Andy Miller III
Cover Image for Can Women Be Pastors? Dr. Murray Vasser

Can Women Be Pastors? Dr. Murray Vasser

July 14, 2022

Christians are divided on how to think through Scripture passages that seem to prohibit women from serving as pastors. Dr. Murray Vasser, adjunct professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary, and I work through this question on today’s podcast.

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Andy Miller III: This course called contender now onto today's content with Marie vassar.

welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm so glad you come along and you might have clicked on this, because you saw a really interesting title.

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Andy Miller III: To have on for a while.

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Andy Miller III: And that is Dr Murray vassar.

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Andy Miller III: Murray, welcome to the show.

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Murray Vasser: Thank you it's so great to be here and it's enjoyed your podcasts and it's a real privilege to be invited to be on.

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Andy Miller III: Thanks well Murray teachers with us at yc biblical seminary and adjunct capacity and other schools like indiana wesleyan.

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Andy Miller III: i'm just going to go ahead and put some of your credentials out there, you might want to might not want to talk about it but Murray, has done some great work and he has an.

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Andy Miller III: Outstanding website where you can find information articles that he shares on a regular basis, some continuing education pieces in Greek, but he studied with kind of two titans of the.

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Andy Miller III: evangelical movement and that kind of caught my attention with Ben witherington and Craig keener who directed his doctoral dissertation and who it was it was Andrew Lincoln on there as well, who else was your third person from England.

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Murray Vasser: john Barclay was the reader.

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Andy Miller III: And those of you know anything New Testament studies like you've got the Holy Trinity there of New Testament scholars so yeah That was really and you just finish your PhD in the last couple of years is that right Marie.

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Murray Vasser: that's right last year I graduated.

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Andy Miller III: We won't be able get into here, but just tell us a snapshot of your dissertation what you studied.

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Murray Vasser: sure what my dissertation What did the very controversial topic of slavery, particularly the discussions of the slave master relationships and those texts that are called the household codes.

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Murray Vasser: And right decisions so.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I love it.

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Murray Vasser: The topic of the dissertation.

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Andy Miller III: And i'd love for people just to get a quick summary of your trajectory toward the career that you're in now functioning as a scholar in a teacher.

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Andy Miller III: it's not your common path, like you, didn't go to go to Bible college serve in ministry go to you know not not the typical path because you have a interesting kind of other experience that I would love for people to hear about.

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Murray Vasser: Sure yeah well, so I started out as a mechanical engineer in the in the space industry, I worked on some satellite projects for a couple years and then I do ministry in my local church I just felt.

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Murray Vasser: That God was calling me to go in a completely different direction.

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Murray Vasser: So I left engineering and started seminary tablet School of Theology in southern California and.

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Murray Vasser: While I was going through seminary I was able to teach some physics classes at Viola and violin University, which is the university that talbot is associated with.

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Murray Vasser: And so that gave me a word for teaching and I really enjoyed my studies in the New Testament and decided to go on to a PhD I had asked her in pursue a career in the ology and teaching so yeah it's been a it's been a unexpected journey, but I really enjoyed it.

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Andy Miller III: So you're not exactly a rocket scientist, would you call yourself a rocket scientist okay.

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Andy Miller III: Now that's great and also it even in this discussion here I think it's helpful as we think about women in ministry and what goes a long with that is like I come from that where i've.

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Andy Miller III: primarily been in Westland institutions, so I went to both asbury.

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Andy Miller III: Institutions and wilmore I teach at Wesley biblical seminary i've been a part of the Salvation Army, I went to southern Methodist University, which is in the western tradition, though.

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Andy Miller III: Probably I mean I don't know, maybe surprise, a more liberal end of of that tradition so every every place i've always been.

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Andy Miller III: has been for women in ministry, but your backgrounds, a little different because you've come from institutions were not everybody would would agree with those same thing not that by Ola has like kind of like an.

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Andy Miller III: official statement, but certainly there's professors might be on both ends of the argument there and so we're going to talk about this, you had a very intriguing blog post to me is called why I changed my mind about women pastors and so.

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Andy Miller III: But before we get started in some of the exegetical pieces, I appreciate it at the very beginning of this article, you said, I remain sympathetic to the view.

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Andy Miller III: That new the New Testament prohibits the ordination of women that's a posture at the beginning of this article that I think is helpful, you want to talk about that.

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Murray Vasser: Sure, well, so you know, as you mentioned, I did not come from a background that I supported the ordination of women and actually grew up in a very conservative Baptist church, so, in line with.

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Murray Vasser: Churches for well Bob Jones university if you're familiar with that.

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Andy Miller III: yeah sure sure.

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Murray Vasser: shade with that stream of independent Baptist on so I recall once as an undergraduate at suitability university now cedar bill is itself a back to school and quite conservative.

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Murray Vasser: But it was still it's still exposed me to a wider range of Christianity, then I had had in my the Baptist church I grew up in, and I remember they're encountering.

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Murray Vasser: Someone who believed in the ordination of women and didn't think this is a problem, and I remember, being a bit scandalized like.

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Murray Vasser: Bible don't you know the you know the Bible says very clearly until I came from a background where I you know thought about it was quite clear on this, and you know, as I got went to seminary and learn more I came to see that there's more to the story.

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Andy Miller III: As you might say, oh there you go.

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Murray Vasser: I can see, the issue was more difficult, but still for for a long time, I thought that the.

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Murray Vasser: Case against the ordination of women was was really strong and convincing and so gradually, over time, i've come to to the conclusion that actually I don't think.

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Murray Vasser: The Bible prohibits this but, as I say, in the post, I remain sympathetic to on the complementarity and view the view that on there is.

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Murray Vasser: a limit on women in ministry, and the reason is simply because I i've struggled with these passages and i've seen that.

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Murray Vasser: On there are certainly strong arguments that can be made on both sides, and so I don't view this as a clear cut issue where you know if you believe the Bible you're definitely going to take this one position, I think.

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Andy Miller III: That right.

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Murray Vasser: Christians who believe the Bible can disagree they're both sides are struggling to rightly interpret and apply the Bible.

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Andy Miller III: yeah absolutely and those who are familiar with our podcast and follow it regularly might remember the conversation I had with Dr matt o'reilly where we talked about like kind of from the other end kind of the.

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Andy Miller III: And I even struggle Murray just what it's worth, but even the complementarity egalitarian nomenclature.

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Andy Miller III: Because there's a way that I affirm the compliment Perry roles.

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Andy Miller III: Of the human body, it like with the differences between men and women, and I want to emphasize that the same time, like I affirm.

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Andy Miller III: A women in ministry, but sometimes if I say depends on where I am if I say i'm a Gal attarian well that might.

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Andy Miller III: come with other assumptions and the same thing true if I say i'm a complimentary, and so I generally almost almost avoid that language but just for the sake of.

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Andy Miller III: of saying something concisely here on the complimentary inside there's a group of people who called out the orthodoxy, or even the ability to claim like.

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Andy Miller III: The word in there and see for people who is still a firm women in ministry, and that would be the case for.

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Andy Miller III: My institution like pretty every professor at Leslie biblical seminary would affirm the role of women of women being pastors but at the same time we also all.

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Andy Miller III: firm and currency, so that can't be true so matt Reilly I talked about that from that side, but I like hearing it too I have, I have seen it.

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Andy Miller III: From the kind of evangelical Wesley inside where we treat those who still prohibit women in ministry, as if they're not Christians, you know as if they just don't they they're unenlightened people and all of a sudden, we started acting.

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Andy Miller III: In funny way so i'm glad to see you guys start the conversation that way like we need to have sympathy on both sides of this conversation be charitable.

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Murray Vasser: towards each other absolutely and, as you mentioned, you see this problem on both sides, where you know somebody out inside will paint a complimentary instance.

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Murray Vasser: You know they're just out to oppress women, and you know, on the carpet complimentary inside, you see, sometimes people think this is the egalitarians don't.

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Murray Vasser: I don't respect the authority of scripture something like that and, of course, both those extremes are should be avoided, as you say, we need humility and charity in this discussion.

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Andy Miller III: yeah well I think you'll see more of that those who follow, along with what we're talking about in this in this podcast now, before we get into content I forgot the one announcements also say.

