Doctrinal Faithfulness with Steve Bussey
May 19, 2022
Should we be cautious with Orange?, removing Blood & Fire, lessons from the UMC, and articulating a canon; these are some of the topics I cover with Steve Bussey in an eighty-minute podcast entitled Doctrinal Faithfulness.
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Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am so glad you come along and I know some of you are very interested in the content we have today it's been one that's been a long and coming but i'll get to that in just a second.
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Andy Miller III: I have found the little book of jude the 25 verses in jude to be incredibly powerful for time actually I found one commentator who said.
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Andy Miller III: That this burning Lee relevant book that's they say, has often been coming back to prominence in periods of revival.
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Andy Miller III: Alright, we are now into place where we're finally there i'm going to welcome in my guest on voice Steve busey this been a long time coming Steve glad to have you on the podcast.
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Steve Bussey: Well, go world it's good to be here.
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Andy Miller III: Absolutely now here's the danger, this is seriously, we are seriously in danger of a five hour podcast.
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Andy Miller III: So there have been people and then probably the number one requested guests that i've had is for you Steve to come along and we've been friends for a while and we kind of like.
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Andy Miller III: share a lot of similar perspectives and I have some good, even when we disagree, we have some good discussion so i've always appreciated you but Steve I would love to just hear so sometimes people my audience don't know who you are.
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Andy Miller III: So I just love for you to give a few minutes about yourself.
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Steve Bussey: yeah well, I mean, I think the first thing is i'm a child of God, you know i've been saved by the blood of Jesus, you know I being set apart and made holy by the fire of the Holy Spirit, that is, that is, who I am.
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Steve Bussey: But on a more practical temporal level, I was born in Canada.
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Steve Bussey: grew up the the son of Salvation Army officers I lived in Canada, but my parents were also missionaries in Zimbabwe in South Africa.
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Steve Bussey: When I was in South Africa and met when I was 14 years old, a young woman named Sharon talkin vt eventually became my wife, we got married, though in 1996 and we have two amazing kids, both of whom are aspirin university grads.
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Steve Bussey: There you go yeah and we have been we served in South Africa for three years as divisional you secretaries, which is overseeing youth work for the Salvation Army in the western Cape division and then along with that over.
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Steve Bussey: pastor as you would say four cores at the same time, then God brought us to the United States and we've been serving here since 1999 so for the past 23 years or so, actually 23 years old this month.
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Andy Miller III: Okay, and.
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Steve Bussey: we're serving as mission leadership specials for a period of time then from like 2001 to 2012 we were involved in training, youth workers and in 2006 to go over that.
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Steve Bussey: are known as realtors school for your training in 2012 we started salvation factory, which was the first innovation department, the Salvation Army worldwide.
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Steve Bussey: And did a lot of exciting sort of outreach is actually matt Friedman, who teaches that Wesley biblical seminary came and was part of a major outreach which we didn't order to beach.
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Steve Bussey: Where we're sharing the Gospel with like thousands of people in the most biblically illiterate and Irish part of the United States.
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Steve Bussey: But then in 2020 we morphed into a new role, which was the strategic mission department that works under our Chief Secretary in the United States Eastern territory where we're looking at organizational strategy, innovation and really sort of issues of alignment as well.
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Steve Bussey: So that's a little bit about me.
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Steve Bussey: But yeah study.
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Andy Miller III: Quick summary.
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Andy Miller III: yeah that's not not easy to do, and you did a good job.
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Andy Miller III: For a lot of things and some of you who you can already hear and Steve voices passion and love the way God used him and somebody who is.
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Andy Miller III: done research to look into the history of of you know, in the wesleyan Methodist world, but particularly in the Salvation Army and a lot of things that Steve and I are going to talk about might be related to our particular denomination.
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Andy Miller III: But as I as his podcast has grown what's been interesting me Steve is that other folks in the western tradition have reached out to me and saying well whenever we talk about the Salvation Army.
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Andy Miller III: It sounds very similar what i'm experiencing the nazarene church or the wesleyan church and it's maybe not exactly the same, but there are parallels and I think it's happening in many.
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Andy Miller III: on many fronts, and this is something that's consistent that we're feeling so before we get to some of the thing in Ethiopia, you want to jump in there, go ahead.
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Steve Bussey: say something about that as well, like when I think about this well the Wesley and holiness movement and brothers, sisters and methodism and you know NASA Rien etc, etc.
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Steve Bussey: And you look at the history of evangelicalism in many ways the crisis which it's in some of the extremities you know of whether that's fundamentalism or month modernism or liberalism that had been sort of at the forefront of the 20th century.
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Steve Bussey: really have been dominated by fonts that are not necessarily fully reflective of a Western horns, but I think that, in many ways we're in a period, right now, where the Western influence movement is going to play critical role.
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Steve Bussey: In I searched in America and globally as well, so I think our conversation, together with with in the broader context, I think is very relevant.
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Andy Miller III: Right, and I think this is the place for this is why seminaries like that Wesley biblical seminary thrive and we have set doubled in size in four years.
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Andy Miller III: So, and what is that, like we're serving this pan Wesley and movement, and this is why organizations like seedbed are starting to gain traction is because.
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Andy Miller III: These these movements are like sticking to doctrinal convictions, at the same time, not just restricted to one particular denomination so there's a lot.
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Andy Miller III: That we can learn together and i'm also often cautious to even use the word holiness movement sometimes i've heard people say the Salvation Army is a holiness movement.
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Andy Miller III: And that's true, in a sense, but generally like the determines holiness movement refers to historical reality.
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Andy Miller III: And we are part of the holiness tradition, and so, because there's a way that the holiness movement, forgive me, has not been moving very much.
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Andy Miller III: Like right, so this is this a problem but we're but this tradition, this theological tradition, this mission attrition.
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Andy Miller III: is something that is position for growth and is growing in many sectors, but we might just think like weird the inheritors of a legacy that comes from john and Charles Wesley and that's been passed down in and through us that also made its way through the booths and the Salvation Army.
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Steve Bussey: I think that's a great clarification you know because I think that's sometimes hubris if we use a term like movement it sort of says Oh well, everything's fine when, in fact, no, we have got to do some serious calibration here.
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Steve Bussey: Yes, you're going to be true to our holiness tradition.
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Andy Miller III: that's right now it's interesting as we talked about this we're going to be we're gonna be covering some curriculum things that we've seen in our movement, I know that that's also been the case and other.
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Andy Miller III: Denominations have used a similar curriculum i'm just flat out say to orange curriculum something we'll talk about it further we're not there yet you're gonna have to wait folks.
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Andy Miller III: Then the other thing is we're going to talk about polity we're going to talk about like how we even define what is a traditional theology how we arrive at a cannon for a.
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Andy Miller III: Specific theological tradition, but before we get that like it'd be really easy for people to hear me and you talk and if we're critical.
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Andy Miller III: of a few areas that they missed the fact that that's not the focus of our life and ministry like why Why would we be critical in part is because we're for.
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Andy Miller III: Something broader we're for something I would say even more beautiful and it's related to how truth exists and world so Steve what is it what is it that you're for.
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Steve Bussey: yeah I mean, I think that the Salvation Army in our beginning as well, we had a cornerstone in which, which was put on the building of every Salvation Army, which sends this building exists for the glory of God and the salvation of the world.
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Andy Miller III: amen.
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Steve Bussey: amen I mean like drop the MIC That summarizes it right.
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Steve Bussey: And when we read scripture and we read you know our creation mandate.
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Steve Bussey: You know, and you read the great commandment to love God and to you know with all our heart mind soul strength love our neighbor as ourselves, you know when you read the great Commission to go into the world and to make disciples.
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Steve Bussey: I mean that is a purpose that that that we let you know that is critical, you know that that is absolutely fulfilling it's the greatest life that we could never live.
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Steve Bussey: And so the question of how do I live my life fully aligned to that, I mean that we've all been created in the image of God that we've all been created for a purpose.
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Steve Bussey: And discovering what that purpose is and living up to that as individuals, but along with that recognizing the fact that we are part of a community of believers as well.
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Steve Bussey: And and Catherine within our first chapter of aggressive Christianity, she talks about like how that great Commission that we have been given.
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Steve Bussey: You know, why is it that we're not seeing this fulfilled it more.
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Steve Bussey: In each generation, and we have to ask ourselves why.
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Steve Bussey: You know why is this not being realized, and how can we do it better, what do we need to do to stay absolutely true to that Commission that Jesus has given to us and and and to and to live in a deep relationship with him.
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Steve Bussey: And so to me, that is something that really drives you know everything about who I am who Sharon is you know and and what we do with our life, you know.
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Steve Bussey: So I would say, you know, for me the things which I am deeply passionate about which I believe that we would find resonance with both in the Salvation Army and in the broader holiness tradition is that is that we share an identity in Christ.
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Andy Miller III: Right.
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Steve Bussey: yeah we are called to be saints to experience the gift of full salvation to spread holiness throughout the world right.
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Steve Bussey: um and then with that that purpose to find the boat best manager to method to be able to accomplish that I think I think that's the goal can can I can I give a fun illustration of what this is, I would say that if the Gospel it's like even though i've come up with brands right.
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Steve Bussey: But Catherine booth in the inner in our third chapter she says the Gospel is is is like pure water and and again.
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Steve Bussey: You know there's nothing better than water it's a source of life and she says, we need to keep the blessing Gospel Hall, but when once we keep the bus Gospel all she says we gotta deliver it in the best COMP.
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Steve Bussey: rating that that will connect with people so that Cup.
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Steve Bussey: can change over time, you can find all sorts of different types of cups.
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Steve Bussey: That old Gospel right now, these are all Salvation Army cups right, but if you're from a nazarene church, whatever else it is you know that can be key right now that water gets poured into whatever one of those cups are right, but if we get to a point where there's no water.
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Andy Miller III: There you go.
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Steve Bussey: we're in.
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Andy Miller III: trouble me tell the audio people watch this happen okay.
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Andy Miller III: magic trick.
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Steve Bussey: magic trick basically the water is no longer there in the Cup.
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Steve Bussey: Right now.
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Steve Bussey: And so, like again if you read those first three chapters of calculus he's talking about, you know that we need to find the best way to accomplish this.
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Steve Bussey: In our second chapter called adaptation measures she needs she says, we need to adapt their message to the site times and circumstances in which we live.
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Steve Bussey: But in the third chapter she says the Gospel needs to remain pure and we'll have to keep it hold on when she argued she actually debated the Bishop Carlisle the Anglican bishop.
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Steve Bussey: In 1880 This is where she said, we must keep the blessing Gospel Hall, but we must deliver it in the best Cup, in other words we innovate, the Cup.
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Steve Bussey: But never ever ever innovate, the gospel.
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Steve Bussey: The message, and I think that we're in a crisis in which that basic very simple message we've lost.
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Steve Bussey: And so to me.
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Steve Bussey: That is something which I stand for, how do we stay absolutely true to our identity and purpose and yet find the best methodology to be able to accomplish that.
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Andy Miller III: Beautiful yeah it is similar ideas like a form and function or mission and model, I think, like those those are ways to talk about the same thing, like the cup is the way that we hold this way we present it, but the purity of the mission is what needs to be held.
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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.
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Steve Bussey: And I mean if you look at my we chat a little bit yesterday about this that the emergent Church, which came out of sort of gen X and the whole discussion about the dirty in the 1990s.
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Steve Bussey: They introduced you know the the French postmodern philosophers Jacques derrida who.
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Steve Bussey: introduced the concept of deconstruction right and they began to apply deconstruction to the church and and several of those who are part of the emerging church movement and emergent church movement.
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Steve Bussey: began to deconstruct the methodologies that's great you know we if there is something that has become.
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Steve Bussey: Has barnacled itself onto the Church, we need to figure out what the article is from the boat and we need to consistently clear our barnacles.
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Steve Bussey: The problem is that they move from deconstructing the the methodology to deconstructing the message, and I believe that we are across the world in a serious crisis because of that.
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Andy Miller III: Yes, I mean that that's a challenge and when when I think about the question myself like.
