so that we can accomplish mission to we can accomplish them the.

00:56:33.870 --> 00:56:37.110
Andy Miller III: The so we can function, the way that were intended to function so like.

00:56:38.040 --> 00:56:47.130
Andy Miller III: it's hard it's hard to juggle it okay so let's say you did certain of them that way, well then, do you lose that intergenerational aspect because, like.

00:56:47.760 --> 00:57:02.250
Andy Miller III: You said I think some people would be glad to say let's just function like we are in the 1970s or 15 or something like let's just sing savage show me songs let's just sing songs that we know that are couple of like forms.

00:57:02.490 --> 00:57:10.980
Andy Miller III: Though like in just use our own internal language I just don't think that will ever be fulfilling if the purpose is connected to the gospel.

00:57:11.490 --> 00:57:13.530
Caleb Louden: yeah yeah no I.

00:57:14.670 --> 00:57:22.560
Caleb Louden: It is a really complex question, I think one of the things I think about what that question is, you know all ultimately all are trying to do.

00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:33.780
Caleb Louden: is to invite others into relationship with God and to be holy to be mentally I recently heard earlier in this podcast call the Holy Spirit the Holy making spira.

00:57:33.810 --> 00:57:35.100
Andy Miller III: Thinking lemon awesome.

00:57:35.220 --> 00:57:45.660
Caleb Louden: So he wants to buy love that phrase you know, like we are in this work of inviting others into this good news of god's saving work.

00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:56.220
Caleb Louden: And salvation not just from your prior sense not guilt there up, but also, as you believe, of course, to sanctification and holiness and.

00:57:56.250 --> 00:58:07.740
Caleb Louden: yeah the good works that he's laid ahead of us, and so, if that is the primary thing, then I think the question, ultimately, is what are the forms that point people.

00:58:07.950 --> 00:58:09.360
Andy Miller III: in that direction, yes.

00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:17.760
Caleb Louden: Yes, in what way do those forms do that what's the value associated that form on the on the path toward.

00:58:19.140 --> 00:58:22.710
Caleb Louden: being made holy and more like Christ and.

00:58:22.710 --> 00:58:29.280
Caleb Louden: Yes, and so I think there's a conversation to be had between those who for them.

00:58:29.790 --> 00:58:42.750
Caleb Louden: The traditional South HR is more resonant and for those who, for them, the more contemporary style is more resonant and then I also say in terms of the contemporary thing I feel like we're getting out of.

00:58:43.560 --> 00:58:51.750
Caleb Louden: one form of contemporary worship in that things are only you know the stuff is ultimately not all that perennial you know.

00:58:51.990 --> 00:58:53.310
Andy Miller III: What yeah yeah yeahs.

00:58:53.310 --> 00:58:54.210
Andy Miller III: On yep.

00:58:54.270 --> 00:58:58.770
Caleb Louden: And, and so there's even probably a new thing that's happening in turn.

00:58:58.770 --> 00:58:59.190
Andy Miller III: Right.

00:58:59.430 --> 00:59:02.520
Caleb Louden: of worship form and and something else to be.

00:59:03.540 --> 00:59:13.410
Caleb Louden: You know, discovered so yeah if we can be in conversation together, perhaps even if we're going to do something hybrid really think about the liturgical elements that.

00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:23.400
Caleb Louden: we've that, all together, and our worship committee works very hard at this at you know, making sure that in our hybrid meeting there's this sense of continuity and.

00:59:23.670 --> 00:59:35.370
Caleb Louden: yeah well yeah I think even for creatives and the Salvation Army there's still many opportunities, though, to kind of craft other forms of worship that provide links to amongst these different things.

00:59:36.570 --> 00:59:40.740
Caleb Louden: You know, sometimes we can have a narrow picture of what worship.

00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:53.550
Caleb Louden: looks like altogether relative to the great many expressions across the planet, I had the opportunity to go to Korea as a part of a scholarship received in seminary and to see.

00:59:54.300 --> 01:00:02.070
Caleb Louden: The largest churches in the world quantum Magnus church 90,000 members and then it, you know full Gospel 1.3 million members or something like that.