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Andy Miller III: And that is in July you're going to see some resources coming out from me as i'm trying to we're putting out a study of the little book of jude just a 25 verses in jude so I needed to let people like I.

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Andy Miller III: need to be remind remind myself this is coming out you're going to see it at my website.

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Andy Miller III: And i'm excited about Maria i'd love to talk about jude some time to.

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Andy Miller III: i'm sure you have some things to save there.

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Andy Miller III: So okay let's get into your discussion here the very first thing you talked about what changed your view what helped you that kind of three main points, the first is.

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Andy Miller III: The role of prophecy in the New Testament church and so talking about this, because this is often with the way we interact with.

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Andy Miller III: The charismatic renewal and these type of things, the role of the Prophet is often misunderstood as a spiritual gift or something that's used edify the church So what do you mean by profit in the first place.

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Murray Vasser: Great yeah well.

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Murray Vasser: There, first of all, just to one point here, that is just indisputable that women did have this role of profit in the early church so, for example, we have one in profits mentioned specifically in acts 21 verse nine.

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Murray Vasser: on the dotted.

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Murray Vasser: Philip we have in Peters sermon at Pentecost he.

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Murray Vasser: References the passage from Joel.

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Murray Vasser: It speaks to both men and women prop sign an end in significant ways we'll talk about more i'm sure is in first Corinthians 11 Paul mentioned two women prophesied and so on, you know there's discussion on.

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Murray Vasser: run because of Romans 16 seven something that Paul says in Romans Romans whether or not women held the role of apostle.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Murray Vasser: The beta with that and it's very interesting discussion, but it's absolutely certain that women were prophets.

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Murray Vasser: So then, you know what is the significance of that well what you know I I grew up, as I said in the Baptist church that was very much a sensationalist church they didn't believe in the gifts of tongues and.

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Murray Vasser: healing miracles, and that sort of thing, and so the talk of prophecy was often treated as something that was no longer.

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Murray Vasser: present in the church and something that was.

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Murray Vasser: More just foretelling the future and something that happened in the past, but as I got you know deeper into the New Testament I came to see that prophecy was really.

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Murray Vasser: Something that was very important in the early church and it involves I exhortation teaching not not simply foretelling the future.

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Murray Vasser: And this is especially clear and first Corinthians 14 so Paul there is dealing with the issue of tongues and he makes the case that, but you know well, he speaks in tongues and while he's not opposed to tongues he wishes more that the corinthian believers with prophesied.

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Andy Miller III: And I.

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Murray Vasser: gives us his reasons for why, and if you read through that chapters he makes so many statements to the effect of the.

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Murray Vasser: prophets encourage the church they struck the church they teach the church people learn from from what the prophets say.

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Murray Vasser: And so, putting those things together, that there are limited profits and that prophecy involved this.

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Murray Vasser: sort of activity in the weekly gathering of the Christians It just seems to me inescapable that's in the early church women regularly stood up and gave exploitation and instruction to the whole Assembly.

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Andy Miller III: yeah i'd encourage people throughout this podcast this might be one where it'd be great for you to grab your bibles just to look at your Bible open up your Bible, so you can see what's happened so as we're looking.

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Andy Miller III: At these passages first Corinthians 14 I think that that would be a helpful one we're going to get on that we're going to keep in.

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Andy Miller III: First Corinthians 14 as well, so the role of profits is interesting because, like in the tradition throughout the centuries.

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Andy Miller III: That maybe wasn't as misunderstood, for instance in my tradition and in the West in holiness church as a whole, we would often have and this goes across denominations i've been surprised.

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Andy Miller III: As i've gotten to know more of the smaller holiness movement churches denominations, there were often things, called schools for profits.

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Andy Miller III: And that was the case for the early Salvation Army as well, like we had a.

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Andy Miller III: group, like a training program called schools for profit but, but it was this this idea, it might even be that what we think of a pastor in our time the function of a pastor was what is described in New Testament as a profit is that the case, do you think that's the case.

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Murray Vasser: yeah you know when we in first Corinthians 14 we get this window into what a neo typical weekly gathering look like in the corinthian church and it seems like a bunch of people are standing up you know, one after the other, and.

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Murray Vasser: sharing a word of encouragement and or application and that could be a little bit hard for us to wrap our minds around because that's in most of our churches that's just not the way things work one.

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Murray Vasser: right person the pastor gets up and speaks and everyone else just sit quietly taking notes.

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Murray Vasser: And you know i'm not.

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Murray Vasser: here to say that's wrong or we should try to re duplicate what was done before, but it seems clear, however, you you look at it, that the prophets were fulfilling many of the functions that that the pastor in our context fulfills and exhorting in a shock to be congregation.

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Andy Miller III: Right, so this is what the challenge when it comes to us, then, as we look at this and we look at this material if people are functioning as prophets and if profits.

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Andy Miller III: are building up encouraging exhorting doing these things in the context of worship, then, how do we think about this within the wider canonical dialogue.

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Andy Miller III: With conversation like when when there are clear instructions to say women should not speak.

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Andy Miller III: Right, so this that's we put these pieces together and so somebody say oh that's just a contradiction, or you know someone one and just say, well, I just disagree with Paul you know I just don't don't don't think he's right.

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Andy Miller III: But do you do you think we can come to a way of synthesizing these instructions, then.

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Murray Vasser: Yes, I think we can yeah We certainly don't those of us who are evangelicalism don't want to just disagree with ballsy he's wrong about this and we're going to ignore what he said and we want to take take this all seriously.

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Murray Vasser: Of course.

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Murray Vasser: We believe that there is a unified message in the Bible, and where.

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Murray Vasser: Well yeah absolutely I mean i've heard some say.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, some people, naturally, and I think by like.

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Andy Miller III: Natural natural law or organ arguments.

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Andy Miller III: come to a place of affirming women in ministry they see it's effective spirit use it, they might see some some particular passages but i've heard some say.

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Andy Miller III: evangelicals who may be who haven't been educated in kind of like a with hermit like a hermeneutics approach like inductive Bible study.

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Andy Miller III: They might say, well you know, Paul paul's not as important as Jesus and say hold up like well, let me let you respond to that when somebody says that and one of your classes that how it, how would you respond.

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Murray Vasser: Sure, well, I think that is a is a serious mistake.

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Murray Vasser: It maybe it would be helpful at this point, remember that we don't have a book that Jesus wrote.

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Murray Vasser: The Gospels were written by followers of Jesus, and so they.

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Murray Vasser: Even in the Gospels were hearing, I you know interpretation and teaching from the followers of Jesus and the doctrine of the inspiration of scripture.

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Murray Vasser: tells us that that the the words of scripture have been God breathed and that they are the words that God wanted to to write so.

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Murray Vasser: The fact that you know we have these documents that weren't written by Jesus himself and doesn't take away from from their authority, if we accept the Christian teaching on the inspiration of scripture.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, absolutely it's really helpful and we see to within the process of the way that that the scripture has come to be part of the canon is even Peter in his letters ends up saying that paul's letters themselves are scripture so like we see this in the New Testament self.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Murray Vasser: it's a very significant passage there where he says that they some people it's interesting that he he acknowledges that paul's letters can be hard to understand.

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Andy Miller III: And that's right.

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Murray Vasser: He says that some people twist then as they do the rest of scripture so clearly identifying paul's writings as part of scripture.

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Andy Miller III: So there is that canonization process, we see already beginning to happen within the life of the early church.

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Andy Miller III: So that's really helped, so we have the role of profits as something that helped you like, one of the reasons you made a switch anything else you want to say about the role of profits and women who serve this profits.

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Murray Vasser: One more point on that not only does the New Testament description of profits lead us to believe that women were.

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Murray Vasser: instructing and exhorting the Community, there is also interesting because the, the question of authority will come up in this specifically when we get to first Timothy.

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Murray Vasser: And it's interesting on the question of authority to know how Paul ranks the gifts, there are two times when Paul gives this ranging and in both cases he puts profits second right under apostles and above other roles, so I think that that indicates that the prophets held a.

00:20:32.610 --> 00:20:42.570
Murray Vasser: some level of authority in the early church, and so I think we need to keep that in mind as well when we're thinking about the significance of women serving as prophets.

00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:53.880
Andy Miller III: Yes, I remember you talking about the apostles and prophets the day the very clear day, where I was sitting in both of our shared teacher Ben will during his class on Romans.

