Enneagram: Thumbs Up or Down? - Dr. Chris Berg
November 11, 2021
What’s the deal with the Enneagram? Should Christians discover their numbers? Should pastors use it to get to know their teams? Dr. Chris Berg has recently published a book on this subject and I found it to be wonderfully helpful. You can check out that conversation at these links:
YouTube - https://youtu.be/OJuXmzOjLBA
My friend, Will Adams has written a helpful article on this subject - https://www.williamhadams.com/archives/1890
Chris Berg is a professor of Apologetics and Theology at Ecclesia College. His youtube channel, Spirit of Truth Outreach provides courses on theology, Scripture, and apologetics. His new book, The New Age Trojan Horse: What Christians Should Know about Yoga and the Enneagram, can be found here.
Also, we have recently updated our archives to include all of my former interviews from the Captain’s Corner podcast, there are 50+ interviews there, with people like - Tony and Lauren Dungy, Ben Witherington III, the General of The Salvation Army, Horst Schulze, and many other.
Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:
Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at www.wpodevelopment.com
or touch base directly with Keith at Keith.Waters@wpodevelopment.com
Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.
You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com
This transcript comes from Zoom and likely contains significant errors.
Well I'm so glad you've come along for the more to the story podcast today is an interesting subject something i've wanted to delve into longer for a while now, and I have an expert on to talk about it with me, and that is Dr Chris Berg, who lives in Durham North Carolina he has recently completed a PhD in apologetics and he's able to direct that focus to aspects of the new age movement and the way they're expressing themselves in our time. So I heard Chris on Sean McDowell's podcast and I was fascinated with the way he's able to deal with the questions, who is, I think the dissertation was pretty fresh at the time, and it was just all right there on the tip of his tongue. And so I wanted to get him on here as well, so Chris welcome to the podcast.
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Christopher Berg: Hey nice to meet you Dr Miller nice to meet you.
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Andy Miller III: And I should say, Dr Berg and there we go I don't know you can feel free to call me Andy I.
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Andy Miller III: being called I mean most of the time when I was called a doctor in my when I was serving as a pastor people say Dr there is a star cast, I know I have to get used to students and other folks saying it.
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Andy Miller III: In that way, like what appropriately is, I appreciate it, but feel free to call me Andy sorry if I call you KRIS.
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Christopher Berg: Yes, absolutely.
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Andy Miller III: So I wanted to just talk about some of the things that are related to this, but now that you've published this book your dissertation and is able to see dissertation version, which was really helpful but it's called the new age.
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Andy Miller III: Trojan horse, the new age Trojan so before we get into what you think these Trojan horses might are.
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Andy Miller III: particularly related to any a gram talk about your research into new age move as a whole, now, you and I are probably you're probably a bit younger than me but as we, the new age movement predates us.
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Andy Miller III: And so.
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Andy Miller III: i'd be curious if you could help us understand a new age movement before we get into how it's expressing itself.
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Christopher Berg: Sure absolutely now the key thing to understand, as we begin to dive into the new age movement is that, like many movements, this has gone through phases.
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Christopher Berg: And what it looks like now is superficially very different than what it looked like in the 70s, and this is one of the reasons.
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Christopher Berg: Why it's been so effective at infiltrating Christianity and beginning to change our world view.
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Christopher Berg: So back in the 70s, in response to a number of different things in response to things like that happened recently, the Vietnam War in response to the peace movement in the 60s, in response to the sexual revolution.
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Christopher Berg: In response to distrust of institutions, you are seeing people and spiritual leaders and gurus from many different faiths coming together.
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Christopher Berg: blending and synchronizing the guests form of blending synchronizing.
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Christopher Berg: their beliefs into this thing called the new age movement now it's not a monolithic organization it's really a bunch of different organizations, a bunch of different people.
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Christopher Berg: That kind of have a similar world view and that worldview is framed by the following things first that we are inherently God.
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Christopher Berg: OK so it's pan theistic or pan envious depending on which version but we absolutely you man.