01:00:02.070 --> 01:00:08.490
Caleb Louden: amazing and one of the most beautiful things about Korean Christianity is there extemporaneous prayer together and.

01:00:08.490 --> 01:00:18.150
Caleb Louden: I lift up their hands and they yell together at the same time, Lord Lord lord and then they began to pray all at once, and it sounds like this rushing water, the sort.

01:00:18.210 --> 01:00:31.620
Caleb Louden: yeah moving through the whole sanctuary and you know so that's just an example of this kind of create a form that is resonant with that particular culture i'm not saying that every core officers listening, they should put down the program something.

01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:44.340
Caleb Louden: But at the same time, how can we continue to recast worship is searching for the value of a particular forum for the sake of Holiness.

01:00:44.550 --> 01:00:47.550
Andy Miller III: yeah oh man, what a great conclusion I think I probably needs.

01:00:47.610 --> 01:00:52.710
Andy Miller III: Out there that is so good, and I know i'm trying to create you into a there's a little bit of me that's trying to.

01:00:53.100 --> 01:00:54.450
Andy Miller III: Live vicariously through.

01:00:55.110 --> 01:00:57.090
Andy Miller III: So, like I just recognize that here.

01:00:57.180 --> 01:01:08.340
Andy Miller III: But I see things that I i've dropped about happening, and as a leader as a as an officer LEADER I wasn't able to always make that happen Eric.

01:01:08.640 --> 01:01:24.480
Andy Miller III: wasn't able to make that happen in the context of a congregation and I just i'm thankful that you have been sensitive the spirit calling you to be you know calling you to holiness yourself as a Community, but what you're doing so anyway, I just applaud you.

01:01:24.930 --> 01:01:27.180
Caleb Louden: That will thank you so one last thing just.

01:01:28.740 --> 01:01:30.210
Caleb Louden: kind of optimistic note.

01:01:30.390 --> 01:01:30.750
Andy Miller III: yeah I.

01:01:30.780 --> 01:01:35.430
Caleb Louden: Think it's saying this i'm being pollyanna ish or naive or whatever, but.

01:01:36.630 --> 01:01:41.400
Caleb Louden: I do want to say you know I often will hear Christians talking about decline.

01:01:41.520 --> 01:01:49.560
Caleb Louden: and talking about the state of the Church in the West as a whole and I, you know I think there is some value, maybe to that discussion.

01:01:50.310 --> 01:02:01.320
Caleb Louden: But I was reminded recently, and I think the spirit spoke to me that that's all totally not our business like we are not the Church has actually never end decline really.

01:02:01.470 --> 01:02:02.100
Andy Miller III: wow you know.

01:02:02.370 --> 01:02:04.260
Caleb Louden: The Church is victorious.

01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:12.600
Caleb Louden: A mega Gospel is true the tomb is empty Jesus is on the throne, and we have the opportunity to offer to folks life.

01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:18.840
Caleb Louden: For them to live to not be stuck in their death and in their sin and in their shame and.

01:02:19.230 --> 01:02:28.800
Caleb Louden: Other add in the enemies that everyone faces in life, and so you know if we continue to focus on the numerical decline of the Church.

01:02:28.830 --> 01:02:35.820
Caleb Louden: yeah we missed the fact that even when the church consisted of just 12 guys in that room.

01:02:36.270 --> 01:02:56.820
Caleb Louden: It was never in decline, it was never about the night, it was always about the reality of salvation for the world and that should be a message that continues to motivate us on and enable us to realize that we are more than conquerors and that nothing can stand against Christ bride.

01:02:57.270 --> 01:03:01.860
Andy Miller III: amen oh caleb what a great conclude, I am afraid to say another word after that.

01:03:02.850 --> 01:03:04.980
Andy Miller III: So good thanks so much for your time.

01:03:05.670 --> 01:03:09.990
Andy Miller III: To spend some time with you and look forward to seeing what comes from creekside and feature.

01:03:10.710 --> 01:03:11.790
Caleb Louden: Thank you so much.

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