00:20:54.270 --> 00:21:03.270
Andy Miller III: And when he took about two hours and walked us through Romans 16 okay and they're just some clear mountain you address this earlier and you just.

00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:15.360
Andy Miller III: mentioned the citation but of have somebody of likely, a woman being called an apostle in Romans 16 and there's referring to andronicus in junior.

00:21:15.690 --> 00:21:24.630
Andy Miller III: or June, yes, like that's the tension is rather than jr is a man or a woman, but why is so interesting to me in that passage i've always appreciated in love is like.

00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:29.760
Andy Miller III: A Paul is saying that they they were in Christ before I was, and they are some.

00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:46.500
Andy Miller III: exemplary amongst the apostles but he says they were in Christ before I was so these like and he he had been whether he thinks that andronicus could be Andrew the Apostle Andrew and also then think search some other folks to have some.

00:21:47.880 --> 00:22:00.870
Andy Miller III: Some theories about who dunia could be but there she called an apostle but then you also have phoebe in verse one of Chapter 16 called a deacon so I just while we're while while you mentioned that path, did you want to say anything else about.

00:22:02.100 --> 00:22:02.880
Andy Miller III: Romans 16.

00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:13.710
Murray Vasser: yeah well there there, there are two issues here, the first is is junior a woman, and the second is is Julia called an apostle.

00:22:14.790 --> 00:22:24.180
Murray Vasser: So the first question seems to be pretty clear, it does seem to be clear that jr is a one there's been a suggestion that this is an abbreviation of a male name.

00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:36.630
Murray Vasser: But that doesn't seem to be very, very likely from from the evidence that we have now, the question is jr identifies it possible that probably more difficult question the.

00:22:38.280 --> 00:22:48.330
Murray Vasser: question is how do we render this great phrase and i'll give you two examples of different translations here, the new revised standard version describes.

00:22:48.870 --> 00:23:03.870
Murray Vasser: These to include in Judea as prominent among the apostles case of that suggests that they are, they are apostles on the ESB, on the other hand, I guess the other understanding of this and renders it well known to the apostles.

00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:05.130
Murray Vasser: hmm so.

00:23:06.990 --> 00:23:18.180
Murray Vasser: The idea here on this understand the passage is that possibly saying that they these people are known to the apostles not there, they are the apostles now you know.

00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:31.830
Murray Vasser: scholars are divided on this, it does seem to be a strong case can be made for understanding this as junior being one of the apostles but I, I acknowledge that.

00:23:31.860 --> 00:23:36.750
Murray Vasser: That point is disputed, but I think it's certainly a strong case can be made for that.

00:23:38.190 --> 00:23:44.340
Andy Miller III: yeah I think that's helpful here and again you hear the charity and talk to my audience here you hear the charity that.

00:23:44.610 --> 00:23:51.960
Andy Miller III: Murray, has years he's saying that like they're both could be the case, and I think that's as we approach this we put peace to gather all this data.

00:23:52.200 --> 00:24:03.300
Andy Miller III: that's how we come to our conclusion we don't bring our presuppositions forward we don't say all right, we want have women in ministry therefore we're going to interpret the text this way, instead, this is why we.

00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:14.010
Andy Miller III: Study Greek, this is why we look at the historical context, this is why you might want to come to Wesley biblical seminary right because we want to look into the process and we'll see where the text leads us.

00:24:14.310 --> 00:24:18.570
Andy Miller III: So I think that that's an important piece to keep in mind as we're working through this.

00:24:19.020 --> 00:24:30.390
Murray Vasser: yeah i'm glad you you bring that up because so often it's easy to approach Bible studies is like Okay, I have my view on this now, how can I make the text agree with.

00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:44.520
Murray Vasser: You know, find an interpretation of this that agrees with what I already believe so it's really important and difficult, but we need to be going through the scriptures to listen to what they have to say to us and be willing to be challenged in our beliefs.

00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:55.680
Andy Miller III: And I think that's why it's important now i'm not a New Testament scholar, but it will come within the realm of Theology is where I sit more in humble medical theology to think about like.

00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:10.140
Andy Miller III: Establishing our doctrine of Revelation at the start, like how has God revealed itself in my tradition, it does that by affirming the scriptures of the old New Testament as a basis for how we understand the Ark our faith like.

00:25:10.650 --> 00:25:17.640
Andy Miller III: So, as we think about what Christianity is, we need to define that within the context of how God has revealed himself.

00:25:17.910 --> 00:25:27.660
Andy Miller III: in space and time and so as we start with, we started that foundation, then other things will follow from that of course we want to be cautious, like always bring things back.

00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:35.850
Andy Miller III: I think sometimes we can be looked at as though we are narrow minded in this, but no like it starts with this foundation.

00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:49.140
Andy Miller III: In and then we're willing to argue and work through to find the best interpretation I think that's what you've helped us do here, as you think about women in ministry, do you want to comment I any on the doctrine of Revelation as I just barely death my toe in there.

00:25:49.980 --> 00:26:03.840
Murray Vasser: Oh, I just to say that I agree with you on that, I think that's it's very important to be coming back to the scripture and having that as our foundation, as we wrestle with these with these issues, I think it's a minute and just add one point here.

00:26:03.870 --> 00:26:10.230
Murray Vasser: yeah it's good to have humility in this, you know oftentimes you get the impression.

00:26:11.520 --> 00:26:31.770
Murray Vasser: That some some folks kind of think that the modern view is kind of discovered the truth or modern or modern cultural views, and so the Bible need to somehow be brought up to speed with with the modern view, but I think we need to keep in mind the modern view might not be correct.

00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:40.440
Murray Vasser: Perhaps, maybe even under the influence of my evolutionary theory and biology and people sort of get this idea that.

00:26:40.890 --> 00:26:52.740
Murray Vasser: humanity is just constantly progressing and that the ideas of today are always superior to the ideas of tomorrow and I don't think that's necessarily the case and as Christians, I think it's very important that we.

00:26:53.640 --> 00:27:03.420
Murray Vasser: be continually going back to the Bible, and the revelation of God in the scriptures and allowing that to inform our views on these difficult topics.

00:27:04.050 --> 00:27:13.200
Andy Miller III: Now you come to Bible, as in part it's your profession, like you're you're a biblical scholar, but i'm curious Mary what it before we get on to the.

00:27:13.830 --> 00:27:25.470
Andy Miller III: Next, two arguments your own personal devotional life like, how do you how do you come to scripture because it might be complicated because there it's your job innocence, but how What do you do personally to come to scripture.

00:27:26.040 --> 00:27:27.900
Murray Vasser: yeah well it's great question it's.

00:27:29.520 --> 00:27:37.200
Murray Vasser: My devotional life has looked different over the years right I currently I have two boys ages, two and three, and so.

00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:50.250
Murray Vasser: Man has given me less time in my life in this very busy season of my life i've relied a lot on listening to the Bible on audio as I, you know, do the dishes are clean the House.

00:27:51.090 --> 00:28:01.200
Murray Vasser: In other seasons of my life, I really spent a lot of kind of memorization I used to be part of memorization clubs and we get together and memorize.

00:28:02.610 --> 00:28:06.510
Murray Vasser: Big chunks of scripture so that was something that was really helpful for me.

00:28:07.650 --> 00:28:18.300
Murray Vasser: Of course, the since, as you say, it is my job, I have to stay up to date in the languages, so I try to incorporate that a little bit of that every day just looking at.

00:28:18.780 --> 00:28:32.220
Murray Vasser: The Greek and Hebrew um so yeah it's changed depending on my season of life, but right now I really appreciated audio listen and be able to listen to the Bible and audio as I, as I do chores.

00:28:32.670 --> 00:28:38.010
Andy Miller III: So let's go into memorization that you have to comes in handy if you're changing diapers Now you can can.

00:28:38.670 --> 00:28:41.190
Andy Miller III: Now you have any diapers a two year old, are you out of diapers yet.

00:28:41.610 --> 00:28:42.450
Murray Vasser: No, not yet.

00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:50.340
Andy Miller III: Okay bless you I had seven and a half straight years in diapers so we're not me not me personally, but where I was changing them.

00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:53.670
Andy Miller III: This too shall pass.

00:28:54.030 --> 00:28:54.510
Andy Miller III: OK, the.