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Andy Miller III: What am I doing here.
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Andy Miller III: yeah I don't I don't want to be in a place where i'm just described that well i'm not the emergent i'm not changing a message instead I keep on wanting to highlight the beauty of what the message is.
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Andy Miller III: mean it's easy for us to kind of be sidelined order to be pushed this is like we're just these.
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Andy Miller III: Anti people instead you kind of look at the very essence of creation like God is love the that kind of before all time began God exists as three persons undivided in essence co equal and power and.
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Andy Miller III: glory in a loving relationship they create.
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Andy Miller III: Out of that existence and then put the world on a trajectory where even as result of the Senate has fallen into world there's an opportunity.
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Andy Miller III: to experience a recreation and a rebirth and this comes ultimately through the person of Jesus, and this is why, like.
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Andy Miller III: I want to highlight this as much as possible, because I believe this is what everybody needs, not just for this life, but for the life that come back, we need something to stand in place of our sin someone to stand in place of our sins.
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Andy Miller III: To take on like, as we say, like it's very one of the clearest places that we actually have the word just in the Salvation Army articles of faith and says we're justly exposed to the wrath of God.
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Andy Miller III: I always think it's kind of interest really talk about justice.
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Andy Miller III: Well, what How does justice express itself most fully in the person of Jesus.
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Andy Miller III: In that, if this is the case that we can be freed from our sins, that we can be freed.
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Andy Miller III: For a joyful obedience that we can experience the power of the Holy Spirit on our lives now and then that's not just like a personal thing that's.
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Andy Miller III: Like a social reality it's something that we anticipate the new creation, now that Jesus is going to return and he's going to put all things right there's going to be a new heavens, and a new earth there's going to be judgment there I believe in heaven and hell.
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Andy Miller III: And all of these things are part of a reality.
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Andy Miller III: That like encompasses might be that's what i'm for, and I want people to be able to experience that blessing their life, so why do I, why do I critique the challenges of deconstruction now.
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Andy Miller III: Well it's because, like it only people are not able to experience the fullness that God has for them, and like i'm not going to settle for people just saying you know what.
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Andy Miller III: i'm deconstructing right now well, maybe you're analyzing and that's my job as a as a theological educator like I want people to have the firm foundation for what they believe go let's do that let's do that.
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Andy Miller III: Well we're not we're not going to say that everything that came before us needs to be torn down like at the same time, I think that's a real danger, particularly Steve as we highlighted the message.
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Steve Bussey: yeah so I could not agree more, you know, and I mean like.
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Steve Bussey: Again, you know we we are for the transformation of our world.
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Steve Bussey: Yes, and somewhere along the line and I do think it's largely I think that again when you look at that that even joke old tradition of the Wesley and movement and the holiness movement in the 18th and 19th centuries.
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Steve Bussey: You saw this, I think, Timothy Smith in his book revivalism and reform illustrates so beautifully that that there is a revival it on an eternal level of souls that are being saved people who are going to have and then evidently leads to the transformation of society right.
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Steve Bussey: And so, when we talk about this i'm not talking about this as an individualist and saying you know i'm saved.
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Steve Bussey: i'm going to lock myself in my church and wait for Jesus to come and get me know me, I mean this is not just good news for me.
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Steve Bussey: That that when the Gospel and the glory of God fully ready it's not within myself but within my social network.
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Steve Bussey: And within my Community inevitably reform society so if we want looking at a very temporal level the benefit what i'm for is the transformation society.
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Steve Bussey: I am for justice, I am for inclusion, I am for all of these things out of every person experiencing the love of God is communicated, but the question is, what is the best way to do that, and I believe it's when we are aligned to the classical Christianity.
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Andy Miller III: Right this, and this is why this this piece of like I tend to say like what what we're about in general, like the classical consensual tradition of the church and we're not trying to.
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Andy Miller III: invent anything new, and I think it's really be really cautious when people the problem in some ways, and I used the word woke hesitantly, the problem with, and if you don't know what I mean by that i'm sorry.
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Andy Miller III: Like it was have to take so.
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Andy Miller III: It the problem in general that i'm afraid that can have this is not constructing it there's there might be deconstruction but where are we going, what do we do okay so let's analyze some problems that exist in society racism for sure, like let's let's let's.
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Call it out.
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Andy Miller III: Even the people might not like my answer to about homophobia okay let's call it out let's not treat people as if they are not human like let's do the same thing with abortion like let's say that these are babies they're created in god's image.
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Andy Miller III: That killing an innocent life intentionally is wrong, like let's call these things out, so I i'm I I, I think the problem in general here is that we're not reconstructing we're not go in any direction and that's what you're highlighting.
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Andy Miller III: you're saying the transformation of the world, but just be cautious to like that's also been a message that has been rewarded.
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Andy Miller III: yeah our friends the United Methodist church.
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Steve Bussey: Absolutely, and if I could add to this.
00:19:49.770 --> 00:19:53.970
Steve Bussey: That that I think George nancy's research has done this so well.
00:19:54.120 --> 00:20:04.110
Steve Bussey: You know, and he has hit the nail on the head better than anyone on our podcast guests to say yes great go back and listen to my voice listen to him his great great guy he's he's he's a good friend actually as well and.
00:20:05.010 --> 00:20:14.760
Steve Bussey: And when it comes to these things you know what we assume is that the debate, the debate is a political Left or Right debate.
00:20:15.390 --> 00:20:16.230
Steve Bussey: And I.
00:20:16.290 --> 00:20:24.480
Steve Bussey: And, and I think I think when it comes to that that that there are secular arguments right secular is just a Latin word, which means temporal right.
00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:36.540
Steve Bussey: But it's come to me in the absence of any Christian biblical worldview speaking anything because because our society is sought to prioritize the biblical sort of influence in our society, but I do believe that scripture speaks into that right.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:52.500
Steve Bussey: But when we have a secular left you know attempt to try to understand that or a secular right attempt to understand that both of those start and George Nancy says the start from the assumption of human perfectibility in our own natural ability right.
00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:55.020
Steve Bussey: easily on enlightenment.
00:20:55.500 --> 00:21:13.530
Steve Bussey: beliefs, that we have the ability to solve the most complex problems by our own rationality and what George Nancy says as a sociologist is that as networking for right and he says, until we and what you said earlier on, to we acknowledge our human depravity.
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:21.420
Steve Bussey: Right right, that is where we are most inclusive that we are all justly and totally depraved unjustly exposed to the wrath of God.
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:22.230
Andy Miller III: it's like yeah.
00:21:22.290 --> 00:21:34.200
Steve Bussey: That needs to be our starting point of any social justice or ethical issue and stuff like that, in other words, if we debate the ethics and the politics without getting to the foundations of why we're having this event.
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:42.420
Steve Bussey: we're going to never solve the problem we're just going to be in a cycle, a vicious cycle of that of attacks.
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:49.920
Andy Miller III: And so you and I have gotten to this place like of like where we think kind of essence of that we we affirm the historical tradition.
00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:55.650
Andy Miller III: The Salvation Army and like this holistic mission that you've described like this, this role that we play in the world.
00:21:55.860 --> 00:22:05.580
Andy Miller III: but also in the role of the individual we haven't even talked about like the reality of the whosoever like this available like when you talk about inclusiveness like this is part of what we're talking about too.
00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:15.750
Andy Miller III: So what what i'm going to pivot here a little bit we've talked about this in you and i've talked about i've I because of i'm so thankful to have been married into.
00:22:16.410 --> 00:22:26.790
Andy Miller III: United Methodist family that's on the evangelical side of that denomination, and so my wife's family members have been a part of all of the general conferences.
00:22:27.390 --> 00:22:40.470
Andy Miller III: that have happened for the last 40 years like they've been voting Members on the floor, and so, when I go visit her family, I am just hearing about these things, and is it so i've been i've been married 20 years this month oh praise the Lord.
00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:45.240
Andy Miller III: And so it's a little long to it's a little like I can't believe it's been that long.
00:22:45.930 --> 00:22:46.860
Andy Miller III: it's such a blessing.
00:22:47.220 --> 00:23:01.980
Andy Miller III: I kind of like really Thank you Lord so, so this is i've been here about this for 20 years well that 10 years ago I realized the conversations that I heard about methodism it had been happening for now 50 years for them.
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:06.000
Andy Miller III: were starting to express themselves in the Salvation Army.
00:23:06.270 --> 00:23:09.930
Andy Miller III: yeah and and now like my friends and Wesley and as rain, etc.
00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:18.690
Andy Miller III: All these places like you see that that happened there, I think we need to learn from if we call I don't know if call quite big brothers big brothers big sisters in that Methodist church.
00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:27.540
Andy Miller III: United Methodist church, we can learn from them and i've seen you recently picking up on some of this as well, so what is it that you're learning a different method.
00:23:28.260 --> 00:23:32.250
Steve Bussey: yeah first of all, I mean like my heart goes out to.
00:23:32.310 --> 00:23:36.810
Steve Bussey: To those who are part of the globe, the United Methodist Church and the goal Methodist church.
00:23:37.560 --> 00:23:46.530
Steve Bussey: split a change something that that's never easy to go through you know and that's a painful thing you know, because you know, we want to see people come together and be unified.
00:23:46.830 --> 00:24:02.160
Steve Bussey: But the question is, what are the foundations on which, which are creating that unity that capital city and stuff and and I think that what the the methodists have been going through speak to the broader holiness tradition as well to.
00:24:02.190 --> 00:24:04.080
Steve Bussey: Each one of us, because.
00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:12.330
Steve Bussey: And I do think that that again the world which we're living in today if there is a.
00:24:12.750 --> 00:24:20.910
Steve Bussey: A strategy, I think, actually Thomas Otis oden's biography which i'm just halfway through right now I think he he lays it out so well when he talks about.
00:24:21.690 --> 00:24:29.970
Steve Bussey: He actually references i've got a quote from from his book a change of heart he speaks about the influence of Saul alinsky reveley for radicals.
00:24:30.030 --> 00:24:30.660
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:44.100
Steve Bussey: And he says that that when he was in this was like in the 1940s and 1950s, he said that Saul alinsky taught them about social pragmatism political opportunism and he said, these were useful for co opting religious structures.
00:24:44.370 --> 00:24:45.660
Steve Bussey: and instruments.
00:24:45.780 --> 00:24:48.300
Steve Bussey: For the fundamental transformation of society.
00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:52.860
Steve Bussey: That would go back right thing, but the idea of how do we co op through the distributors.
00:24:53.010 --> 00:25:02.370
Steve Bussey: to accomplish what we want, how do we do that, and he said there were four ways which he wants, he was teaching through strategic deception through surprise attacks on vulnerabilities.
00:25:03.090 --> 00:25:07.110
Steve Bussey: direct action and through rhetorical cover up.
00:25:07.530 --> 00:25:09.150
Andy Miller III: um you know.
00:25:09.330 --> 00:25:12.360
Andy Miller III: like this is the explicit it's.
00:25:12.450 --> 00:25:15.060
Steve Bussey: explosive consolidate yeah yeah.
00:25:15.210 --> 00:25:23.880
Steve Bussey: wasn't tactics right and, and these are the same tactics that are being celebrated in in some movements, one of which is progressive Christianity.
00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:31.260
Steve Bussey: I mean you can look at this and there, there are tactics in which there are intentional Trojan horse strategies.
00:25:31.470 --> 00:25:40.140
Steve Bussey: I think, Ken Collins says it really well and in the beginning of the next methodism he uses the term narrative displacement um you know.
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:50.220
Steve Bussey: in which people are using words which sound like they are wesleyan that they are biblical that they are salvation so you know or whatever, but they're using a different dictionary.
00:25:50.970 --> 00:25:56.970
Andy Miller III: what's one of those one of an example of that that you see like where people are having narrative displacement.
00:25:57.150 --> 00:26:01.200
Steve Bussey: Well i'll give you an example, I mean when we use the term love.
00:26:01.800 --> 00:26:02.220
Steve Bussey: You know.