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Andy Miller III: Let me just.
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Andy Miller III: People might not know the distinction, you made there i'm sorry to interrupt you.
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Andy Miller III: But.
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Andy Miller III: it's really it's a good it's a helpful helpful distinction making some type of this type of thing you would receive if you went to Wesley biblical seminary different theme pan theism and Pan Am theism can you just help us know the difference there.
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Christopher Berg: Sure pan theism is more, the idea that all substance is one non ISM and all substances God.
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Christopher Berg: Pan theism is the idea that god's soul spirit.
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Christopher Berg: is somehow incarnate or inside of you, and so your spiritual nature is God, even though your material nature may not be okay.
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Andy Miller III: Perfect perfect okay so i'm sorry I interrupted you that each of these world the you're talking about the new age worldview that's one of the key attributes.
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Christopher Berg: ethan's yeah the second piece is that humanity is fundamentally good.
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Christopher Berg: The third piece is that, in order to be saved in their language your terminology, one must dive into oneself engage in ritual spiritual practices and attain enlightenment and the realization that you are God.
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Christopher Berg: And for and, finally, that if you walk through this and the whole world joins with you, we will enter a new utopian age, and so the utopian vision very strong and new age.
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Christopher Berg: Now we jump to modern day.
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Christopher Berg: All of that philosophy and theology is still there, you don't see as much of the crystals and you don't see as much of the tarot readings and things like that.
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Christopher Berg: As much anymore now you see those those worldviews applied to things like health care products, you see those worldviews applied to things like self help books.
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Andy Miller III: Right you.
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Christopher Berg: apply to mysticism right you see them apply to rituals, and things that people would engage in.
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Christopher Berg: More in a secular sense, but now they have this new age undergirding as well, for example, there's nothing wrong with taking a health supplement.
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Christopher Berg: But now, if you really investigate the companies, you find Oh, they have a massive new age worldview that reporting so we're seeing that as the transitions becoming more mainstream and it's becoming much more normalized.
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Andy Miller III: it's interesting you bring up health products, but even like regular commercial products that we use on a regular basis, I noticed that some shampoos even say things like now.
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Andy Miller III: Sorry i'm laughing for the punch like a like a self esteem, boosting.
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Andy Miller III: Right, I really hadn't shoulders can do that, but then this traces this idea, like people are looking for something to orient their lives, like they're looking for a world view direction for.
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Andy Miller III: For in this we interesting just had on i'm not sure when the when I first published Dr George gnc and he was talking about how progressive Christianity and conservative Christianity really are functioning sociologically as two different.
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Andy Miller III: religions, and so what he was suggesting is that the reason is, is that you have different worldviews so that that's what you're saying here, too, is that we have a different entirely different world view from the in the new age movement.
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Christopher Berg: that's exactly right unfortunately what's happening and we'll probably get into some questions later, but Christians are essentially collecting practices.
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Christopher Berg: That are new they're fundamentally new age in their thinking philosophy that are given a Christian veneer and they're collecting them into their lives and that begins corrupting their belief systems.
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Andy Miller III: Okay, now that expresses itself you suggest in your thesis is that this is expressed in the movement of the instagram and you'd even probably say the world view.
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Andy Miller III: Graham and I don't I know some of you already are pushing back saying oh Andy you need to just back off here, and this is just it well we'll get to some of.
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Andy Miller III: like this is something it helps me and we'll get to those questions in a second, but I want Dr Berg to help us see first the the connection and then we'll all try to throw some questions at some of you have given me.
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Andy Miller III: So what's the connection then like where is what is the unigram i'll tell you my experience with it is all of a sudden everybody or not everybody Many people in my world started saying.
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Andy Miller III: defending themselves saying i'm a four i'm a three i'm going to I, and I immediately, am a person who does I don't always get on the cutting edge of things and just it.