00:28:55.080 --> 00:28:56.730
Andy Miller III: next thing we want to talk about is we're going to.

00:28:56.730 --> 00:29:00.390
Andy Miller III: Look at first Corinthians 1434 through 35.

00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:07.590
Andy Miller III: Now this is going to be challenging folks if you haven't taken a class like in a New Testament introduction because and so before we get into it.

00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:17.430
Andy Miller III: Mary could you tell us what the discipline is of text criticism like as we look at that that might help us before we enter in discussion of this passage.

00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:23.970
Murray Vasser: Sure well the the original letter that Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth.

00:29:24.630 --> 00:29:35.730
Murray Vasser: The actual paper and ink that he sent them has not survived all we have a copies and for thousands of years, or for hundreds of years over 1000 years these copies were made by hand.

00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:44.820
Murray Vasser: And as that happens scribes sometimes made mistakes, sometimes even made intentional alter alterations to the text.

00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:49.980
Murray Vasser: And so, this is the situation that's gives rise to the discipline of textual criticism.

00:29:50.400 --> 00:30:00.480
Murray Vasser: And textual criticism is the discipline of looking through the various manuscripts that we have available to us, we have over 5000 Greek manuscripts of.

00:30:01.230 --> 00:30:09.450
Murray Vasser: The New Testament we also have citations in the church fathers and we have other ancient translations like translations into Latin and.

00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:14.130
Murray Vasser: Syriac and Coptic, and so we have all these different ways of.

00:30:15.540 --> 00:30:24.930
Murray Vasser: attending to reconstruct the text and arrive at what the original wording was and so that's the discipline of text criticism nothing.

00:30:26.010 --> 00:30:28.530
Murray Vasser: We can we can talk about that more perhaps as we go on.

00:30:29.070 --> 00:30:36.450
Andy Miller III: No it's good it's helpful keep that mindset when people if you happen to see a Greek New Testament if you look at it and you open it up you'll see.

00:30:36.780 --> 00:30:45.210
Andy Miller III: Even if you don't read Greek right, you can look at it and you can see that there's many footnotes throughout the whole thing and half of the page likely is filled up.

00:30:45.510 --> 00:30:55.620
Andy Miller III: With footnotes and that's indicating like what the Greek New Testament that you would see around the various versions are consolidation or it correct me if i'm saying this error, I could say this better Murray.

00:30:56.250 --> 00:31:03.000
Andy Miller III: Like a resource that brings together all of these textual traditions, so you can see them in one place.

00:31:03.540 --> 00:31:11.430
Murray Vasser: Yes, and that's very helpful to know, because there's often confusion in the general public that because of this process of.

00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:24.180
Murray Vasser: scribes copying the New Testament that the text has been lost, but I while sometimes scholars disagree or often scholars disagree about what the correct word genius and a particular passage.

00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:29.820
Murray Vasser: On the options are all there in the Ad you what you're describing is called the textual apparatus.

00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:46.770
Murray Vasser: But it's just the different variant readings and so you know it's true that occasionally scholars will disagree on what the correct reading is but the options are right there in the textual apparatus, as far as what the different readings are that surviving the manuscript tradition.

00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:51.270
Andy Miller III: And so, if you haven't become in touch with this like this is a helpful thing to.

00:31:51.810 --> 00:32:06.990
Andy Miller III: Think through so as you hear what Murray, is going to say now about these passages so you've seen like there's a case that first Corinthians 1434 and 35 might not be authentically a part of the original letter so let's talk through that.

00:32:07.260 --> 00:32:10.470
Murray Vasser: Sure um, and so I want to say first of all that.

00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:13.200
Murray Vasser: This is a tough issue.

00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:15.180
Murray Vasser: clear cut.

00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:25.140
Murray Vasser: And I don't think, in my opinion, I don't think that the argument against are the argument for women in ministry depends on taking the view that I take.

00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:35.370
Murray Vasser: On that these verses are probably not authentic probably not from Paul, there are many scholars, who do accept these verses as football and he nevertheless.

00:32:36.090 --> 00:32:55.440
Murray Vasser: Do not think that they prohibit or they constitute a universal for all time prohibition of women in ministry roles So there we can talk about that, but in, in my view, I very tentatively think that these verses are probably not.

00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:07.500
Murray Vasser: authentic and probably not from Paul and there are some reasons for that, firstly, probably, perhaps most significantly.

00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:17.610
Murray Vasser: In context, these verses seem to prohibit women from speaking on it specifically from prophesied in the Church.

00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:34.800
Murray Vasser: This these verses comment, right at the close of paul's discussion in first Corinthians 14 about prophecy which we mentioned earlier on, and add taken at face value they seem to require women to be silent and not to speak up or prophesied.

00:33:34.800 --> 00:33:35.910
Murray Vasser: In these gatherings.

00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:45.330
Murray Vasser: And that's a problem because in first Corinthians 11 five so just a few chapters earlier Paul explicitly says that.

00:33:45.630 --> 00:33:55.440
Murray Vasser: Women pray and prophesied in the church and he in this in that discussion in Chapter 11 he argues that they need to wear head coverings when they do this.

00:33:55.980 --> 00:34:10.410
Murray Vasser: Which is a whole nother discussion, but he seems to assume that they will be prophesied and and praying and these galleries so that's one problem here is, it seems to conflict with what Paul said earlier, a second point to note is that.

00:34:10.830 --> 00:34:30.120
Murray Vasser: These verses seem like a bit of an intrusion into paul's argument if you if you remove those verses on you, the flow of paul's argument seems to work better, the verse that comes immediately prior to these two verses matches well with the verse that comes immediately after.

00:34:30.990 --> 00:34:36.630
Andy Miller III: We want to read these like even just read, I can read and IV, or if you have your your translation there.

00:34:37.680 --> 00:34:38.790
Andy Miller III: That yeah.

00:34:39.030 --> 00:34:46.110
Murray Vasser: street, so the new American standard Bible here, these two verses first Corinthians 1434 35.

00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:58.800
Murray Vasser: i'm say this, let the women keep silent and the churches, but they are not permitted to speak but let them subject themselves as the law says that they desire to learn anything like the master and husbands at home, for it is improper for a woman to speak.

00:34:58.830 --> 00:35:00.810
Murray Vasser: In church okay.

00:35:01.770 --> 00:35:05.730
Andy Miller III: So you're saying that that the flow of paul's argument.

00:35:06.870 --> 00:35:11.640
Andy Miller III: is more lucid or it's more connected if those verses are taken out.

00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:19.380
Murray Vasser: It seems to be to me, yes, so I can read you what it would sound like if those.

00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:26.490
Murray Vasser: Your new so here i'm going to read straight from verse 33 to 36 give me those two verses I just read in the middle.

00:35:27.150 --> 00:35:35.700
Murray Vasser: i'm so we're starting in verse 33 for God is not a god of confusion, but a piece as an all the churches, of the saints or was it from you that the word of God first one.

00:35:36.030 --> 00:35:42.750
Murray Vasser: Has it come to you only so in verse 33 he references all the other churches and in verse.

00:35:43.080 --> 00:35:53.970
Murray Vasser: 36 he's like hey it's not it's not like you guys are the Center of the universe here is not like this, all came from you guys think about you know the other churches here, so these two verses seem to fit together so well.

00:35:55.080 --> 00:36:05.340
Andy Miller III: yeah so, so this is it, this might be challenging people because i'm just gonna throw the the the cheap argument your way, and that is oh you don't like those verses so you just cut them out.

00:36:06.600 --> 00:36:19.740
Murray Vasser: I yes well you know, as I want one thing i'd point out here is that if these verses are not just a problem for those who have firm women in ministry those who.

00:36:20.430 --> 00:36:31.920
Murray Vasser: Are in the complimentary and camp, also have to struggle to explain how these verses can be understood, with what how how they can be reconciled with what Paul said in Chapter 11.

00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:41.760
Murray Vasser: and so on, as I said, it seems to me that the straightforward reading of these verses is that women are just to be silent and the gatherings and are supposed to speak but.

00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:53.100
Murray Vasser: No one really takes that view because of what Paul says in first Corinthians 11 so everyone has to say, well, this is only talking about certain type certain kinds of speech.