00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:14.250
Steve Bussey: You can use something that just something we just talked about you know loving God and loving our neighbor right, I mean that that is like the definition of a great awakening the scaling of god's great commandment realized sort of a world right.
00:26:15.330 --> 00:26:21.960
Steve Bussey: But the question is, are we getting our dictionary definition from john Wesley or from john Lennon.
00:26:22.530 --> 00:26:24.270
Andy Miller III: um yeah sure.
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:31.920
Steve Bussey: right because I could say love is all you need you know and as a result of that you know, imagine there's a world where there's no religion.
00:26:32.250 --> 00:26:33.000
Andy Miller III: yeah sure.
00:26:33.330 --> 00:26:36.030
Steve Bussey: yeah that's not the love i'm talking about here.
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:40.530
Steve Bussey: When you read like Kim Collins in his description of wesley's holy love.
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:51.210
Steve Bussey: right that is held in dialectic tension that's totally different definite different definition to what a progressive individual would utilize.
00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:55.650
Steve Bussey: And so again when we use from like when we use a term like justice.
00:26:56.010 --> 00:27:09.630
Steve Bussey: We absolutely believe in in seeing you know see you know seeking justice that that's biblical look at Isaiah and look at through I mean we could just look throughout scripture but it never compromises god's Holiness.
00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:17.580
Steve Bussey: And so, and so I think that there are tons here, and I believe intentional, I would call them semiotic tactics.
00:27:18.060 --> 00:27:27.300
Steve Bussey: to embrace when we create language or to to create something that looks like it's a for me and then just twist this one part, and then it's like wait a second you know.
00:27:27.600 --> 00:27:31.200
Steve Bussey: Yes, yes, yes, yes, no, but this is a lynchpin.
00:27:31.590 --> 00:27:35.580
Steve Bussey: yeah if you take this piece out it actually brings everything down.
00:27:35.910 --> 00:27:40.920
Andy Miller III: Let me give an example to this is very interesting and you and I just both came became aware of this.
00:27:41.490 --> 00:27:53.190
Andy Miller III: document that came i'm going to be vague i'm sorry folks you can contact me later send me an email i'll be specific i'm gonna be vague here another Salvation Army territory outside of the United States that has.
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:59.730
Andy Miller III: You know it kind of reforming the way that they express their identity and they they put it all together.
00:28:00.030 --> 00:28:10.830
Andy Miller III: Within the concept of identity for me almost looks like a strategic plan broadly which is you know it's good we all need to think about like what we do that as the illustration use early the cups that we use to convey the mission.
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:19.500
Andy Miller III: But one of the things that came, there is, they said in this document, for instance, the words blood and fire shouldn't be used anymore now I might not be pulling that exactly.
00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:21.930
Steve Bussey: Exactly for you.
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:32.460
Steve Bussey: Okay, I know I know I know we talked about being a little more obscure, but I think I think we need to be honest here because, let me just say this as well, like again.
00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:36.840
Andy Miller III: But this is a narrative of this placement to like what happens when okay.
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:43.530
Andy Miller III: I understand, like i'm not, I understand, like as a branding statement and as somebody who worked in like as a.
00:28:43.800 --> 00:28:55.050
Andy Miller III: commander and Salvation Army elite it like Okay, I understand, we have different audiences, to whom we need to communicate like this very clear, no doubt, but at the same time like to say, we shouldn't use.
00:28:55.470 --> 00:29:05.850
Andy Miller III: Talk about the blood anymore, this is, I mean this type of thing that is what's happening in and method is the United Methodist and for a long time, no, we can't talk about this well what is behind this it's an understanding of the atonement that says no, no.
00:29:06.300 --> 00:29:17.310
Andy Miller III: When you talk about the just like suppose the wrath of God sort of stuff and that that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice to any substitution airy nature, like i've been at liberal schools Steve I know you have to.
00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:33.030
Andy Miller III: Study a liberal school like there was just a complete rejection of any substitution airy nature of the atonement like you know i'm all for other other ways to think about the atonement but we can't move away from fact that Jesus to say these words Jesus died for you.
00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:44.190
Andy Miller III: yeah for us and so even even rejecting that concept i'll go what else, are you going to put in the fire of the Holy Spirit like if we pull away from these terms, well, we need something else.
00:29:44.490 --> 00:29:46.440
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah let's be cautious.
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:51.690
Steve Bussey: So let me, let me give this as an illustration, and I will say it's from the United kingdom's territory.
00:29:51.960 --> 00:30:07.140
Steve Bussey: Okay, I think, because, again, you know, this is something which is just conversely if it's set in love, but I do think that, on this issue, I think we need to be very clear here's things which I forgot for a minute Okay, if I can just read this.
00:30:07.290 --> 00:30:07.830
Andy Miller III: here just.
00:30:08.040 --> 00:30:10.860
Steve Bussey: Because I think that people need to understand how this works.
00:30:11.190 --> 00:30:17.370
Steve Bussey: here's what I would affirm and that's what it says on their website, a strong, consistent identity helps answer questions such as who are we.
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:25.230
Steve Bussey: What are we doing and what do we want to be in the future, these are important questions for everyone involved in the life, the army, not just church our headquarters.
00:30:25.650 --> 00:30:34.410
Steve Bussey: And organizations identity can become confusing even contradictory, this is a particular risk for the submission only because we are involved in so many different activities do we agree.
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:35.490
Andy Miller III: yeah absolutely.
00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:45.000
Steve Bussey: Yes, absolutely okay carries on the summertime is identity is God given god's esteem, but it is vulnerable to being shaped by ungodly pressures that squeeze and distort it amen.
00:30:45.300 --> 00:30:56.820
Steve Bussey: yeah absolutely reach that the army needs an identity that is dynamic and generates God the energy to ensure we faithfully serve the present age that's where i'm just like wait a minute, let me state.
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:57.990
Andy Miller III: identity is this what do I.
00:30:58.320 --> 00:30:59.160
Andy Miller III: mean by dynamic but.
00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:05.430
Steve Bussey: We probably can look through that right yeah we're part of the universal church raised up by God, with a unique identity and proud history.
00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:09.420
Steve Bussey: However, in every generation, the social media needs to explore its God given identity.
00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:14.220
Steve Bussey: Whitman with what we need to explore it, we need to understand it, yes right.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:22.320
Steve Bussey: Our identity must have the capacity to make sense of today's aren't Salvation Army Members as well as employees volunteers, the people we serve our support us in our ecumenical partners.
00:31:22.770 --> 00:31:32.070
Steve Bussey: The survey Chinese identity needs to be large enough to encompass all aspects of our work in the one tent agree right the Salvation Army had now here we go past tense.
00:31:32.520 --> 00:31:42.060
Steve Bussey: A vision and mission for the world that inspired and motivated all kinds of people severe trauma history shows what can happen when a powerful message communicate effectively empowered by a life changing identity.
00:31:42.390 --> 00:31:50.730
Steve Bussey: And then, here comes here's the linchpin, however, the words and images used by the first sub agents, do not have the same impact today.
00:31:51.930 --> 00:32:05.520
Steve Bussey: Is this a Is this a a in the way in which it has been communicated you know it, or is it like the core of it what it is, it says, for example, model blood and fire does not make sense of contemporary UK society.
00:32:05.910 --> 00:32:12.330
Steve Bussey: We still believe in the vital blood of Jesus and the fire of the Holy Spirit, but we need other words to communicate these eternal truths.
00:32:13.410 --> 00:32:18.960
Steve Bussey: Okay, I don't know why we would need other words but here's the question what are they.
00:32:19.890 --> 00:32:20.700
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.
00:32:21.030 --> 00:32:30.240
Steve Bussey: And they're not listed even the identity and methods, using the 1990s 2000s won't necessarily connect today in a rapidly changing world, we must pay attention to our identity.
00:32:30.570 --> 00:32:41.010
Steve Bussey: So the question which I have in that linchpin sort of statement is if the blood and fire is the engine of the vehicle Salvation Army and you're saying we're taking this out.
00:32:41.910 --> 00:32:50.070
Steve Bussey: yeah it's not we're fine tuning it but it's saying we've removed the engine from the vehicle and it's like well, what are you putting into it.
00:32:50.340 --> 00:32:50.850
Steve Bussey: You know.
00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:59.610
Steve Bussey: And then we don't understand why is it that this vehicles not moving anymore, like the holiness movement why isn't it moving well, maybe we've removed the engine from it.
00:33:00.060 --> 00:33:04.500
Andy Miller III: mm hmm and we're not saying that this has definitely happened here again.
00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:13.110
Andy Miller III: No, but there is there is some caution like this is like in and it's not like, we need to you, we need to say fire volley and we need to wear bonnets and.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:21.480
Andy Miller III: or even uniforms, for that matter, like you, like thank God can use it, but all right, like we're willing to think about different cups going back to your analogy.
00:33:21.750 --> 00:33:28.110
Andy Miller III: But there is a danger that moving some of these words removing some these words does change the.
00:33:28.470 --> 00:33:40.230
Andy Miller III: Essential identity, and this is, I kind of like you and I are learning from united Methodist some is that this is what's happened for them there's a kind of like a little bait and switch okay Okay, we can agree that were a little cautious where you're going here.
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.510
Andy Miller III: yeah, then what happens is like the clarity has come now, I remember pretty clearly.
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.050
Andy Miller III: There was a and i've talked to people on my podcast about this.
00:33:49.410 --> 00:34:01.140
Andy Miller III: There was a movement like probably in 2004 after one of these big events in the Methodist church where it just felt like the United Methodist church, it is where you get to a place where leader bill hints and Dr bill henson.
00:34:01.830 --> 00:34:12.000
Andy Miller III: Was pastor of a large church into kind of a leader of orthodoxy, and was a part of something called the confessing movement, he said, perhaps it's time for an amiable separation.
00:34:12.930 --> 00:34:18.750
Andy Miller III: And people go, oh no, we can work this out, this is fine, but I think he saw what was coming.
00:34:19.140 --> 00:34:35.280
Andy Miller III: And perhaps that's something that should have happened for them even then to to realize that they're just thinking now, am I saying get out no i'm not suggesting that like I think there is historical reality of our connection, but there are things that unite us.
00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:44.100
Andy Miller III: And I think that's what happened in methodism is like they grew apart on these key distinctions in one of the ways that expresses itself.
00:34:44.520 --> 00:34:55.560
Andy Miller III: Is biblical authority the doctrine of Revelation a doctrine creation comes in the discussion of human sexuality and that's become the flashpoint for this, but it represents something much more.
00:34:56.160 --> 00:35:02.580
Steve Bussey: No, no, I agree with you that I think again, I would highly recommend any person, particularly as women to read this book.
00:35:02.970 --> 00:35:06.000
Steve Bussey: Because I think that there's such wise inside a lot of Wesley.
00:35:06.210 --> 00:35:21.300
Steve Bussey: seminary folks are writing in this, as you know, and others I think maxis dunham's sort of historical overview the chapter is called theological accountability highlights is very well, and what I was going to say is when you talk about the amicable separation.
00:35:21.540 --> 00:35:32.310
Steve Bussey: yeah question is, you know how many people are represented in this now Harvard University put out something very interesting, they said, if you want to incite a revolution.
00:35:32.580 --> 00:35:40.200
Steve Bussey: All that you need to do is to attract 3.5% of the population, and you can literally change an organization from the inside out.
00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:41.130
Steve Bussey: Right so.
00:35:41.190 --> 00:35:45.240
Steve Bussey: In other words, you don't need the majority people now what what what nicely done says is that.
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:50.520
Steve Bussey: That that several those who were part of like the good news movement that eventually the best see movement.
00:35:50.910 --> 00:35:56.910
Steve Bussey: On that one last one, which really stands out to me is they, they signed something called the Houston declaration.
00:35:57.330 --> 00:36:03.240
Steve Bussey: in which they were really affirming the primacy of scripture the Trinity the traditional language literature liturgy etc right.
00:36:03.690 --> 00:36:13.920
Steve Bussey: And, and in that there were 48 people who signed that and then they sent that out to 55,000 umc clergy and 7000 lay leader representatives right.