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Andy Miller III: Nobody will be surprised if anybody knows me with that, but I was resistant to it, and then I was cautious but i'm just curious what so somebody doesn't know are talking about what is it any Graham anyways.
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Christopher Berg: Sure, and it actually any we can even dialogue, a little bit on this and have a little bit of fun with this one, because I like doing this.
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Christopher Berg: Okay i'm going to give you the definition.
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Christopher Berg: Okay Now this is.
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Christopher Berg: Christopher here it's his book he's one of the top Christianity, Graham.
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Christopher Berg: Authors out there at this point it's him Richard rohr and cried and stable are probably the top ones and the records are pretty high up there too.
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Christopher Berg: In terms of influence, but they're less on the theology of it, whereas here it's just going to go through the theology and i'm just gonna read this quote, and I want you to you tell me if you're if you're apologetics ears perk up how's that sound.
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Andy Miller III: Okay i'm listening.
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Christopher Berg: often misunderstood as simply a personality tool to describe quirks and traits of people's individuality, the any gram goes much further than mere caricatures.
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Christopher Berg: The contemporary any gram of personality illustrates the nine ways we get lost, but also the nine ways we can come home to our true self.
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Christopher Berg: Put another way, it exposes the nine ways we lie to ourselves about who we think we are nine ways we can come clean about those illusions and nine ways we can find our way back to God.
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Christopher Berg: wow all right that's the definition right there from here, it says book now, what are your thoughts as you hear that.
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Andy Miller III: As I mean my immediate thought is like the way you trace the nature of worldview, it has it all in there there's not one mention of God it's like we we.
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Andy Miller III: We knowledge our problems, our flaws we are brought back what is that brings us back these nine ways to bring us back and then ultimately leads us to a utopian better world so.
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Andy Miller III: It doesn't really sound like.
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Andy Miller III: there's nothing about the atoning work of Jesus in there is coming again the resurrection of the dead, none of that.
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Christopher Berg: Not only none of that this replaces it and i'll go ahead and walk you through it, I could walk you please.
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Andy Miller III: Do please do.
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Christopher Berg: yeah it does so first notice that it says we're coming home to our true self.
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Christopher Berg: The true self is defined by Richard rohr who's the primary influence of spirits is the deepest part of you is God he denies classical theism and I think the N gram essentially firms this belief.
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Christopher Berg: The Nice classical theism affirms pan end theism that God is incarnate incarnate same as Jesus incarnate in all people.
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Christopher Berg: wow okay that's the real problem is that sin, and they all essentially agree this it's not sin it's the it's the false self, which is the reality that you don't understand that your God.
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Christopher Berg: Now, what does that sound like new age just what I said earlier, so you don't know your true self you don't know that you're at the deepest part of you as God.
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Christopher Berg: And you have to get your way back, not the atonement not Jesus Christ dying for your sins not not not having the blood cover you not resurrection know you have to make yourself.
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Christopher Berg: Get back to God, which is the deepest part of you how you do this the any of the any Graham is not a personality test is a plan of salvation from the very start and through the whole thing.
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Christopher Berg: And even if i'm going to answer this now, but we'll get more into it later, even if you strip away all of that stuff and just do the thing itself.
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Christopher Berg: you're still engaging in a payment plan of sanctification that is explicitly denied by scripture, it is a plan of sanctification that has behavioral modification and it is an attempt to change oneself rather than be molded by the word of God and transformed by the spirit.
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Andy Miller III: Now, essentially you're not suggesting I don't think and i'm glad if I, if I have you.
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Andy Miller III: you're not saying that anybody.
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Andy Miller III: who participates in this is participating alternate sanctification.
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Christopher Berg: No, but but that's the point of it.
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Andy Miller III: Okay.
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Christopher Berg: So, for example, for example, when we can maybe i'll use my yoga example.
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Christopher Berg: Okay, someone can do mentally cognitively if you will yoga and not be thinking about all the Hindu mystic realities within it, but yoga is designed.