00:36:53.430 --> 00:37:07.980
Murray Vasser: And so there are different proposals that have been offered, but the the recognition that these verses do causing us some degree of tension with what Paul said earlier, is seeing across the board, whether your commentary or y'all Syrian.

00:37:08.700 --> 00:37:17.100
Andy Miller III: So it's likely that there's not they're not people who very many very few denominations or church traditions would affirm this like.

00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:27.900
Andy Miller III: We actually practically live this out why we're where women are completely silent in church and what would you say about women who are single like are they never asked a question anywhere like So where are they supposed to go.

00:37:29.130 --> 00:37:30.330
Andy Miller III: there's that side of it.

00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:39.930
Andy Miller III: But then I so so how i've interpreted these passages through the years is i've looked at the big picture of what's going on throughout scripture.

00:37:40.290 --> 00:37:47.820
Andy Miller III: And the trajectory towards women leadership i've looked at, you know women prophesied all the passages from Romans 16 that we've talked about.

00:37:48.060 --> 00:37:55.830
Andy Miller III: And then, when I get here I just assumed, and this has been been my take is like not not ever even thinking about the textual text critical issues.

00:37:56.160 --> 00:38:09.210
Andy Miller III: i've just thought this has to be contextually focus this has to be context ballot, there must be something going on here, but you might you're suggesting that they might not even be a part of the original context.

00:38:10.140 --> 00:38:18.660
Murray Vasser: Yes, yeah and but i'm glad you bring up that point and because I I think if they are part of that point on, in some sense it might even make.

00:38:18.930 --> 00:38:25.950
Murray Vasser: The egalitarian a stronger, because then you're really forced to assume that there is something going on here.

00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:34.680
Murray Vasser: Because of the conflict with Chapter 11 verse five, and so there is, you know we can't just stick with a straightforward reading there, there is something else going on but.

00:38:35.490 --> 00:38:44.280
Murray Vasser: There has to be some sort of limitation on this, to make it align with what Paul says in verse five but yes for myself, I do, as I said, tentatively.

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:48.660
Murray Vasser: believe that the evidence weighs against the authenticity of these verses.

00:38:49.050 --> 00:39:04.710
Murray Vasser: Now of course there's a very powerful argument for accepting the authenticity of these verses, and that is this if they appear in all the manuscripts that we have we don't have a manuscript in which they are absent now this.

00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:11.940
Murray Vasser: Speaking again to the issue of textual criticism, this is actually a good verse to talk about for those who are struggling with.

00:39:12.690 --> 00:39:22.710
Murray Vasser: The idea that somehow the new Testaments been corrupted because of this process of scrabble transmission and you know, often in the popular thinking on this as a layman who aren't.

00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:32.730
Murray Vasser: And you'll have a knowledge of the Greek and haven't stayed this out, the idea is that sort of the New Testament has been hopelessly corrupted and we don't know what it says, but in actuality.

00:39:33.390 --> 00:39:42.660
Murray Vasser: scars are extremely hesitant to accept the view that there was a change made it to the text that affected all of the managers, we have.

00:39:42.900 --> 00:39:55.770
Murray Vasser: And that the original reading isn't preserved in any of the manuscripts that survive that is recognized it's very unlikely possibility and so that's why so many people are are hesitant to accept.

00:39:56.610 --> 00:40:15.840
Murray Vasser: or two to reject the authenticity of these verses despite the significant internal evidence that I discussed that either contradiction with less than five against these verses on so I, in response to that argument that that these verses appear in all of the manuscripts that we have.

00:40:17.070 --> 00:40:24.870
Murray Vasser: There is there are manuscripts in which the order is that these verses are placed in a different position in the text.

00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:26.580
Murray Vasser: Okay, oh it's.

00:40:28.110 --> 00:40:33.540
Murray Vasser: Gordon fee and and others have argued that the best explanation for this is that.

00:40:34.020 --> 00:40:42.840
Murray Vasser: These verses originated as a scribe insertion in the in the margin and that later scribe didn't know where to place it in the text.

00:40:43.350 --> 00:40:48.210
Murray Vasser: And that's why we have this issue of it being placed in different locations in the text.

00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:57.510
Murray Vasser: Now, because it appears in all of our manuscripts we do have to say that if this was an addition, it was a very early edition copy very.

00:40:57.900 --> 00:41:17.310
Murray Vasser: To to have affected all of our manuscripts but if these verses are not authentic and if they weren't added by scribe it's not correct to say that no trace of this has been left in the manuscript tradition, because we do have this displacement of these verses in the manuscript tradition.

00:41:18.570 --> 00:41:24.600
Murray Vasser: No well, let me see if I can really articulate what you just said so in the traditional like it's a part, like these verses are part.

00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:36.750
Andy Miller III: Of all of the textual traditions that we have, but it might have been a scribe insertion maybe kind of like on the side like this is maybe anachronistic, but on the margin, so to speak.

00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:47.850
Andy Miller III: Maybe pertaining to a particular situation, who knows, but it's become a part of this, but it's not like completely certain that this would have been exactly in this place in the tradition.

00:41:48.990 --> 00:41:51.360
Murray Vasser: Yes, it's not completely certain that it.

00:41:52.560 --> 00:42:08.070
Murray Vasser: That these verses are authentic because of this displacement test, it is possible that this was a scribe insertion and that the scribes because it was originally founded the margins they didn't know where to put it in a text and subscribe to chose different locations.

00:42:08.790 --> 00:42:16.080
Andy Miller III: So what's this scenario, with why a scribe hey This is, of course, we don't know the answer this question, but why we describe.

00:42:16.350 --> 00:42:24.330
Andy Miller III: In make an insertion like Why would they put this here like that that brings up the question because wouldn't that make it less consistent with the rest of the letter.

00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:33.930
Murray Vasser: On yes that's so that's a good question, obviously, we can only speculate if this is indeed what happened, we can only speculate now sometimes.

00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:50.760
Murray Vasser: It seems that sort of explanatory notes were added or kind of commentary on the side and it's sometimes these were mistaken by later scribes as part of the text, and so it could be that it's something like that some sort of explanatory note that's trying to.

00:42:52.170 --> 00:42:56.100
Murray Vasser: align this with what we read in first Timothy which I assume we'll get to.

00:42:56.250 --> 00:42:56.820
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

00:42:57.690 --> 00:43:04.710
Murray Vasser: So that the idea would be to describe a sort of under the influence of what was said in first Timothy and what's bringing that over to this passage.

00:43:05.610 --> 00:43:09.690
Murray Vasser: Now, on the text critical issue I did want to mention just a couple of things.

00:43:09.720 --> 00:43:10.470
Andy Miller III: on this earth.

00:43:10.590 --> 00:43:23.310
Murray Vasser: And there is a scholar on the pain Philip Philip pain and he has argued that there are in some manuscripts there are markings that indicate that.

00:43:23.850 --> 00:43:40.380
Murray Vasser: The the scribes who produced that manuscripts were unsure the text because they had access to to manuscripts that did not have it now that's correct that would be extremely strong and good evidence in favor of.

00:43:41.730 --> 00:43:51.870
Murray Vasser: not consuming these verses authentic because that would indicate a week that there were many scripts that did not have these verses um, but I am my impression here is that pains arguments have not.

00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:54.780
Murray Vasser: One wide.

00:43:55.950 --> 00:44:05.610
Murray Vasser: wide acceptance that they have been challenged significantly but listen, there should be aware that that discussion is is happening we're in.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:18.720
Murray Vasser: The debate just concerns how do we interpret these markings that we find in manuscripts and again pains argument has been that some of these indicates that the scribes were unsure about this verse are these two verses because they weren't.

00:44:20.310 --> 00:44:22.230
Murray Vasser: found in some of the manuscripts they were easy.

00:44:23.040 --> 00:44:31.260
Andy Miller III: that's great I think like you're presenting this holistic argument, though kind of thinking about how this how we look at these various passage throughout the New Testament.

00:44:31.830 --> 00:44:39.030
Andy Miller III: And like even without this data, I feel like people have solid ground to move forward with thinking of women in ministry, even just based upon.

00:44:39.330 --> 00:44:47.700
Andy Miller III: The role of prophecy you said, but this is kind of presenting more of a cumulative case like as we add these pieces up anything else you want to say about first Corinthians before you move on.

00:44:49.080 --> 00:44:55.140
Murray Vasser: yeah a couple things I one thing that interested me that, so the net Bible is a really helpful translation.