00:36:14.520 --> 00:36:24.780
Steve Bussey: they've received back from those people 58,000 responses, all of which agreed and affirmed to the elements discussed in the in the.
00:36:25.470 --> 00:36:34.230
Steve Bussey: In the in the Houston declaration that's I mean that's a ridiculous amount they said only 87 people disagreed with the the elements right.
00:36:35.220 --> 00:36:46.950
Steve Bussey: But only a year or two later they held on what was called the reimagining conference in which they said, what are we about Do we really believe this is this where the church stands What has this to do with our doctrine and mission.
00:36:48.300 --> 00:36:54.960
Steve Bussey: I mean 87 if you have the right at seven people, you can ignore 58,000 people.
00:36:55.140 --> 00:36:55.920
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.
00:36:56.040 --> 00:37:04.140
Steve Bussey: And shift button so when it comes to that schism it's like 87 people versus 58,000 that's not even like close.
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:15.390
Steve Bussey: How is it that those any some people could initiate as something that leads to a slip like we've seen, but with the umc and GMC I think it's those who get into key positions of leadership.
00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:24.000
Steve Bussey: Yes, those who are shaping people to the seminaries I think Matthew done i'm talking about those two things that don't that we don't have governance, which is able to manage.
00:37:24.180 --> 00:37:26.850
Steve Bussey: theological tangibility and doctrinal integrity.
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.830
Steve Bussey: I would add to that, though, that those who are in charge of communication.
00:37:32.490 --> 00:37:41.220
Steve Bussey: And those who are your darryl Miller, use the term balladeers you musicians those people who are creating narratives that shape your worldview.
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:54.090
Steve Bussey: I think that those people who are in those positions can tip the tide of any organization, so if your church of nazarene if you're are part of a holiness church if you're part of a cm you know mission alliance.
00:37:54.390 --> 00:38:04.290
Steve Bussey: you're part of the Salvation Army, you need to become aware that those who are in strategic positions, need to be 100% aligned.
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:14.310
Steve Bussey: Your identity and purpose your doctrines your disciplines if they aren't basically read the next medicine, because that's your reality that's coming your way.
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:21.690
Andy Miller III: Right, so that that's why we want to be so cautious as you get to this place is like it's it's not because, like we're just heresy hunters, just like.
00:38:21.810 --> 00:38:30.270
Andy Miller III: Oh, this threatens the very existence of the organizations like not just not just like our denomination, but this is coming our way, and this is why, like.
00:38:30.630 --> 00:38:37.350
Andy Miller III: What happened part of what happened in a method is different in the Salvation Army, like the way our educational system is set up is.
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:49.590
Andy Miller III: They got the the seminaries very all very few like the denominational seminary is funded by the by the denomination as a whole we're promoting teaching that was not consistent with its own statements of faith.
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:56.070
Andy Miller III: So that that was this they got a hold of that they held on and that produce next generation ministers.
00:38:56.970 --> 00:39:10.350
Andy Miller III: fringe ideas were there, and like the things that we're experiencing now that might seem they seem like fringe at the time, but now they become mainstream, and how does that happen well they control those systems and same thing happens, even with the way we allow curriculum to be developed.
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:20.640
Steve Bussey: And can I just say this, I will give you a very practical illustration from last week, I was just on Facebook, I was actually showing a quote from the next methodism from your friend pat o'reilly he was just on a couple weeks ago.
00:39:20.670 --> 00:39:21.780
Andy Miller III: Right and I thought yeah yeah.
00:39:21.870 --> 00:39:32.580
Steve Bussey: And we had somebody who came on who is part of one of our theological training institutions that are training colleges, for I won't say who and I won't say where, but this person came on.
00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:40.350
Steve Bussey: and basically began to slim the global Methodist church and said, this is not good, this is not biblical it's killing unity and stuff like this.
00:39:40.830 --> 00:39:54.150
Steve Bussey: and began to say some things you know that challenging so the ethical and he basically said, this is not a model which Salvation Army wants to look at and so just to sort of lay the groundwork because again just because a person is.
00:39:54.150 --> 00:40:00.090
Steve Bussey: training people within our institution, I want to make sure we're aligned, so I asked the question basic questions like.
00:40:00.450 --> 00:40:03.180
Steve Bussey: Do you agree to the doctrines of the Salvation Army.
00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:20.280
Steve Bussey: Right, even the authority of scripture do you believe that in you know that we are totally depraved and justin disposable as well, do you believe in heaven and hell, and the response to me was, I am not accountable to you and I don't need to answer those questions.
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:21.660
Andy Miller III: Right right right.
00:40:22.140 --> 00:40:41.940
Steve Bussey: Now, when somebody says that that should signal to us wait a second you know if we cannot agree to the guardrails here then then really i'm not having a debate with a person who is aligned i'm having a debate with somebody who is a fox in the henhouse.
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:45.090
Steve Bussey: Right a wolf in sheep's clothing and that and here's The thing is.
00:40:45.540 --> 00:40:52.620
Steve Bussey: You know, we saw say what we need to respond pastor only to this now thinking about a shepherd who comes along and your job is to take.
00:40:52.830 --> 00:41:00.900
Steve Bussey: The pastor you want a pastor that is taking care of sheep and you have a wolf in sheep's clothing and you go here little wolfie.
00:41:00.990 --> 00:41:04.230
Steve Bussey: come here let's bring our flock and let's take care.
00:41:04.230 --> 00:41:04.530
Steve Bussey: of you.
00:41:05.220 --> 00:41:06.930
Steve Bussey: Take my shepherds procon like.
00:41:06.990 --> 00:41:12.090
Steve Bussey: Rescue you and bring you and cuddle you in and put you in with all of my sheep.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:13.620
Steve Bussey: That show leading a straight.
00:41:14.010 --> 00:41:19.920
Steve Bussey: know the shepherd turns his stop around and he uses that rod to to kill that.
00:41:20.070 --> 00:41:23.400
Steve Bussey: That that sounds very violent that sounds very aggressive.
00:41:23.610 --> 00:41:27.960
Steve Bussey: But here's the thing when there are walls that are threatening a sheep.
00:41:28.350 --> 00:41:32.910
Steve Bussey: You know, it is not just to respond pastor a little off.
00:41:33.240 --> 00:41:33.690
Steve Bussey: yeah in.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:39.390
Steve Bussey: fact it's probably one of the greatest criminal acts that a shepherd could do.
00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:46.800
Andy Miller III: Right it's a not to not act and to have, and I think I saw you interact there and I think some of that's gone now, but you know you still did it not attacking the person.
00:41:46.890 --> 00:41:48.690
Andy Miller III: We go and attack these ideas.
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:53.910
Steve Bussey: In fact, I was even attacking the ideas i'm saying what is the basis on which we can have the debate and.
00:41:53.910 --> 00:41:55.740
Andy Miller III: Can we have a conversation like.
00:41:56.100 --> 00:41:58.110
Andy Miller III: Maybe we could go ahead.
00:41:59.550 --> 00:42:01.320
Andy Miller III: Well, we what we're going to talk about at the end.
00:42:01.470 --> 00:42:11.460
Andy Miller III: But it let's just get there now talking about the idea of Canon in theology, and this is where like my teacher billy Abraham comes into play and his book cannon criteria and is there.
00:42:11.550 --> 00:42:13.710
Andy Miller III: A camp there it is wake up for doctrinal amnesia.
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:21.240
Andy Miller III: So it can we say there is such a thing as a canon of Salvation Army believes, and how would we get there.
00:42:21.720 --> 00:42:26.910
Andy Miller III: So this is, this is an important piece, for us to say like there is that and okay i'll give you an example.
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:37.590
Andy Miller III: I this podcast didn't work out and I had somebody on who's a prominent person online and other some technical difficulties that stopped this podcast from happening, and then then some.
00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:42.870
Andy Miller III: Things I haven't read done it, but what I what the goal was I walked through all 11 articles of faith.
00:42:43.710 --> 00:42:48.870
Andy Miller III: And I just step through and and, by the way, those in non Salvation Army context.
00:42:49.410 --> 00:42:58.530
Andy Miller III: If you're in the Washington holiest tradition, you would affirm all of these you would just like us to have sacraments in there until we die but that's another story okay so as we work through that.
00:42:58.710 --> 00:43:07.920
Andy Miller III: When when we went through all seven statements basically everyone, he said no, I can't I can't go I can't be that why can't take that one no I don't I don't believe that one anymore.
00:43:08.490 --> 00:43:11.190
Andy Miller III: And like or or maybe we get to try and he's like yeah.
00:43:11.580 --> 00:43:21.450
Andy Miller III: That works for me, but it might not be true for everybody, you know, like so that's the That was the perspective there's a rejection of what is the cat now we think like.
00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:28.590
Andy Miller III: I i'm i'm open to saying that there's a couple of words or a comma or something could be moved in the 11 articles of faith.
00:43:28.620 --> 00:43:32.340
Andy Miller III: Like okay there's certainly isn't but they represent basic ideas and.
00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:43.110
Andy Miller III: That comes within the tradition that is based upon scripture always thankful that our first article of faith is our doctrine, not just the Bible, but of revelation.
00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:47.790
Andy Miller III: yeah This is our doctrine of how God has revealed himself, so how.
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:49.860
Andy Miller III: is really logical statement.
00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:54.060
Andy Miller III: You know it's not a it's not just a biblical this statement.
00:43:54.330 --> 00:43:59.070
Andy Miller III: yeah, but it is an epistemological relevant tori statement, so if we if we have that as a.
00:43:59.340 --> 00:44:08.820
Andy Miller III: foundation that god's you know, created the world out of nothing and he's spoken in time and space until we like understand the scriptures are the primary way that happens, and then we work through a process.
00:44:09.150 --> 00:44:13.050
Andy Miller III: of how scriptures have been interpreted across the centuries, that.
00:44:13.680 --> 00:44:23.130
Andy Miller III: Let me get all the whole history of doctrine here, but we didn't come to a place where that our particular tradition and you could do this with the founders of various other movements in the same tradition.
00:44:23.790 --> 00:44:28.740
Andy Miller III: You know, through john Wesley to William booth that they had a distinct way to think about the salvation of the world.
00:44:29.010 --> 00:44:37.380
Andy Miller III: And a military image that helps us think about that the image that got of our work confronting Satan can confronting send in the world.
00:44:37.650 --> 00:44:44.190
Andy Miller III: like this, then I would think the the writings and the work they're not canonized in a sense that they are in the same value of scripture.
00:44:44.430 --> 00:44:51.660
Andy Miller III: But reading what women Catherine booth rope radiant the early leaders and Salvation Army help us define that how that has been crystallized through the years.
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:55.020
Andy Miller III: What do you think Steve what else how would you think about the canon.
00:44:55.170 --> 00:45:05.940
Steve Bussey: of Salvation Army theology I would absolutely agree with that and if I could just give another illustration to your point and you and I were actually both at the same conference in 2012 i'm in Florida at a.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.240
Andy Miller III: Oh.
00:45:06.270 --> 00:45:19.860
Steve Bussey: yeah yeah so social services conference right 2014 2014 sorry yeah that's right and and a very dear friend of mine stood up who had been brought to speak at the conference, and he said, you know doctrine five guy don't really believe that anymore.
00:45:20.340 --> 00:45:25.530
Steve Bussey: yeah and then he proceeded to go through, I don't believe and then doctrine 11 in heaven to hell, and so I think that's it.
00:45:25.770 --> 00:45:33.030
Steve Bussey: i'm sitting there like going like what are you drinking here i'm like this is crazy and we ended up going into back and forth afterwards, and I said, look at.
00:45:33.540 --> 00:45:41.970
Steve Bussey: If you don't believe in those things you've been given free will, you can choose not to believe those but at that point you step outside.
00:45:42.630 --> 00:45:49.530
Steve Bussey: The boundaries of what the finance the guardrails that define us in so in organizations or something called organization.
00:45:49.560 --> 00:45:57.510
Steve Bussey: The person that you know if you're working for apple but you're firmly committed to Samsung you don't have organizational fit.