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Christopher Berg: yoga is designed as a precursor to transcendental meditation right when you do the breathing and you do the exercise in the way they prescribe you do them.
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Christopher Berg: that's one of the main ways they have discovered to separate the soul from the body for out of body experiences.
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Christopher Berg: So the issue is is you might be doing the any Graham right, you might not be thinking about the sanctification things but you're essentially building right you're trying to build.
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Christopher Berg: an alternate syndication model, you might not be cognitively thinking you're doing that, but that's what it is it's kind of like if you.
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Christopher Berg: You know walk upstairs you know, so you know you might be thinking oh as i'm walking upstairs on sending to the second level of my home meant to be cognitively aware of that, but it's what you're doing.
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Andy Miller III: Right right.
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Christopher Berg: So.
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Andy Miller III: Does that make sense, so yeah absolutely.
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Andy Miller III: it's also you're identifying to the source, the source is suggesting that there is something else involved like okay that might not be the pragmatic application.
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Andy Miller III: Here, like in somebody's life, who just took a test and says oh i'm kind of like that they're not already there, but the sources there.
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Andy Miller III: Yes.
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Andy Miller III: This is one of the things that you address, and I think it's helpful to that some people would say well isn't this what's in the in the study of logic, called the genetic fallacy.
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Andy Miller III: Alright, so like the idea would be that and why it's fallacious is that if you say Okay, the ground, the source is wrong.
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Andy Miller III: The sources wrong and there's a problem that source, therefore, the The conclusion is wrong and I may say that as accurately as I could my logic teacher will be disappointed with me but i'm you'd like but but is this the genetic fallacy.
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Christopher Berg: so to speak, we argue that's not the genetic fallacy, the first way is this.
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Christopher Berg: So, for example, we know and understand marcia mcnair did a great job on this that Claudio neuron whoa utilize the teachings of ask rick Casa and with the help of automatic writing.
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Christopher Berg: came up with this personality system called the N gram so understanding that this did indeed come from automatic writing.
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Christopher Berg: Christian understanding of automatic writings that's a cult and demonic can they just be standard Christian understanding of a cult ISM and narcissism and prognostication things like that.
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Christopher Berg: Right so given that we now have to ask two questions is the devil literally or demons it, you know if this really is truly automatic writing etc.
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Christopher Berg: Are they going to tell us things that are true about God and things are going to grow closer to God or are they going to tell us things that are going to cause us to go away from God, which would be the automatic not just assumption that the essential where you'd have to go with that.
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Andy Miller III: Yet it away from guide.
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Christopher Berg: away from God so it's, not just because it came from automatic writing about things it's because we would naturally expect anything coming from that source to tell us false things.
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Christopher Berg: So it's not just saying Oh, because it's there it's bad it's no because it's talking about spiritual things right.
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Christopher Berg: Right, we would expect anything coming from that source to lie about those spiritual things with the intention of leading us away from God being deceptive syncretism or whatever else.
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Christopher Berg: But there's a second way you can go about so that's one way second way is look at the theology.
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Christopher Berg: My book demonstrates that theologically this disagrees with Christian view of God Christian view of mankind Christian view of salvation Christian view of sanctification Christian view of the end.
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Christopher Berg: it disagrees with Christian theology on every single level, so I don't even need to go to that to prove the any grams of problem Christian Christianity grab it disagrees with Christianity orthodox Orthodox Christian i'm talking about, like all branches, you know yeah.
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Christopher Berg: we're talking about like you know, not even.
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Christopher Berg: Even I even put in the in the book thesis from Eastern Orthodox i'm like that's still not this this is this is even further, you know someone who stands to says.
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Christopher Berg: It doesn't matter any Christian, this is disagreeing with your theology at its core, and so I don't even need to go back because honestly, a lot of people don't really care about the where it came from issue.
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Christopher Berg: So I just said, well every single theological thing that even teachers teach on this.
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Christopher Berg: Is not just wrong but it's a Christian heresy against standard orthodoxy.