00:44:55.170 --> 00:44:55.860
Andy Miller III: Yes.

00:44:55.890 --> 00:45:03.330
Murray Vasser: there's a lot of nose very detailed notes about issues of Greek and Hebrew translation and text critical issues.

00:45:03.630 --> 00:45:16.500
Murray Vasser: And it's produced by scholars that are associated Dallas theological seminary I believe and come generally from a communitarian point of view, so they take on all these few passages date they take the be complimentary position.

00:45:16.890 --> 00:45:27.510
Murray Vasser: But I thought it was interesting that, on this passage on prescriptions they actually suggest that this was a a note that was added in the margin, but it was added by Paul himself.

00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:45.030
Murray Vasser: Okay, I don't think that's very likely, but I just the fact that the Bible takes that view, I think, indicates that there is really a strong case to be made for understanding these as not being part of the original letter but as a later insertion in the margin.

00:45:46.050 --> 00:46:02.700
Murray Vasser: You know it's not just people who who don't like these verses and want to get rid of them there is there are some real problems here that would lead even even the translators in that battle to suggest that maybe maybe that was an assertion, but just say that Paul didn't and so.

00:46:03.210 --> 00:46:16.320
Andy Miller III: Oh yeah Let me give me a call I know you have something else to say that my my listeners really check out the net Bible, you can find it on the Net as well, but it is a is a great resource and you can find all these exegetical tools are these.

00:46:17.520 --> 00:46:23.070
Andy Miller III: Translation tools on there as well, but, and you can get a printed version as well, but it's incredibly thick.

00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:32.190
Andy Miller III: If you get the printed version but it gives so much information as to what's going on and and translation and why they've made decisions, most of the time.

00:46:32.430 --> 00:46:44.400
Andy Miller III: you're not going to find you'll find like the most controversial issues covered say in them in lt are they an IV nsp like you'll find like when you see the footnotes know that probably means like.

00:46:45.090 --> 00:46:56.970
Andy Miller III: hundreds and hundreds of pages of scholarly discussion so when you see any footnotes there, but the net Bible gives you their translation perspective on most passages its outstanding.

00:46:57.120 --> 00:47:08.400
Murray Vasser: It really is I just to echo that Andy I, you know as someone who's in New Testament scholarship I very rarely come across an issue that is not treated at some depth in the New Testament in the new.

00:47:09.060 --> 00:47:13.740
Murray Vasser: I think it's called the net Bible, I think, stands for new English translation is that is that yes.

00:47:13.770 --> 00:47:14.760
Andy Miller III: that's what I thought yeah.

00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:19.920
Murray Vasser: yeah the notes are just yeah they're they're very good they're very thorough and it's unlike a study.

00:47:20.730 --> 00:47:34.620
Murray Vasser: Just gives you glosses about you know this this verse means this and just kind of let's move on this really goes into great depth and sometimes even has the titles of scholarly articles that deal with these questions in more depth so it's a great.

00:47:34.620 --> 00:47:35.190

00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:43.050
Andy Miller III: yeah I encourage people in this comes back to the same idea like we're thankful for study bibles like they're they can be a blessing in our devotional life.

00:47:43.530 --> 00:47:55.890
Andy Miller III: But sometimes it's easy it's almost like eating your dessert first at a meal, like you, can you take somebody or even reading the message paraphrase like you get that interpretation.

00:47:56.340 --> 00:48:01.770
Andy Miller III: First, when, instead of like going in and looking at the passage itself and that's that's why I encourage people to do.

00:48:02.100 --> 00:48:10.560
Andy Miller III: On this, my day tool that offer for free these five steps to deeper teaching and preaching is like I plead with breakers, and in my preaching classes, I believe, with them.

00:48:10.830 --> 00:48:16.440
Andy Miller III: Do not jump ahead to look at somebody else's interpretation right like let's let's get let's.

00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:23.130
Andy Miller III: see what the text says first and get in I say like and that's what's ultimately going to feed the congregation's you serve.

00:48:23.370 --> 00:48:36.840
Andy Miller III: Is you're going to be in a place where you're going to get your own soul into text, the text into your soul like first okay that's my own little little slant there let's get I know, did you have something else you really want to add about first Corinthians.

00:48:37.080 --> 00:48:38.280
Murray Vasser: Very quickly i'll just say.

00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:38.490

00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:57.720
Murray Vasser: As far as the internal arguments against the authenticity, one being the apparent contradiction with Chapter 11 to mean the apparent interruption in the flow call spot a third point on that should be mentioned at least, is that many scholars are puzzled by the appeal to the wall here.

00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:16.890
Murray Vasser: When let them subject themselves, just as the law says, and there are two problems with that first of all, where does the last say that what you know what is Paul referring to here and, secondly, is is it likely that Paul would appeal to the law in this way to settle a a matter of.

00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:28.080
Murray Vasser: The freedom of women in the Assembly, the Church, so those that has been also cited as an indication that this didn't come from the hand of Paul.

00:49:28.740 --> 00:49:45.270
Andy Miller III: So, even just the exegetical point in itself makes it even if it was if there was no problem with the authenticity of the passage in the text, the exegetical points with in it create a problem that help a lead to a cumulative case for you to for us to maybe question their authenticity.

00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:48.510
Murray Vasser: Yes, and so I wouldn't one more point just.

00:49:48.630 --> 00:49:49.110
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.

00:49:49.290 --> 00:49:54.930
Murray Vasser: Closing so well, I said, you know i'm very tentative in my conclusion that that these are not.

00:49:55.560 --> 00:50:03.270
Murray Vasser: authentic the significance for this debate is, we only have you know there's there are many passages that seem to indicate that women.

00:50:03.930 --> 00:50:13.830
Murray Vasser: Had these roles of speaking and exhorting instructing in the church and we only have a couple of passages where that that picture seems to be contradicted.

00:50:14.160 --> 00:50:30.900
Murray Vasser: And in one of those passages, the one in first Corinthians it's a strong argument can be made that it's not authentic so that gives me a great hesitation and using that passage to adjust my understanding of other pastors that that seems so clearly testament.

00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:45.270
Andy Miller III: Yes, that's a great point that yeah okay i'm going to read this next passage, I want to move on, I know we only have so much longer so but for first Timothy 211 through 15 i'm going to read it here in the translation, that you have.

00:50:46.590 --> 00:50:57.990
Andy Miller III: A woman should learn in silence with full submission, I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man instead she has to be silent for Adam was created first than Eve.

00:50:58.560 --> 00:51:11.850
Andy Miller III: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived in transgression but she will be saved through childbearing if she continues and faith love and holiness with good judgment okay Marie help us here.

00:51:12.120 --> 00:51:17.820
Murray Vasser: Okay well yeah you know your listeners may be very disappointed with what I have to say on this verse.

00:51:18.180 --> 00:51:30.960
Murray Vasser: Because essentially my at my argument here is that this versus just very confusing it's not it's not clear on what is being taught here, especially that last verse there about women being saved through childbearing.

00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:31.890

00:51:33.030 --> 00:51:41.970
Murray Vasser: You know the again i'll reference what the net Bible says on this date I think they make a great point on, you know, a straightforward reading this seems to suggest that.

00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:52.110
Murray Vasser: A woman in order to be saved needs to have children, but as the net editors of the net Bible notes, and we must reject that interpretation because.

00:51:52.350 --> 00:51:58.830
Murray Vasser: that's supported elsewhere in scripture and it's explicitly against false teaching on both marriage and salvation.

00:51:59.040 --> 00:52:11.430
Murray Vasser: And so I just would submit that we have a similar difficult to hear in the first part of that passage certainly a straightforward reading of this seems to suggest that women are just to be silent and the Church, but again.

00:52:12.060 --> 00:52:19.830
Murray Vasser: That seems to go against what said elsewhere in the New Testament on this topic of women in church.

00:52:20.220 --> 00:52:30.060
Murray Vasser: So my my conclusion here on this was that you know, just as it would be unwise for us to build our theology of salvation on the foundation of.

00:52:30.810 --> 00:52:46.320
Murray Vasser: You know verse 15 about when we say to childbearing I think is also unwise to build on our theology of women in ministry on the foundation of you know verse 12 on because I think this is a very difficult passage that.