00:45:57.870 --> 00:46:02.580
Steve Bussey: If you're working for Coca Cola, but you're firmly committed a Pepsi is the best way to do things.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:11.550
Steve Bussey: you're not a person that we're going to see fit, I think there's there's theological fit as well and and their their guard rails that any.
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:26.430
Steve Bussey: denomination has had to say, these are the foundations, these are the things that define who it is that we are that identity is fixed those values are fixed or transcendent right if you don't agree with those.
00:46:27.630 --> 00:46:27.900
Andy Miller III: yeah.
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:39.210
Steve Bussey: Then you need to step outside the guardrails that and to me, that is not a unkind thing that is just a I mean taken on a basic organizational level, so you know these guys Jim Collins and Jim.
00:46:40.050 --> 00:46:41.220
Steve Bussey: was built to last.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:57.780
Steve Bussey: This is secular trend right they see this core ideology that defines an engineering curriculum organization it's self identity that remains consistent through time and transcends product and market cycles technological breakthroughs management that's an individual leaders.
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:02.670
Steve Bussey: Basically, you don't believe in that stuff but it says that's ruining your history right.
00:47:02.970 --> 00:47:09.390
Steve Bussey: So, if that is rooted your history, it means that there is something that is consistent throughout.
00:47:09.660 --> 00:47:10.710
Steve Bussey: yeah that will.
00:47:10.890 --> 00:47:16.320
Steve Bussey: That is that is online there's a track that that you can either be on or off the track.
00:47:16.530 --> 00:47:20.670
Steve Bussey: Writing it off the track that's your decision, but you're no longer on the track which we're in now.
00:47:21.210 --> 00:47:22.260
Steve Bussey: Coming to your question i've.
00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:24.450
Steve Bussey: seen that as pre pre pre launch to.
00:47:24.750 --> 00:47:40.110
Steve Bussey: There is a track of writings that are consistent within the Salvation Army and within the broader you know Wesley in Holiness, and even a revivalist and I would say evangelical traditions right and it would go back as well to the early church fathers.
00:47:40.590 --> 00:47:46.620
Steve Bussey: Yes, I believe that we do need to like abraham's create suggest.
00:47:47.310 --> 00:47:49.650
Andy Miller III: You saying like Abraham just to be clear you're not talking about.
00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:51.510
Steve Bussey: Abraham William Abraham.
00:47:54.360 --> 00:48:07.200
Steve Bussey: And I would say again, like Thomas oden says, like you know this one class brilliant stuff right to me, you know and William booth said it like this, by the way, he says this.
00:48:08.430 --> 00:48:08.820
Steve Bussey: i'm sorry.
00:48:10.020 --> 00:48:14.160
Andy Miller III: Let me, let me jump in there about Thomas i'm just getting while you get that quote radio wherever you're going to pull up.
00:48:14.370 --> 00:48:21.120
Andy Miller III: The so we use that here is available similar I know asbury seminary does as well, his classic.
00:48:22.170 --> 00:48:34.740
Andy Miller III: Systematic theology used to be in three volumes look, if you read that and you're in one of these traditions there's not anything in there, that you know you that goes against the core beliefs instead like what will happen.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:35.700
Steve Bussey: As a result, these like.
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:49.050
Andy Miller III: Okay, as that gets particular allies in a did different domination, like in in our Steve that then goes towards those who are suffering it's kind of like applied to people who are homeless and a need and and.
00:48:49.590 --> 00:48:51.240
Andy Miller III: pizza by their churches so.
00:48:53.850 --> 00:48:54.150
Steve Bussey: well.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.260
Steve Bussey: Andy so there.
00:48:55.710 --> 00:48:56.400
Andy Miller III: yeah can you hear me.
00:48:56.640 --> 00:48:57.660
Steve Bussey: yeah yeah yeah.
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:01.410
Andy Miller III: I mean, I never even lost you because I was talking the whole time.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.210
Steve Bussey: Okay that's good shape so.
00:49:03.660 --> 00:49:10.320
Steve Bussey: So William booth said this in 1879 he said that the biggest when this when the Christian mission became the Salvation Army.
00:49:10.530 --> 00:49:19.470
Steve Bussey: There were a lot of people that were really deeply concerned because it was an innovation that was radical it was disruptive innovation and it led to incredible growth and impact right.
00:49:20.040 --> 00:49:34.170
Steve Bussey: But, but people were saying like have you compromise, have you changed, have you drifted from the great tradition of the of the Gospel and he said, we have not developed and improved into universalism unitarian ISM or nothing Aaron ISM.
00:49:34.290 --> 00:49:37.050
Steve Bussey: or any other form of infidelity and then he says.
00:49:37.290 --> 00:49:44.070
Steve Bussey: And we don't expect to ours is the same salvation taught in the Bible proclaimed by the prophets and apostles.
00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:54.480
Steve Bussey: preached by Luther and Wesley and Whitfield sealed by the blood of the martyrs, the very same salvation which was purchased by the sufferings and angry and blood of the son of God or there, that is.
00:49:55.050 --> 00:49:55.470
Steve Bussey: We believe.
00:49:56.520 --> 00:50:00.000
Steve Bussey: And that this and this along we'll set it right here that.
00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:08.490
Steve Bussey: yeah we are on the track of the old apostles you don't need to mix up at any other ingredients, the heavenly remedy.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:14.250
Steve Bussey: And so we've actually designed a model here, which also show for those who can't see it, who are listening.
00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:23.970
Steve Bussey: It basically tracks, the early church had people that derail whether it's narcissism or other heresies right that Salvation Army unitarian.
00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:33.390
Steve Bussey: universalism and then nothing areas which was an early form of secularism we're taking people off of tracks, so the question is for us in the southern economy today.
00:50:33.690 --> 00:50:41.610
Steve Bussey: What are the things that are seeking to derail us right, we need to both know what those are and we need to know what the right track is.
00:50:41.790 --> 00:50:50.490
Steve Bussey: And we need to not just be training people in terms of what the service for me is, but what are people that are on that same truck with us from you know the great commission to today.
00:50:50.910 --> 00:50:58.470
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah absolutely and maybe it's a good time for us to transition like so you and I affirm that there is a basis for saying there is a Salvation Army theology.
00:50:59.280 --> 00:50:59.910
Steve Bussey: Absolutely.
00:51:00.030 --> 00:51:01.890
Andy Miller III: So, like we can take now we're not saying.
00:51:02.250 --> 00:51:15.240
Andy Miller III: That can be refined that can be thought through that can be clarified, but there's a foundation from which we move in that direction and I maintain that that comes within the Covenant that every member of the savage me church signs and that's in our soldiers covenant.
00:51:16.350 --> 00:51:22.620
Andy Miller III: Which is still i'm still on my wall at this point, so I can confirm it now when things come about is that.
00:51:23.370 --> 00:51:33.570
Andy Miller III: there's some some resources that are being used within the United States within you know our particular expression of the Salvation Army in our context that.
00:51:34.050 --> 00:51:47.220
Andy Miller III: there's been some troubling trends within the media and people know i'm talking about so i'm just going to say it, and I want to be very cautious in in how I handle this and, like to do this in love, but trying to also be that pastor shepherd that god's called me to be and profit to.
00:51:48.570 --> 00:51:55.440
Andy Miller III: The Orange curriculum, please know that as you start to talk about this, there is not a at the start of it, not a bigger.
00:51:56.310 --> 00:52:04.260
Andy Miller III: I don't know there might be a bigger, but I was one of the biggest fans and I was so thankful my wife and I, we were the kind of when a test scores.
00:52:04.560 --> 00:52:15.960
Andy Miller III: We you can find five videos on the orange sight of me kind of like saying this is this, we need to find a new cup a new form new ways to communicate the same truth and I felt like they had done the.
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:16.530
Steve Bussey: Research.
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:30.570
Andy Miller III: They had done the work to like understand like how to get the kids there's a lot of like great resources that are used for parents great ways to think of things I went to the conference i've been a part of very thing so we've been i've been a fan of the method.
00:52:31.230 --> 00:52:40.920
Andy Miller III: At the same time there's been some troubling concerns that come from the organization as a whole, with their conference and some of these things that have been expressed lately like.
00:52:41.670 --> 00:52:48.180
Andy Miller III: So Steve why don't you just highlight we may give me a second to pull up some of the screenshots that unfortunately.
00:52:48.420 --> 00:52:50.250
Andy Miller III: I got a lot of people sending to me.
00:52:51.480 --> 00:53:01.620
Steve Bussey: Andy as well, I mean like again we've been you know, we ran a school for you, for training we're very much advocates of of the best methodology to be able to train on.
00:53:02.130 --> 00:53:09.180
Steve Bussey: It don't train your kids you're in serious trouble you have you know show me where your 14 year olds are and i'll tell you the future of your organization.
00:53:09.540 --> 00:53:17.820
Steve Bussey: wow right, you know and Catherine William booth I mean William and Kevin booth belief in this so much that one of the earliest books books and limbu throat was the training of children.
00:53:18.060 --> 00:53:26.850
Steve Bussey: And then I stopped titles how our children can be made and the scenes and soldiers right, you know now, the reason why they had this, though, is that in 1875.
00:53:27.270 --> 00:53:34.770
Steve Bussey: There was a drift in the Christian mission, where people were doing Sunday school, but it was not producing.
00:53:35.670 --> 00:53:44.940
Steve Bussey: True salvation within individuals, it was not producing the type of evidence of false salvation of children being transformed by the gospel.
00:53:45.420 --> 00:53:52.770
Steve Bussey: Do you know that William booth bandit because he said, we were not going to do any more successful, not because we don't want disciple kids.
00:53:53.040 --> 00:54:03.720
Steve Bussey: But because the methodology had been the message throughout in the methodology had been come corrupted and as a result of that he said, if we do, continue to do this.
00:54:04.080 --> 00:54:17.580
Steve Bussey: He says we inoculate our kids from the possibility of truly being transformed if we continue to perpetuate something that is not producing the evidence results that we see if the objective of which it's designed to accomplish.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:24.570
Steve Bussey: And so that led to the exploration of best better methodology which led to the founding of junior soldiers and eating at when to unblock.
00:54:25.110 --> 00:54:31.260
Steve Bussey: john Roberts in England, you know started the little soldier saw that became the methodology, because it was producing translating.
00:54:31.530 --> 00:54:41.520
Steve Bussey: This has always been a key point now today as well in 2010 I went to national headquarters and propose that we need to look at digital technology.
00:54:41.790 --> 00:54:55.980
Steve Bussey: And how we can find a new method by which to disciple as many kids as possible right that conversation led to the exploration that led to orange so again i'm very much any I have a degree.
00:54:56.010 --> 00:54:57.450
Steve Bussey: In innovation you.
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:03.420
Steve Bussey: know I mean I am a fan of finding new and creative and innovative ways to be able to accomplish.
00:55:03.780 --> 00:55:11.820
Steve Bussey: You know our mission right which is orange doesn't a very creative way I don't have any critique over any of that stuff, however.
00:55:13.470 --> 00:55:16.230
Andy Miller III: yeah why there is a big, however, and i'll give you give you a break.
00:55:16.560 --> 00:55:17.370
Steve Bussey: In the Cup.
00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:18.870
Andy Miller III: What are we sharing.
00:55:19.050 --> 00:55:29.670
Andy Miller III: And I think, as even I was a part of administering the curriculum, you know the curriculum resource this this like method over the last few years.
00:55:30.330 --> 00:55:41.940
Andy Miller III: I did see a little bit of a change of emphasis and this this got to be a bit of a concern now, this is at the outset of this conversation this part of our conversation we've been going for a while Steve.
00:55:43.560 --> 00:55:43.950
Andy Miller III: At the.
00:55:44.220 --> 00:55:56.940
Andy Miller III: Outside is like we are like orange can be who they want to be like they can do they can embrace humanism, they can embrace approach that like is more self authenticating.
00:55:57.660 --> 00:56:07.260
Andy Miller III: Now emphasize scripture go ahead um, but I think our challenge is to say, well, the our denomination which you know you and I both die that Salvation Army churches are.