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Andy Miller III: wow okay that's pretty bold claim now, one thing I jumped over I started.
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Andy Miller III: i've already had another side of this where i'm.
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Andy Miller III: interested in kind of.
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Andy Miller III: Getting your challenges that people are presented, but could you just give us a little summary of what the any a gram is.
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Christopher Berg: Sure absolutely so what the N gram is first and foremost it's a philosophy about how we view ourselves God and.
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Christopher Berg: who we are, so this is going to miss one of the reasons why people engage with it, it tells you who you are it tells you how you can relate to God.
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Christopher Berg: It tells you how you can have better relationships it tells you how you can get jobs, I mean it's trying to answer every major question people have I mean, my goodness, no wonder why it's seductive.
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Christopher Berg: I mean this thing's basically a one stop shop for life.
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Christopher Berg: wow and essentially what it is, and when you when you get into it, instead of having a little bit of completely when you get into it and engage with it.
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Christopher Berg: What you find is that you're going to essentially take a test, like the resale Hudson any ground type indicator and it's going to give you, your number, and this is actually a bad thing, your numbers, not a good thing it's your fault self.
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Christopher Berg: Okay yeah so that's another interesting pieces, most of them oh my number i'm so excited, no, no, they all say no, no that's not a good thing that's like the stuff you're going to have to deal with now going forward.
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Christopher Berg: So you then have to go it says the ngrams then going to break down the quote mystical image of the human being, into the empirical ego, which is the sum of your attitudes and behaviors.
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Christopher Berg: So your n gram number fundamentally is attitudes that you have and behaviors, in other words, it can change.
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Christopher Berg: Its attitudes and behaviors that can change theoretically.
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Christopher Berg: Then the second stage is finding a way to freedom or Christian freedom, and this is by moving through the EMEA Graham numbers doing inner work, so its inner meditation self reflection.
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Christopher Berg: By reading any grand books by attempting to follow any Graham advice you're going to integrate the better parts of the other numbers, together with the hope that you essentially transcend your number encompass the good and all of the nine numbers and then discover your true self.
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Christopher Berg: gotcha and that's essentially what it is, in a nutshell.
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Andy Miller III: And so, when people get there, they get their number, and then they get a description of things that are problematic about their number.
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Andy Miller III: And then.
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Andy Miller III: That that's it is it in some ways, people would just call it a tool well how is this different than Chris from the you know myers briggs or the disc inventory.
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Andy Miller III: or your other.
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Andy Miller III: other type of description that you would take to analyze your own traits.
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Christopher Berg: myers briggs is in telling you your God.
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Christopher Berg: Oh Mike briggs also isn't it, this is how you could say myers briggs is in setting itself up is this is how you find your way back to God.
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Christopher Berg: quite literally, this is a religion and the other ones are not i'm still not a super fan of the person is I think there's actually the cult of personality is a really good book on that.
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Christopher Berg: And there's a couple others as well that kind of talk about the hidden dangers of the percentages.
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Christopher Berg: But they're nothing compared to the nitty gritty any grams of religion, this tells you all of the major world deep questions, it gives you answers to every single one myers briggs the others do not do that okay.
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Andy Miller III: Interesting now this about one of the things that was happening as a leader, and when I was on the aerie Commander for the Salvation Army in Tampa.
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Andy Miller III: we're always looking for things to work with our staff particular lead staff to help us figure out how we can.
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Andy Miller III: know each other better, or we can know our own tendencies so we've done things like the desk or variety of other personality pieces in.
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Andy Miller III: The any Graham was getting popular and I heard people using it, people are respected and evangelical Christianity.
00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:59.520
Andy Miller III: Leadership like experts were using it, and people were preaching on it, and they would like to say okay i'm a three i'm going to whatever, and so I thought man if.
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:08.400
Andy Miller III: If they're doing that and they're great leaders, maybe I need to think about it so here, I had a person who's a donor in the Community, where I served and somebody who was.