00:52:47.370 --> 00:52:51.810
Murray Vasser: Is it's unclear what exactly is being taught here and there's.

00:52:52.980 --> 00:53:03.420
Murray Vasser: Just as it's it would be very hazardous to just take a straightforward reading a verse 15 and just run with that, I think we would have to say the same about me earlier part of the passage as well.

00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:13.800
Andy Miller III: Yes, that is such a helpful point i've often been confused by that and i've like i've thought about it before and i've thought about within the context of like what we said earlier.

00:53:14.100 --> 00:53:21.780
Andy Miller III: about the nature of our bodies that there's something about the mystery of our bodies that's like communicated in that and, like the importance of.

00:53:22.170 --> 00:53:28.740
Andy Miller III: Women in childbirth, like the moment you can do that but, nevertheless, like it doesn't seem to line up like salvation and there's.

00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:37.620
Andy Miller III: can't be talking about something else, I mean the way that Paul thinks about salvation it just doesn't seem consistent with what he says and other places.

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:52.050
Andy Miller III: And what what someone's suggestion like i've just gone down the road that this is again this is like a non New Testament scholar perspective, like paul's obviously dealing with like a particular limited.

00:53:53.070 --> 00:54:02.670
Andy Miller III: instruction here like it's not meant to be like universal in light of the other picture, but what, what do you think we should do with this passage as a whole, do you think there's a.

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:03.660
Andy Miller III: little bit.

00:54:03.690 --> 00:54:04.020

00:54:05.460 --> 00:54:08.010
Murray Vasser: Well, I think that's that's a great point.

00:54:09.240 --> 00:54:18.990
Murray Vasser: There must be something more going on here some limitation some caveat that's not explicitly stated, and so you know I think that's why.

00:54:19.950 --> 00:54:28.860
Murray Vasser: We need to be careful about just taking the straightforward reading and and running with that you know as far as what what is going on here in verse 15.

00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:41.070
Murray Vasser: You know I one of my professors at talbot more your hubbard he was there talbert he gave a presentation on a paper that he'd written on this first and he made the argument that.

00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:54.090
Murray Vasser: The word for sell for saved here is not actually talking about spiritual salvation is talking about physical deliverance, and so the idea here is that this is a sort of pastoral.

00:54:54.870 --> 00:55:05.670
Murray Vasser: affirmation and encouragement that women would be preserved through the process of childbirth, which was, of course, in the ancient world very dangerous very painful very frightening.

00:55:06.690 --> 00:55:14.130
Murray Vasser: But you know it was it was a great presentation, the great paper and he makes a strong case but, at the end of the day I just.

00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:28.800
Murray Vasser: I i'm not completely satisfied by that explanation, it seems that, given the context on that verse for salvation does seem to carry more the sense of spiritual salvation and not just a physical deliverance.

00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:44.610
Murray Vasser: So yeah it's a tough passage, we certainly wouldn't want to say that salvation is restricted to those who have children and that somehow single women are excluded that's that's clearly against what Paul believe because he.

00:55:45.990 --> 00:55:48.660
Murray Vasser: stated very clearly a preference for singleness and.

00:55:48.720 --> 00:55:49.290

00:55:50.730 --> 00:55:58.410
Andy Miller III: So there's, also the case like i'll often struggle like to try to understand and and sometimes you just did rest in fact like i'm not gonna be able to understand everything.

00:55:58.710 --> 00:56:05.820
Andy Miller III: But the the argument like if Paul what what type of argument Paul might be making in verses 1314 for Adam was created first and Eve.

00:56:06.090 --> 00:56:12.210
Andy Miller III: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived in transgression well like what does that mean about women in ministry like I don't get it.

00:56:12.720 --> 00:56:18.180
Andy Miller III: Like what you're saying there and then much less like well wasn't, even if I.

00:56:18.600 --> 00:56:34.680
Andy Miller III: wasn't added deceived as well, I mean it wasn't just just a woman, so the argument in itself doesn't that paul's making doesn't seem to lead toward prohibiting women to be in church like I just don't like an in the assemblies.

00:56:36.090 --> 00:56:36.960
Murray Vasser: Yes, yeah.

00:56:38.790 --> 00:56:42.630
Murray Vasser: That should is it is that those verses are unclear, I think, maybe.

00:56:43.710 --> 00:56:46.920
Murray Vasser: The those on the complimentary inside.

00:56:47.970 --> 00:56:51.210
Murray Vasser: focus in on that issue of authority in verse 12.

00:56:51.450 --> 00:56:59.070
Murray Vasser: Okay, with somehow see that connection there as as one of you know, supporting the idea of men, having authority over women.

00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:17.070
Murray Vasser: it's a tough a tough issue here, tough passage and one thing that your listeners should be aware of that makes this even a little more tricky is that the Greek words rendered man and woman can also be rendered husband and wife.

00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:17.670

00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:20.400
Murray Vasser: You know it's.

00:57:21.570 --> 00:57:31.890
Murray Vasser: One possibility that I think is makes as much sense as anything else is that what's going on here is that there was some sort of.

00:57:33.060 --> 00:57:37.980
Murray Vasser: way in which the women's in emphasis, which is where Timothy was.

00:57:39.030 --> 00:57:42.240
Murray Vasser: Their participation was somehow seem to.

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:52.890
Murray Vasser: Set the household hierarchy of husband and wife and perhaps you know, maybe the woman is rebuking her husband in public or corrected and in public.

00:57:53.310 --> 00:58:03.090
Murray Vasser: And there's there are a number of passages in the New Testament that talk about women submitting to their husbands and specifically.

00:58:03.690 --> 00:58:15.540
Murray Vasser: At least at least two occasions this specifically tied to the reputation of the Community in in the eyes of surrounding secular society.

00:58:16.080 --> 00:58:20.790
Murray Vasser: And so, in the ancient world that was expected that the woman would follow the religion of her husband.

00:58:21.180 --> 00:58:28.530
Murray Vasser: And this is what Plutarch says, for example, that one should believe only in the guys that her husband believes in him, should, in his words.

00:58:28.830 --> 00:58:39.150
Murray Vasser: shut the door tight on all queer rituals and outlandish superstitions and so Christian the Christian community and we notice, also from the writings of the second century.

00:58:39.660 --> 00:58:47.970
Murray Vasser: pagan critic of Christianity in in Celsius I he accused Christians of disrupting the household hierarchies.

00:58:48.300 --> 00:59:06.330
Murray Vasser: And so there seems to be a concern to avoid causing offence in this way to surrounding culture and that that may be the reason for the emphasis, so it may be that that there's something along those lines that are going on the Community and that it's this specific issue of.

00:59:07.350 --> 00:59:10.860
Murray Vasser: behavior that's disrupting house the household hierarchy.

00:59:11.250 --> 00:59:12.720
Murray Vasser: That is the concern.

00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:16.350
Murray Vasser: So, again it's just just a speculation.

00:59:16.770 --> 00:59:18.690
Murray Vasser: yeah that's that's a possibility.

00:59:19.170 --> 00:59:22.140
Andy Miller III: And that probably that's connected to to your doctoral dissertation work.

00:59:22.350 --> 00:59:25.500
Andy Miller III: To get about the household code and how it interacts with slaves.

00:59:26.790 --> 00:59:36.330
Andy Miller III: I think some people might not even heard that term term before the household codes, I always have to say it slowly Marie because I household cold I get a mixed up.

00:59:36.390 --> 00:59:44.730
Andy Miller III: yeah whenever I talk about the household code it's kind of like i've used that illustration, and I say this in front of you, because you can correct me if this is not a good way of saying it.

00:59:45.060 --> 00:59:52.470
Andy Miller III: But I say like if I was when when when I as a cubs fan when I would seem take me out to the ball game when it gets to the part where I say.

00:59:52.800 --> 01:00:04.650
Andy Miller III: For its route route route for the home team, but cubs fans always say route route route with Harry Carey mind route route route for the cubbies that's what we say, well, we are taking.

01:00:05.430 --> 01:00:17.100
Andy Miller III: A Convention in society, taking out to the ball game, and we are adapting it for our use like we're saying no it's not good enough just to say to root for the home team we've got to say the cubbies.

01:00:17.850 --> 01:00:20.820
Andy Miller III: And we're adapting our weight so it's as if, like.