00:56:08.160 --> 00:56:11.580
Andy Miller III: are paying for this right and we're buying a product and we.
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:25.890
Andy Miller III: We think a product should be consistent with who we are, as a movement and it shouldn't be anti sector and ethical so it's just a call like I hope it's still you I don't know about you Steve I can't say a few I hope it's still gets used because I think it's a great model.
00:56:26.220 --> 00:56:29.760
Andy Miller III: yeah I just that the mission has been diluted.
00:56:30.570 --> 00:56:38.010
Andy Miller III: You know sure get on to me for saying that i'm just closed minded narrow minded person, but I want my kids to receive the gospel truth.
00:56:38.730 --> 00:56:39.240
Andy Miller III: So that's a.
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:40.470
Andy Miller III: that's where I am.
00:56:40.740 --> 00:56:49.950
Steve Bussey: He can kind of add this as well just a bit of history here in 2003 I believe it was Christian Smith published his book soul searching which we came out the national study of youth and religion.
00:56:50.310 --> 00:57:02.370
Steve Bussey: And in that he coined the phrase, where he saw across the board, there was a new religion right, which some people said it's actually new worldview, which would be what he calls moralistic therapeutic Deism.
00:57:02.670 --> 00:57:08.490
Steve Bussey: Right what that, basically, is is you know, rather than talking about sin and consequence we talked about morality.
00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:13.740
Steve Bussey: run the talking about theology, we talked about therapy God wants you to feel good you know it's something that's.
00:57:13.980 --> 00:57:22.980
Steve Bussey: run the talking about a transcendent imminent God right we talked about almost a theistic God, who is an ounce of landlord who really isn't you know, like a genie in the bottle you call when you need them.
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:36.270
Steve Bussey: yeah what's scary is last year on the barna research group came out and they based upon Christmas definition they predicted that 70% of American evangelical.
00:57:36.690 --> 00:57:37.440
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes it's.
00:57:37.770 --> 00:57:40.650
Steve Bussey: A fully embraced moralistic therapeutic Deism.
00:57:41.220 --> 00:57:43.680
Steve Bussey: right that to me a startled.
00:57:44.040 --> 00:57:50.910
Steve Bussey: Right absolutely story that means, and then it goes through Okay, we believe, to can guard rails on 11 doctrines.
00:57:51.300 --> 00:58:06.660
Steve Bussey: That this if people are embracing this they're not necessarily embracing justification sanctification they're not in a state of continue to be in faith, which means that we could intentionally be inoculating people convincing them they're saved, but actually sending them to hell.
00:58:07.020 --> 00:58:08.400
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah it's.
00:58:09.810 --> 00:58:11.880
Andy Miller III: hard to say that Steve but it's just the truth, I mean.
00:58:12.510 --> 00:58:20.160
Andy Miller III: If we affirm what we like what we've learned from beginning like you know, of course, this is when we said chief Jane danger for the next generation is a belief of heaven without help.
00:58:21.780 --> 00:58:24.690
Andy Miller III: i'm okay to exist in a society where people don't believe in hell.
00:58:24.930 --> 00:58:28.980
Andy Miller III: yeah right i'm not okay with that being a Salvation Army.
00:58:30.240 --> 00:58:30.990
Steve Bussey: Under percent.
00:58:31.080 --> 00:58:36.780
Andy Miller III: yeah and so like this is like it's okay like you're free orange to do what you want to do like that's fine.
00:58:36.930 --> 00:58:37.230
Andy Miller III: But and.
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:42.480
Steve Bussey: So it just comes to that point they can believe that, but they need to not then they need to step out of this.
00:58:43.110 --> 00:58:44.970
Steve Bussey: On a they should come to our core.
00:58:45.180 --> 00:58:51.750
Steve Bussey: You know and stuff like that, but but but, but you violate your covenant of sponsorship level loan officer ship right.
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:55.860
Andy Miller III: If you do, and you can, and this is exactly what's happened in methodism.
00:58:56.100 --> 00:59:02.460
Andy Miller III: Is that there is they tried to come up with ways say okay let's come up with a agree to disagree thing and we'll just all.
00:59:02.820 --> 00:59:10.980
Andy Miller III: find ways to make this happen there is called the one church plan that existed for a while, but know if people aren't content for you and I, to believe.
00:59:11.220 --> 00:59:19.200
Andy Miller III: In these core doctrines like they want us to change like I think people generally want us to change because they think they found the truth and we're we're not change we're not changing here.
00:59:19.650 --> 00:59:31.680
Andy Miller III: So this is that I like for you to highlight some of the things that you've seen, particularly that are concerning again, like you, this what we might be able to do this it's just you know to write leaders and say look.
00:59:32.220 --> 00:59:44.310
Andy Miller III: These particular things are problematic, and we were not saying that needs all all go down into, but we want things that are consistent with what we've defined Salvation Army what Salvation Army theology has been defined, to be.
00:59:44.970 --> 01:00:02.640
Steve Bussey: One of the first big thing I mean again, you know, in terms of the best method to be able to deliver the Gospel i'm all for using fun i'm using i'm all for using creativity, I mean I train people on how to use creative strategies right, but if creativity compromises content we're in trouble.
01:00:03.090 --> 01:00:22.410
Steve Bussey: Right So the first thing is every single bit of what we are doing needs to have be stylized in the best way, but it needs to be packed with substance from our youngest kids to our tour tour adults who are using this and I find that there isn't the depth if we don't have.
01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:23.670
Andy Miller III: anything to say save exceed.
01:00:23.970 --> 01:00:29.730
Andy Miller III: The like what are some specifics, like you, are more attuned to what is going on at their conference and some of those things like I have one.
01:00:29.730 --> 01:00:30.090
Steve Bussey: done.
01:00:30.210 --> 01:00:30.990
Andy Miller III: I just yes morning.
01:00:31.020 --> 01:00:39.210
Steve Bussey: yeah so so so the biblical worldview piece right Secondly, I would say that if we are introducing things.
01:00:40.500 --> 01:00:52.500
Steve Bussey: That are not just sort of water down but are actually contrary to a biblical worldview it's one thing to sort of be watering down the biblical view but when you shift from a water done biblical worldview to a.
01:00:52.830 --> 01:01:04.770
Steve Bussey: To a worldview, that is antithetical to a biblical worldview that's when my alarms are going off for now my daughter is in charge of Christian education from the south from in the western territory.
01:01:05.100 --> 01:01:17.070
Steve Bussey: Right so she went to the orange Conference, and I mean we do know as well that you know I mean you can read you know, there was some reaction before, when some of their promo material came out which seemed very humanistic.
01:01:17.160 --> 01:01:18.360
Andy Miller III: and its outcome right.
01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:26.400
Steve Bussey: But my daughter started sending me pictures of things which were on the screen, she said that while they were at their Conference, I mean you know they were singing.
01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:39.420
Steve Bussey: songs worship songs from the greatest showman you know, and you know and something, then they started sharing these quotes and it was like a strange like on she said she said, like it was like scripture was.
01:01:39.870 --> 01:01:47.940
Steve Bussey: sort of almost like the stepchild that sort of got mentioned on the sideline, but they were sharing foods from that that were really I mean like if you were.
01:01:48.810 --> 01:02:01.170
Steve Bussey: If you were on oprah winfrey you know it would be, it would resonate you know I mean, but what but it doesn't really sort of it's not written in any type of scripture or in type any type of person tradition that we're talking about.
01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:11.700
Steve Bussey: So that type of thing began to really, really signal red flags for me saying wait a second you know, and I think, at best, you know this warrants a conversation of saying.
01:02:12.690 --> 01:02:25.800
Steve Bussey: We need to make sure if we are both investing in your in your company, and along with that utilizing you as as a vehicle through which to shape a biblical worldview, you need to you need to be aligned to what we're doing.
01:02:25.860 --> 01:02:28.080
Andy Miller III: Otherwise, we might not have time to go into some.
01:02:28.110 --> 01:02:34.020
Andy Miller III: specifics, because we are, we are unfortunately running off, but some of the things that come with this like it was like a heavy.
01:02:34.650 --> 01:02:42.030
Andy Miller III: heavy emphasis on human humaneness like lucky and human and I think that's like the challenge that we have is like.
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:52.920
Andy Miller III: Where where does the doctrine of sin fit in two hours right now i'm again I, you have to use it, though language doctrine Shin hematology you have to say, like this, so today we're not asking you to be like intellectual.
01:02:53.190 --> 01:02:53.940
Andy Miller III: In this, but we're.
01:02:54.090 --> 01:03:01.050
Andy Miller III: Saying like where does what what what is the goal of what's happening to be more authentically human okay.
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:11.970
Andy Miller III: i'm managing there's a way you could condition that to make it work within our like we are creators, be this way, but because of sin then Jesus resurrection presents us with me OK, I can maybe couch that.
01:03:12.330 --> 01:03:26.700
Andy Miller III: But what ends up being is it leans back in on the Christian Smith moral therapeutic Deism which I think like we're not where you and I aren't prepared to be as specific as as we can and we don't have the time to go into details, I did get this morning just.
01:03:26.700 --> 01:03:26.940
Steve Bussey: As I.
01:03:27.090 --> 01:03:28.200
Andy Miller III: walk into this podcast.
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:36.150
Andy Miller III: That the and maybe this is wrong so i'm willing to be corrected and Stephen are both willing to be corrected and we'll come back and say.
01:03:36.150 --> 01:03:36.930
Andy Miller III: That if we need to.
01:03:37.200 --> 01:04:00.720
Andy Miller III: But that the the person who designs, the Director of the 252 kids and preaching curriculum on his instagram post identifies himself as he him and his he, like has that there he really is retreated Richard rohr quotes that and also the same thing with john self Shelby spawn spawn.
01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:13.170
Andy Miller III: A retweet saying ultimate truth from the actual person, this is a quote he put out ultimate truth is never well served by little words developed by limited human minds.
01:04:14.340 --> 01:04:20.520
Andy Miller III: So we used to be cautious with what we have here like can is truth discoverable yeah.
01:04:21.240 --> 01:04:22.830
Andy Miller III: Is there objective truth.
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:34.740
Steve Bussey: And I mean I think what scared me equals Richard rohr Brian mclaren rob bell for those who might not know who these people are these are people that have seriously question the foundation of evangelical believes.
01:04:34.980 --> 01:04:56.220
Steve Bussey: In fact, Richard rohr who races book The universal grace where he basically sort of challenges our entire solitary ology he actually dedicate his book to his dog in him, he is who Christ, is he says, I can probably say that demons his dog was Christ for me.
01:04:56.790 --> 01:04:57.870
Andy Miller III: wow wow.
01:04:58.020 --> 01:04:58.530
Steve Bussey: I mean.
01:04:59.310 --> 01:05:06.630
Andy Miller III: yeah obviously like the ontological reality they're like it's one thing to say, like when you've done, at least at least you've done it to me, but maybe not your dog.
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:12.270
Steve Bussey: yeah exactly i'm kind of like you know this isn't somebody who I necessarily want my kids to be trained.
01:05:12.300 --> 01:05:13.080
Steve Bussey: You know, you know.
01:05:13.290 --> 01:05:14.400
Andy Miller III: If this is another one.
01:05:15.150 --> 01:05:15.420
Andy Miller III: Like.
01:05:15.540 --> 01:05:17.670
Steve Bussey: Who was in training or kids I mean i'm red flags.
01:05:18.210 --> 01:05:30.060
Andy Miller III: He also from the universal Christ another orange retreat was a spiritual spirituality is about honoring the human journey loving it and living in all its wonder in tragedy.
01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:36.570
Andy Miller III: Okay, I can take a second to find a way to condition all of that, but i'm.
01:05:36.810 --> 01:05:49.500
Andy Miller III: honoring the human journey okay does that what does that include what worldview does that include does it include a doctrine of understanding of the fall redemption like or or however, and we, we know where Richard rohr falls on this yeah.