00:24:09.780 --> 00:24:24.060
Andy Miller III: a psychologist and it was a part of his company was he developed psychological assessments and he was willing to donate personality profile inventories to us, and he helped us, so I said hey do you have anything on the instagram now this person is agnostic at best religiously.
00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:26.670
Andy Miller III: Sure, somebody actually he knows if he listens.
00:24:27.420 --> 00:24:35.970
Andy Miller III: He knows that i've witnessed to him and I love for him to come to Christ right that's just like very clear in our relationship nevertheless he's like do not trust this.
00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:38.820
Christopher Berg: Really oh man.
00:24:39.030 --> 00:24:53.070
Andy Miller III: This is marketing, he said, this is like a he called it kind of like he Well he just lean back on the fact empirically for him big tools that use the big five personality traits are going to get you better information about.
00:24:53.070 --> 00:24:53.520
Andy Miller III: Oh yeah.
00:24:54.030 --> 00:24:55.830
Andy Miller III: yeah talk a little respond to that.
00:24:56.250 --> 00:25:03.510
Christopher Berg: So there is no scientific backing for the N gram and virtually anyone speaking on the ground admits this and i've seen this admitted in multiple different interviews.
00:25:04.110 --> 00:25:13.530
Christopher Berg: pretty much everywhere, they none of them, claiming that they claim that it's from the desert fathers they claim that it's ancient wisdom, however, you know again marsh marsh integrated a great job demonstrate know this is.
00:25:13.770 --> 00:25:16.890
Andy Miller III: What to say when you say marcia mcnair I think I know what you're talking about.
00:25:17.010 --> 00:25:18.390
Andy Miller III: But once you tell people about her.
00:25:18.630 --> 00:25:27.600
Christopher Berg: he's a former new ager who's now a Christian excellent lady I love her very much and she wrote an excellent book on Richard rohr in the N gram and she's done a lot of videos a lot of.
00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:37.320
Christopher Berg: interviews and things like that about it as well, but I mean again she's right from the new age and she started this thing for a mile off and so that's definitively new age.
00:25:37.530 --> 00:25:39.330
Christopher Berg: You know, or at least you know secret district.
00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:44.160
Christopher Berg: And so she's another author in this area as well, and she's really good she's a lot of fun yeah.
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:49.740
Andy Miller III: So a lot of people like bull point to the fact that they're this doesn't really have an empirical basis.
00:25:49.860 --> 00:25:55.050
Andy Miller III: And so you just show that there is this really beyond just a worldview principles, does it.
00:25:55.110 --> 00:26:01.110
Andy Miller III: flow there's actually come from the new age movement like are what are the parallels.
00:26:01.320 --> 00:26:16.860
Christopher Berg: So so so no, and this is really important, as well, and not directly again these guys were involved in a cult they were involved in a lot of what I will call new agey type things they definitely had a philosophy that was very similar to the new age.
00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:17.370
Christopher Berg: Okay.
00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:28.410
Christopher Berg: So the way that I talked about syncretism origins don't matter in syncretism What matters is, can you make a connection between the theology of one thing and the theology of another and have a blended them.
00:26:28.830 --> 00:26:38.160
Christopher Berg: that's what we're seeing here we're seeing that a condo in Toronto and allow these any Graham guys hold to the basic tenants of the new age movement, even though they may not identify as such.
00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:48.900
Christopher Berg: So they still have that philosophy, so it helps to talk about in terms of new age, because the philosophies identical your God, you can make your way out your own way to God, this is going to bring you to a better place utopia of some kind.
00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:57.270
Christopher Berg: Pan and theism or Pam theism it's all there so, even though some of these guys don't have a new age background, like a central new age background.
00:26:57.690 --> 00:27:06.420
Christopher Berg: The real the philosophy, the worldview, the religion is very similar, and so I thought it was very apt to make that connection, because it's also why.
00:27:06.780 --> 00:27:18.360
Christopher Berg: People in within Christianity, except and that's Another thing I go into the book is how this in these incursions happen, one of the Ryan, I would well, we could talk about that later, but the two main ones are denial of sufficiency of scripture.