01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:30.540
Andy Miller III: Paul takes these household codes this convention writing tool for his time and he asserts a different way to think about certain things and.

01:00:30.750 --> 01:00:42.390
Andy Miller III: gives women greater puts radium women on a greater freedom our trajectory towards freedom and the same thing for slavery, would you, what do you think of my illustration there Do I need to edit it.

01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:51.300
Murray Vasser: Well, it, the question I is what did the household form as this kind of the literary.

01:00:51.720 --> 01:01:04.290
Murray Vasser: form did it exists in the surrounding community wasn't just taken over by the Christians on there are certainly people who have argued that it seems to me that it didn't actually.

01:01:05.250 --> 01:01:15.720
Murray Vasser: exist in a in a strict form like that literary form that they borrowed now it's certainly true that that the ideas that have proper household relationships.

01:01:16.170 --> 01:01:26.100
Murray Vasser: That are present, there are related to discussions that were happening in wider society but as far as a literary form that was just taken over.

01:01:26.310 --> 01:01:37.680
Murray Vasser: And Okay, and that, in my view that the evidence really hasn't hasn't worn out for that that was certainly a view that needed help but.

01:01:38.700 --> 01:01:43.950
Murray Vasser: The yeah the is people struggled to produce an example of a.

01:01:44.010 --> 01:01:46.230
Murray Vasser: Okay, that matches this.

01:01:46.590 --> 01:01:58.980
Andy Miller III: A little caution to my illustration no problem i'm I want to be accurate, I want to be biblical it, this is the interesting thing is like yeah often i've heard people say like well they're the Paul baptized.

01:01:59.220 --> 01:02:16.500
Andy Miller III: The household code, so that might not be might not be a literary convention but certainly the idea of talking about it in this way and putting maybe these categories, in place of husbands wives husbands children husbands slaves was something that people might have talked about regularly.

01:02:17.070 --> 01:02:31.170
Murray Vasser: Absolutely, and so your your point I don't think depends your your main point doesn't depend on the idea that this was a for a literary form that was taken over, it could also work on the idea that Paul is adjusting.

01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:38.880
Murray Vasser: So he's starting with sort of basic conventions in society and adjusting them in a in a Christian direction.

01:02:40.110 --> 01:02:43.830
Murray Vasser: So that that I take it that is your sort of your main point.

01:02:44.040 --> 01:02:46.410
Andy Miller III: yeah Thank you, thank you for helping me hahaha.

01:02:46.950 --> 01:02:51.330
Andy Miller III: i'm brought back i'm not i'm not knocked down too many, too many notches here just just one notch.

01:02:52.140 --> 01:03:00.240
Andy Miller III: that's good so i'm and i'm always so glad I love i'm not a biblical scholar, some people don't get the distinctions.

01:03:00.690 --> 01:03:06.870
Andy Miller III: between different types of a theological scholarship but I always love the opportunity to get it done, you know our.

01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:15.330
Andy Miller III: One of our other our New Testament or full time New Testament Professor on staff here, Dr rick boyd he also I don't know if you know, is a mechanical engineer and let's be a common thing.

01:03:16.170 --> 01:03:27.870
Andy Miller III: yeah so I always appreciate being around biblical scholars, who have worked with the languages and look at the original context because it helps me, you know helps me preach better.

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.710
Andy Miller III: marry this man such a helpful conversation, so I just want to.

01:03:31.950 --> 01:03:44.760
Andy Miller III: Re articulate like what we've said what you've what you've presented so used to make grew up in this tradition, where you didn't see women in ministry didn't see women's pastors but thinking about the role of prophets within the New Testament context.

01:03:45.060 --> 01:03:58.170
Andy Miller III: was one one key piece, and then you look at the textual tradition connected first Corinthians 1434 and 35 and kind of see some of the challenges with that, and then the exegetical piece with understanding first Timothy to.

01:03:58.530 --> 01:04:02.490
Andy Miller III: And like how that argument doesn't line up, but particularly related to the.

01:04:02.850 --> 01:04:17.700
Andy Miller III: salvation being women being saved through childbearing lead you to a place where now you affirm women as pastors but you're not you do that tentatively so that's a summary of our conversation here so practically in more finished finished with this.

01:04:18.900 --> 01:04:27.780
Andy Miller III: What is this meant for you like to do attended church now have you listened to a woman preach like How does this how has this affected your life in a day to day basis.

01:04:28.590 --> 01:04:39.270
Murray Vasser: yeah sure Well, yes, I do attend the Church, I think the Western church where where when you preach on occasion and so that's that that is one way that's impacted me.

01:04:39.990 --> 01:04:48.000
Murray Vasser: So yeah I think your your summary of my view there is correct, I you know, I think that the I.

01:04:48.270 --> 01:04:56.760
Murray Vasser: there's clear indication for the New Testament, particularly with the discussion of prophecies that women did hold these roles of teaching instruction expectation in the Church.

01:04:57.090 --> 01:05:04.470
Murray Vasser: And the only two passages which appear to contradict that view on both have some real difficulties first Corinthians is.

01:05:05.100 --> 01:05:11.820
Murray Vasser: Technically, uncertain and if it is there it's in very difficult contradiction with what's said in Chapter 11.

01:05:12.210 --> 01:05:24.870
Murray Vasser: And then on the past in first Timothy is recognized by everyone to be a very difficult passage because of the statement of women being saved through childbirth and so given that i'm i'm very hesitant to.

01:05:27.150 --> 01:05:34.740
Murray Vasser: claim that there is scriptural warrant for objecting to an issue when it seems to me that the the.

01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:39.660
Murray Vasser: More clear passages in the New Testament do support that picture.

01:05:40.290 --> 01:05:51.630
Andy Miller III: awesome well thanks so much before we close, I want to give people tend to the title of our podcasters more to the story, and you get that for this conversation like it's not just a 32nd sound bite.

01:05:52.560 --> 01:06:00.600
Andy Miller III: About thinking about this difficult issue as a church has wrestled with this through centuries it there's more to the story, and we could go on further for sure.

01:06:01.290 --> 01:06:09.570
Andy Miller III: Even on this topic, but I also like to think is there more to this story of Marie vassar Is there something you'd like to do or do with your family what what's more to the story of Marie.

01:06:10.140 --> 01:06:21.810
Murray Vasser: Sure well you know I grew up in an interesting place I grew up in the four corners area so Northwest new Mexico on the borders of the Navajo and you reservations and.

01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:30.780
Murray Vasser: I really enjoyed the you know hiking and climbing in that area, the world that I love climbing the mountains of Southwestern Colorado.

01:06:31.020 --> 01:06:31.890
Andy Miller III: Is my.

01:06:31.950 --> 01:06:36.510
Murray Vasser: thing to do when I get a chance to go out there and kind of 14 years they're called there.

01:06:36.600 --> 01:06:41.460
Murray Vasser: Yes, 14,000 feet so yeah that's one thing I really enjoy doing.

01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:52.830
Andy Miller III: awesome I mean we were we weren't in the southwest Colorado we're up in estes park my boys and I we didn't have time to get to the longs peak the 14 are there, but we did get.

01:06:53.910 --> 01:06:59.430
Andy Miller III: We did seven hours and we had the sunburn to show it to because of the snow the snow goddess.

01:07:01.080 --> 01:07:02.070
Andy Miller III: But we love that stuff.

01:07:02.700 --> 01:07:04.110
Andy Miller III: Mary thanks so much for your time.

01:07:04.170 --> 01:07:11.580
Murray Vasser: Now, where there's there's just no mountains at all, so people will call a hill now, no, no, no that's not no.

01:07:12.270 --> 01:07:12.990
Andy Miller III: that's right.

01:07:13.290 --> 01:07:14.070
Andy Miller III: yeah that's right.

01:07:14.910 --> 01:07:19.560
Andy Miller III: Well, thanks so much for your time Murray, and for your study it means a lot to me personally it's helping me.

01:07:19.830 --> 01:07:30.780
Andy Miller III: Think through these passages better and helping the church we're thankful that you're serving in the vocation, you are and god's certainly using it Wesley biblical seminary with our students that I know to in other places as well, so thank you for your time.

01:07:31.170 --> 01:07:34.860
Murray Vasser: Well, thank you for having me this has been been a wonderful experience Thank you so much.

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