01:05:49.530 --> 01:05:54.540
Andy Miller III: Does that mean that we just and this, this is why i'm like really cautious with the instagram like that, because.
01:05:54.990 --> 01:06:03.630
Andy Miller III: Often, people like go to the instagram they go to Richard rohr because he's written on this well, what does this lead people to think about themselves like Does that mean my instincts and all that I am.
01:06:04.470 --> 01:06:09.150
Andy Miller III: are basically okay like i'm honoring the human journey my own how i'm feeling about myself.
01:06:09.390 --> 01:06:14.100
Steve Bussey: And again when you read for when you read what Brian mclaren is coming out when you come up with these guys okay so.
01:06:14.580 --> 01:06:23.040
Steve Bussey: they're not saying this in the back, and this is some new theology, this is the same yeah this is this is narcissism this is, you know, terrorism, this is universalism.
01:06:23.460 --> 01:06:31.590
Steve Bussey: You know, this is what what tom's Odin was wrestling with in the 40s and 50s and it's like the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting it to.
01:06:31.590 --> 01:06:34.500
Steve Bussey: buy yeah every single time.
01:06:34.770 --> 01:06:38.520
Steve Bussey: This has hollowed out denominations and killed them.
01:06:38.910 --> 01:06:39.510
Steve Bussey: yeah.
01:06:39.810 --> 01:06:51.000
Steve Bussey: You know so here's the thing if it's a Trojan horse that has parasitical the nature, that is, we know, has proven again and again and again to eat something up and destroy it.
01:06:51.540 --> 01:06:59.160
Steve Bussey: You know run them being a holiness traditional being a hollowness tradition, you know because we've been eating from the inside out right.
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:16.770
Steve Bussey: At what point do we say no i'm sorry this isn't something new, this isn't some new experiment, this is as for 2000 years that track has led to death, therefore, if we do this, this is going to kill every person who we are committed to saving.
01:07:17.700 --> 01:07:24.570
Andy Miller III: Steve your breach and some truth there my man like I, this is very hard for us like like I would come to this.
01:07:24.630 --> 01:07:25.320
Steve Bussey: But actually this.
01:07:26.640 --> 01:07:27.840
Steve Bussey: But kind of kind of just say any.
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:29.160
Steve Bussey: This is not.
01:07:29.250 --> 01:07:30.030
Steve Bussey: Hard stuff.
01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:32.490
Steve Bussey: So.
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:33.210
Andy Miller III: it's it's.
01:07:33.330 --> 01:07:35.820
Andy Miller III: it's different you know I mean I say it's hard.
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:46.320
Steve Bussey: yeah there is so here's here's the tough thing friends, whether we are on the extreme Right or the extreme left there are syncretism sufi fallen.
01:07:46.710 --> 01:07:58.890
Steve Bussey: When you stand true to what you know your denominations historic doctrines have been you're not being a radical if you are being a regular if you feel like you need to whisper.
01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:07.740
Steve Bussey: I believe in the 11 doctrines of the subject of don't tell anyone because they got radical we got something wrong right.
01:08:08.100 --> 01:08:11.940
Steve Bussey: yeah be like mcdonald's is saying I don't tell anyone that I like big MACs.
01:08:12.030 --> 01:08:14.790
Steve Bussey: You know, oh cuz I could be fired from McDonalds well.
01:08:16.110 --> 01:08:17.070
Andy Miller III: Let me tell you Steve when.
01:08:18.510 --> 01:08:21.570
Andy Miller III: I hear from a lot of those people who are whispering that right now.
01:08:22.170 --> 01:08:28.710
Andy Miller III: And I don't criticize them because some of them are in positions where it's really hard for them to figure out like they're honestly trying to balance out how do I.
01:08:29.010 --> 01:08:35.370
Andy Miller III: navigate and leverage the opportunities that I have to influence change, and you know, for what it's worth like i'm not in a position.
01:08:35.580 --> 01:08:42.540
Andy Miller III: To do that sort of changed like I was a year ago, when I was services have your term officer, but I can do this now like, I have a little bit more freedom to do this type.
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:52.200
Andy Miller III: But what's happened is because of me, being in this seat right now it's led to other people communicating to me and look, I just want you know there's other people out there and I encourage you like not.
01:08:52.740 --> 01:09:00.420
Andy Miller III: Like my show isn't going to be like Joe rogan number I don't like i'm not trying to make a point i'm just trying to connect people have similar beliefs like.
01:09:00.750 --> 01:09:13.500
Andy Miller III: If you if you hear what Stephen are saying and you resonate with it share this with other people like let's just find avenues for encouraging people, and there are groups like I saw an interesting one pop up today by I think major Richard PS.
01:09:13.680 --> 01:09:13.860
Andy Miller III: yeah.
01:09:14.010 --> 01:09:20.940
Andy Miller III: From the Internet and division and Salvation Army and he said um and he had a group Facebook group for a while it was kind of like committed to.
01:09:21.180 --> 01:09:33.330
Andy Miller III: Talk about Holiness, but now he's like felt like okay Holiness is a part of it, but it's going to be orthodoxy Salvation Army orthodox like people in the consent everything that we've been saying so, there are other people out there, but it is time, it is time.
01:09:33.390 --> 01:09:33.720
Steve Bussey: Because.
01:09:34.080 --> 01:09:35.370
Andy Miller III: They your voice your voice.
01:09:35.610 --> 01:09:42.870
Andy Miller III: You know, like we encourage you to do that it might just be a simple because I tell you what the 3%, on the other side, whatever it might be.
01:09:43.350 --> 01:09:53.490
Andy Miller III: Are are definitely making their voices heard, so we want to like encourage you do that there's another thing Steve to let me let you comment on that, and then I hope we get to the polity question.
01:09:53.520 --> 01:10:03.510
Steve Bussey: yeah yeah, can I just say this in a post mortem of next methodism what I would say is those 58,000 people should have spoken up I studied at nyu.
01:10:03.780 --> 01:10:15.570
Steve Bussey: In culture right and MEDIA I studied with the people who are the architects of a lot of the stuff right, and this is the the the the the political theorist.
01:10:16.620 --> 01:10:26.280
Steve Bussey: Antonio Gramsci who introduced hegemonic thinking, the idea of a person who has power who creates a solid core team of their beliefs.
01:10:26.820 --> 01:10:38.340
Steve Bussey: that that is the the strategy which Saul alinsky you know Thompson was talking about he what he says he creates a counter head demonic force that challenges the hegemonic dominant force but.
01:10:38.580 --> 01:10:41.610
Steve Bussey: What this person does is takes everybody in between that.
01:10:41.850 --> 01:10:47.820
Steve Bussey: and stereotypes them that are saying and it's called a calf the trap right.
01:10:48.090 --> 01:10:59.010
Steve Bussey: Where it says, if you speak up, you will be labeled as the extreme stereotype that we've created so everyone goes oh i'm just not gonna say anything that.
01:10:59.910 --> 01:11:07.590
Steve Bussey: Because if I say something I will be associated with it that's called the calf calf calf calf calf trap it's a it's a counter hegemonic strategy.
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:13.410
Steve Bussey: The most powerful thing which every salvation is every Methodist every Church of the nazarene.
01:11:13.710 --> 01:11:27.510
Steve Bussey: church and, as you guys you guys have lots of attacks going on there as well, you know, we need to begin to leverage the testimony of faithful believers and it's not wrong it's not radical to say.
01:11:28.080 --> 01:11:38.580
Steve Bussey: This is not aligned this leader is not aligned this communication method is not aligned this teaching is not aligned, if that is wrong then fire me.
01:11:39.030 --> 01:11:48.930
Andy Miller III: In this case, to i'm going to just refer people back to because of something else that's come up to my podcast I did with matt errors Dr matters President Wesley biblical seminary on.
01:11:49.890 --> 01:11:57.540
Andy Miller III: mixed messages on human sexuality, that that I put out because I saw there was enough coming out that was question like from.
01:11:57.780 --> 01:12:05.640
Andy Miller III: Official Salvation Army sources and I noticed has happened and other traditions to that is inconsistent with our articles of faith was inconsistent with the stands we've taken.
01:12:05.910 --> 01:12:13.320
Andy Miller III: into some more of that has happened, and maybe we'll provide links this from the Australian territory, like there's been things like a clear move away.
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:23.040
Andy Miller III: From scriptures teaching and so like these things are in place in the challenge is like these other voices come in and it might feel powerless in the midst of this.
01:12:23.340 --> 01:12:29.910
Andy Miller III: yeah, but we do have a system and i'm not going to give this justin and just going to have to like be about five things we need to cover in the next podcast sometimes.
01:12:31.140 --> 01:12:31.650
Steve Bussey: For sure.
01:12:32.010 --> 01:12:36.990
Andy Miller III: i'm eating my lunch time which is fine, but also to get back so here's here's what I say is like.
01:12:38.310 --> 01:12:45.540
Andy Miller III: Our system is such that we have a hierarchical system now there's already putting off buzzwords that people have a is really problematic.
01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:55.770
Andy Miller III: At the same time, we have a polity like the structure of our denomination is such that there is one executing officer.
01:12:56.220 --> 01:12:58.260
Andy Miller III: Was that word like their their tasks CEO.
01:12:58.500 --> 01:13:06.270
Andy Miller III: yeah there's it's time for accountability and what a great the benefit that Salvation Army has over the Methodist church united Methodist Church is that.
01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:12.660
Andy Miller III: The leaders who promote certain things if they actually hold people accountable to it, it can happen.
01:13:13.170 --> 01:13:24.060
Andy Miller III: Like that truth of the authority of scripture they just need accountability so i've often said over the last year, where many denominations are right now.
01:13:24.360 --> 01:13:36.150
Andy Miller III: Is there a place for accountability or division, so if you say you believe these things we need to hold people accountable to it, otherwise what you're actually leading and guiding is inconsistent with who you are.
01:13:36.450 --> 01:13:38.370
Andy Miller III: yeah that's that that's the point that I think we're at.
01:13:38.580 --> 01:13:48.030
Steve Bussey: And I would say this governance is not a new idea, you know governance has been with us since the beginning right and the question is, are we leveraging or a talk risky right.
01:13:48.240 --> 01:13:49.410
Steve Bussey: was created for so.
01:13:49.530 --> 01:13:51.090
Steve Bussey: So we were talking about this.
01:13:51.120 --> 01:13:56.970
Steve Bussey: Yesterday, as well that Frederick booth Tucker wrote a biography of Catherine booze and in that.
01:13:57.660 --> 01:14:04.200
Steve Bussey: He was talking about actually the Methodist church and some of the conferences conference which are having after Wesley had died.
01:14:04.710 --> 01:14:11.490
Steve Bussey: And you know he had a point 100 who were going to succeed, to him Jay bez bunting at that point was in charge, he was very much a.
01:14:12.030 --> 01:14:21.420
Steve Bussey: despotic autocrat I think you can say, and it created a lot of conflict, at the same time, you had transatlantic revivals coming over from America James corden phoebe multiple honor and others.
01:14:21.750 --> 01:14:30.480
Steve Bussey: who were there and and it created a conflict, you know with the movement of the western in the form of sort of came out of that which was very sort of democratic in nature and things like that.
01:14:31.080 --> 01:14:41.730
Steve Bussey: Catherine William booth we're looking for something that would hold out, they could see benefits in the wesleyan Methodist and benefits in the western reformers, particularly in the fly sheets were going on the team was.
01:14:41.760 --> 01:14:45.720
Steve Bussey: 4949 yeah yeah yeah it went over several years, I think I believe.
01:14:46.140 --> 01:14:54.360
Steve Bussey: But but, but what they want is is they use these terms very big talker he said that we're able to combine the stability and elasticity.
01:14:54.810 --> 01:15:09.690
Steve Bussey: Of those two movements stability, you know, have a talker see in terms of our identity and our purpose our doctrines and our disciplines and then elasticity in terms of our strategy and structure that we, the solution again the Cup.
01:15:10.200 --> 01:15:24.690
Steve Bussey: has got to always innovate, but you need your authority to make sure that the Gospel is instilled in every program every curriculum every person, you know, and if it isn't that misalignment that's where we need to step in and.