00:27:19.800 --> 00:27:21.900
Christopher Berg: And then, also an acceptance of pragmatism.
00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:32.910
Andy Miller III: Okay acceptance of practices let's just jump on that because that seems to be what people like it gets a popular thing like some leadership author, who I appreciate a pastor will say.
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:45.690
Andy Miller III: And people know who i'm talking about trying to say his name here, I will do anything short of sin to bring somebody to Jesus right, and I can resonate with that that sounds similar to a founder of the Salvation Army, who had take.
00:27:46.650 --> 00:28:00.810
Andy Miller III: What he called the devil's tunes and sanctify them and Washington, the blood of the lamb, so what what is it about this that ends up leading us to that place where it pragmatism is exalted.
00:28:01.770 --> 00:28:08.790
Christopher Berg: yeah so I want to go ahead and use an Old Testament reference to this also do new testing references to, but I think there's some really good ones in the ot.
00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:19.110
Christopher Berg: Know initially, and I know that you know just want to say now your worship in spirit and truth, I should make that connection second but initially back when the Israelites were in the wilderness.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:31.170
Christopher Berg: mount Sinai actually prevents mount Sinai and God said hey here I am here's how you worship me and what was the first thing they did well they went and built a golden calf now here's the question, who is the golden calf a representation of.
00:28:32.340 --> 00:28:32.940
Christopher Berg: Was yali.
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:39.900
Christopher Berg: yeah wasn't different God it was yelling, the problem was is God said, this is not how your to worship me.
00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:47.910
Christopher Berg: It wasn't prescribed by scripture people tried to authorize pulverize fire try to give an author aspire were consumed.
00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:57.090
Christopher Berg: You go to the New Testament that Jesus has ever done it, you know you won't be worshipping a temple but you'll be worshipping the father in spirit and truth.
00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:07.890
Christopher Berg: Not just in spirit, but in truth, in other words there's still boundaries to how we worship God, we cannot simply worship God Willy nilly, however, we want.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:17.670
Christopher Berg: We can't simply balk at god's plan of salvation and just say well salvation is whatever you want sanctification is whatever what spiritual growth, whatever we want.
00:29:18.270 --> 00:29:23.910
Christopher Berg: Those things are an authorized, and so the thing to keep in mind with this, and this is, this is what I would argue.
00:29:24.330 --> 00:29:30.810
Christopher Berg: Is Is it the Bible is the supreme authority and sufficient or is that the Bible plus and this gets us into pragmatism.
00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:41.040
Christopher Berg: Where it's essentially taught at seminaries and from some major speakers that it's not just the Bible it's Bible, plus the Bible simply does not contain everything I need for godly living in our modern day.
00:29:41.370 --> 00:29:54.030
Christopher Berg: We need other things, and we can even go to demonic forces for other things we can go to things that are agnostic and non Christian for these things now case in point i'll say this i'm not talking about.
00:29:55.110 --> 00:29:56.580
Christopher Berg: going for math help.
00:29:57.510 --> 00:30:11.250
Christopher Berg: or even some basics of psychology in terms of brain chemical dysfunction you know I talked about that i'm talking about going to secular sources or even demonic for sources for spiritual things spiritual things.
00:30:11.280 --> 00:30:17.790
Christopher Berg: Right that's the problem going there for spiritual things because that essentially says the Bible just was not enough.
00:30:18.300 --> 00:30:27.030
Christopher Berg: wow yeah yeah, and that is the problem that we have is people have basically said, you know it used to be the liberal conservative split was over authority of scripture right.
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:34.920
Christopher Berg: Is the Bible god's word is it man's word about God, you know here's what it is now people can accept the authority of scripture but they deny that's all you need.
00:30:35.340 --> 00:30:43.650
Christopher Berg: wow that's the new split they simply denied science Bible plus and with the N gram the problem isn't it it's it's impossible to make a case for it.