01:15:24.990 --> 01:15:26.700
Andy Miller III: boy it's worth autocracy.
01:15:26.790 --> 01:15:30.060
Andy Miller III: isn't necessarily we're talking like in the pure political sense of that word.
01:15:30.270 --> 01:15:38.790
Andy Miller III: Know said I I talked to see almost in our time, it would be even the role of a CEO in a corporation.
01:15:38.910 --> 01:15:40.290
Andy Miller III: Like there their job is like.
01:15:40.410 --> 01:15:42.870
Andy Miller III: To maintain the mission of people in charge your operation.
01:15:42.900 --> 01:15:43.860
Steve Bussey: there's people protected.
01:15:44.370 --> 01:16:03.000
Andy Miller III: that's right So when I say 1849 why it's worth there was at the expulsion from the wesleyan Methodist conference this was like a denomination of sorts of what they wouldn't have used that term at that time kicked out three people, including William booth first pastor.
01:16:03.300 --> 01:16:05.280
Andy Miller III: from Nottingham Samuel done.
01:16:05.430 --> 01:16:11.490
Andy Miller III: And so, like this is all, and this is why i'm working on my dissertation should not feel like there's enough movement ecclesial logically.
01:16:11.820 --> 01:16:25.950
Andy Miller III: In these first you know 55 years 60 years of methodism after john Wesley where there was like trying to figure out what it meant to embraces like achieve which had a very similar autocratic focus I like.
01:16:26.400 --> 01:16:32.550
Andy Miller III: Like he was primarily or but, yet it was a reform movement so they're trying to fit to the Church of England so we're trying to figure that out.
01:16:32.910 --> 01:16:45.990
Andy Miller III: And then, by time we get to the point when William booth leaves the methods new connection, which is one of these splinter groups that came off of methodism he did so because of polity now.
01:16:46.050 --> 01:16:47.250
Andy Miller III: Now this is the.
01:16:47.280 --> 01:16:58.770
Andy Miller III: keep this in mind, like this is why the Salvation Army eventually comes into existence is because there's an ecclesial logical matter there wasn't somebody putting in the conference was making a decision of political decision.
01:16:59.850 --> 01:17:04.440
Andy Miller III: And what that was was basically no way in booth you're going to have to move up the chairs, but also.
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:09.570
Andy Miller III: They didn't affirm the role of the evangelist from efficient for.
01:17:10.080 --> 01:17:10.260
Andy Miller III: yeah.
01:17:10.500 --> 01:17:19.530
Andy Miller III: I think I think it's an athlete logical matter they didn't like he wanted to be an itinerant evangelists and they wouldn't affirm that so that's part of why he left and What did he start now I don't like to our hierarchy I think of more.
01:17:20.160 --> 01:17:29.790
Andy Miller III: Because there's problems in Hindi at down to future generations yeah because it has become unconnected to the reality of the of the real world in the field, but what ends up happening.
01:17:30.690 --> 01:17:38.700
Andy Miller III: Is that that William booth starts this group and it's I think of it more as a systolic its ascending it's a coordinating admission it's accountability.
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:40.500
Andy Miller III: So that's that's part of what I would.
01:17:40.710 --> 01:17:40.860
Steve Bussey: say.
01:17:40.980 --> 01:17:51.870
Steve Bussey: Can I just add to that welcome to talk with hierarchy as well, I can actually show you from 1924 there was an organizational study of the Salvation Army done that showed the flowchart.
01:17:52.380 --> 01:18:01.200
Steve Bussey: Of when eventually booth was commander of the army in America and basically the flowchart was about 30 different people, all of which an answer to eventually booth.
01:18:01.500 --> 01:18:01.980
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.
01:18:02.040 --> 01:18:07.470
Steve Bussey: Interestingly enough, that was a flat organizational structure, but it was still autocratic.
01:18:07.860 --> 01:18:16.110
Steve Bussey: In 1969 when booz Allen Hamilton did a study they actually took the GM model and built that into the service owners lot of extra for which have built.
01:18:16.290 --> 01:18:25.170
Steve Bussey: Multiple layers autocracy, which then almost became more bureaucratic rather than autocratic I actually think we need to understand what is the proper theology of a taxi.
01:18:25.470 --> 01:18:36.120
Steve Bussey: Now, going back to the Salvation Army in 1875 William booth adopted the policy of the Methodist new connection and immediately had political issues within the Christian mission.
01:18:36.420 --> 01:18:42.990
Steve Bussey: And that's where you know bramble booth or Scott railton other said we don't need a general superintendent, we need a general.
01:18:43.440 --> 01:18:43.890
Steve Bussey: Right.
01:18:44.100 --> 01:18:55.470
Steve Bussey: That is going to say let's stop debating these things like we know what is true let's stand by what is true, and today we have a general still right.
01:18:55.530 --> 01:19:07.500
Steve Bussey: That is able to say, this is our doctrine that you know and i'm glad that our general has said, this is where we stand on these issues right and and I think that's not that that that actually can be a strength that can.
01:19:07.500 --> 01:19:09.810
Andy Miller III: Actually fulfill those statements that he's.
01:19:09.870 --> 01:19:13.530
Andy Miller III: That the generals had through the years you know, in general, after General has been.
01:19:13.530 --> 01:19:16.080
Andy Miller III: considered which which.
01:19:16.290 --> 01:19:19.350
Andy Miller III: demonstrates that there is such a thing as the Salvation Army theology.
01:19:19.620 --> 01:19:21.600
Steve Bussey: yeah absolutely absolutely.
01:19:22.410 --> 01:19:29.310
Andy Miller III: Is accountability, now we don't know what's happening behind the scenes, so we get we leave room for that that we might not understand the full picture.
01:19:29.670 --> 01:19:39.510
Andy Miller III: We do we do think like a when people are breaking off from scripture when they're breaking out from the consensual tradition of the Church, this is where we get into trouble.
01:19:39.660 --> 01:19:41.220
Steve Bussey: Now I do think that that's supposed to speak to.
01:19:41.220 --> 01:19:53.610
Steve Bussey: Discipline where, if you have somebody that is not aligned that leader has the right to remove that person, you know, William booth removed some of his own children right yeah you know.
01:19:53.700 --> 01:20:04.800
Andy Miller III: And again i'm making the argument interesting Steve We just need to come back together that what what happens with the the three children that left as ecclesial logical crisis.
01:20:05.160 --> 01:20:05.550
Andy Miller III: yeah.
01:20:05.730 --> 01:20:07.440
Steve Bussey: yeah I mean this is like the neutral about.
01:20:07.680 --> 01:20:12.090
Andy Miller III: How the church works, but that's for my dissertation which I probably need to be writing right now.
01:20:12.930 --> 01:20:14.250
Steve Bussey: And I finished with this last thing.
01:20:14.340 --> 01:20:15.240
Andy Miller III: One more thing yeah.
01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:23.880
Steve Bussey: Just lastly it's very, very quick, because I think it's summarize up everything that we've talked about from the beginning to the end, Peter greer and Chris horse have written a brilliant book called mission drift.
01:20:24.120 --> 01:20:30.990
Steve Bussey: Actually, the subtitle of it, let me see where I put the subtitle on it anyways it's basically our leaders churches and.
01:20:31.290 --> 01:20:37.920
Steve Bussey: charities can basically say true you know the another crisis that's facing our leaders churches and charities.
01:20:38.370 --> 01:20:44.910
Steve Bussey: But they introduce three different definitions mission true mission drift in mission untrue, and I think every single one of us need to be thinking about this.
01:20:45.150 --> 01:20:50.760
Steve Bussey: They define a mission to organization as an organization that knows the DNA of their founders.
01:20:51.120 --> 01:21:03.270
Steve Bussey: And replicate and reinforce that DNA in their organizations it change and adapt your that, certainly, but they don't budge on mission their leaders are uniform on immutable.
01:21:03.930 --> 01:21:10.230
Steve Bussey: They wake up thinking about their core identity and garden with the tenacious and contagious Ferber.
01:21:10.890 --> 01:21:18.270
Steve Bussey: mission drift though unfold slowly like a current security organizations away from their core purpose and identity.
01:21:18.690 --> 01:21:34.290
Steve Bussey: And then, a mission on true organization is a point when the flames of Christian distinctiveness lose all visibility, despite the founding identity, they no longer have any concerns about their Christian mission or any desire to create sorry safeguards to protect it.
01:21:35.430 --> 01:21:38.070
Steve Bussey: I think the card question for all of us.
01:21:38.340 --> 01:21:47.220
Steve Bussey: both as individuals and as denominations is ask ourselves, are we being mission true are we in a state of drift or winona state where we're fully untrue.
01:21:47.640 --> 01:21:49.170
Steve Bussey: If we are untrue friends.
01:21:49.230 --> 01:21:55.140
Steve Bussey: I mean, we believe that you know you know repenting you know confessing.
01:21:56.220 --> 01:21:57.480
Steve Bussey: Restoring is.
01:21:58.530 --> 01:22:04.050
Andy Miller III: It might maybe a litmus test for that is like how often in have you called for repentance.
01:22:04.380 --> 01:22:10.080
Andy Miller III: yeah how often How often have you called for me i'm not saying just like on these matters like.
01:22:10.230 --> 01:22:11.160
Andy Miller III: Often, does that happen.
01:22:11.190 --> 01:22:15.480
Steve Bussey: In your congregation I think I think the challenge is that so often.
01:22:15.690 --> 01:22:17.610
Steve Bussey: We can see that so clearly and other people.
01:22:18.210 --> 01:22:21.270
Steve Bussey: Right, but our hubris causes us to realize well.
01:22:21.390 --> 01:22:23.970
Steve Bussey: I am completely aligned it's everyone else's online.
01:22:24.180 --> 01:22:25.590
Steve Bussey: I asked myself Steve.
01:22:25.890 --> 01:22:36.510
Steve Bussey: Am I in a state of drift Steve am I, being untrue right and that's The thing is that if every one of us could have the humility to ask yourself those questions I think a lot of these things will begin to Preston so.
01:22:37.140 --> 01:22:43.410
Andy Miller III: you're right yep and there's somebody I think I ever heard this from Isaiah Allen who used to be certainly.
01:22:43.440 --> 01:22:50.970
Andy Miller III: He said he quoted somebody else I can't remember who it was he's like he says no problem in our tradition couldn't be solved with better discipleship.
01:22:51.570 --> 01:22:53.190
Andy Miller III: Absolutely like I.
01:22:54.900 --> 01:22:56.520
Steve Bussey: sense yeah.
01:22:56.730 --> 01:22:58.440
Andy Miller III: I believe that part of where we are.
01:22:58.590 --> 01:23:01.740
Andy Miller III: So thanks so much for your time see we definitely are going to be doing this again.
01:23:02.070 --> 01:23:14.910
Andy Miller III: And we have other subjects that we didn't get to read i'm thankful thankful for you and the influence that you and Sharon have and looking forward to seeing where this goes if you all in mind so again subscribing liking.
01:23:15.810 --> 01:23:21.900
Andy Miller III: sharing this with other people, even if you don't feel like you're in position to share public and Facebook they'll, of course, that or social media that's a great way.
01:23:22.050 --> 01:23:27.390
Andy Miller III: sharing it via email like say hey some of these things that Andy and see are talking about I think really are connected.
01:23:27.720 --> 01:23:35.400
Andy Miller III: To some of the problems that we're experiencing in in note to like if you try to characterize what we're doing is like this hateful sort of thing or whatever.
01:23:35.760 --> 01:23:46.620
Andy Miller III: Just remember like we started off by talking about the beauty of the Gospel that we're four and we want that we want to express that so thanks so much Steve and we'll be in touch.
01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:56.700
Steve Bussey: and any thanks so much for all that you're doing love the podcast you got to keep keep doing this man keep speaking prophetically into the broader church and into the Salvation Army.
01:23:57.510 --> 01:23:59.640
Andy Miller III: Thanks Steve all right i'll just pause.
01:24:00.240 --> 01:24:00.360