00:30:43.860 --> 00:30:52.170
Christopher Berg: Even if you strip it all the way down because even stripped down what you're essentially doing is a type of sanctification that's what essentially you're doing even if you just take the advice.
00:30:52.410 --> 00:31:00.120
Christopher Berg: you're trying to modify your behavior through through psychological means trying to modify your behavior and you're trying to essentially create a new you.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:02.370
Andy Miller III: And that is it only works.
00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:07.980
Christopher Berg: For your own works at the core of it that's what it is so even if you're just engaged now i'm not saying, people are cognizant.
00:31:08.040 --> 00:31:12.390
Christopher Berg: That that's what they're doing right but that's what you're doing when you engage the N gram even the basic level.
00:31:13.350 --> 00:31:16.020
Andy Miller III: yeah if you're saying this is.
00:31:16.050 --> 00:31:19.140
Andy Miller III: This might be what folks are entering into rather that they know it or not.
00:31:19.170 --> 00:31:25.500
Andy Miller III: This is like our lead into it and maybe majorly it doesn't lead you there no critique me if I by saying this, if this see a problem with this even.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:39.030
Andy Miller III: Maybe you're not concerned and it doesn't lead you away from orthodox Christianity still affirm the apostles creed justification by faith, you still like you go go through it, but.
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:40.080
Andy Miller III: I wonder.
00:31:40.410 --> 00:31:41.070
Andy Miller III: Could this.
00:31:41.790 --> 00:31:45.300
Andy Miller III: If it doesn't lead you there, but your support.
00:31:45.510 --> 00:31:47.160
Andy Miller III: in praise of the anagram.
00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:49.140
Andy Miller III: It might lead somebody else to their.
00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:56.910
Christopher Berg: This is what I tell people pastor asked me well, can we use it at my church, I say, well, can you guarantee that no one else at your Church is going to get sucked into Richard rohr wow.
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:03.300
Christopher Berg: And that that's the end the conversation, because the answer that is obviously no but even beyond that, though.
00:32:05.100 --> 00:32:13.500
Christopher Berg: You know, knowing what it is, I mean you know actually researching right my kind of be research it like read their books yourself read the definition yourself, you know.
00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:16.650
Christopher Berg: me whether you use in the answer always comes back no.
00:32:16.950 --> 00:32:19.320
Christopher Berg: The question is always what can we strip away everything.
00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:21.480
Christopher Berg: Right right right yeah I.
00:32:21.510 --> 00:32:29.490
Andy Miller III: would say okay there's some good here and that's one of the questions that we had from a friend of mine, whose last name was Montenegro interest not this not related here what am I good.
00:32:29.490 --> 00:32:31.710
Christopher Berg: yeah be shocked if she said that you.
00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:41.910
Andy Miller III: can't we just strip away the good like isn't aren't there good things that maybe has come to like other religions have found things through general revelation.
00:32:42.210 --> 00:32:48.990
Christopher Berg: yeah So the answer to that is Do you remember at, because how well, I want to show in the.
00:32:49.020 --> 00:32:51.150
Andy Miller III: 41 years old i'm still debating.
00:32:51.210 --> 00:32:53.730
Christopher Berg: we're close we're close You might remember the 80s, then.
00:32:54.090 --> 00:32:54.780
Andy Miller III: I do, I do.
00:32:54.810 --> 00:33:00.030
Christopher Berg: What was the 80s can remember as kidnappers do remember the warning they told all of us.
00:33:00.060 --> 00:33:04.290
Andy Miller III: For about, as I was scared to death, I was gonna be kidnapped I don't know exactly what.
00:33:05.550 --> 00:33:06.360
Andy Miller III: you're alluding to, though.
00:33:06.510 --> 00:33:08.670
Christopher Berg: If a stranger is going to give you candy right.
00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:11.580
Christopher Berg: Out of the car and then tries to pull you in the car right.
00:33:11.820 --> 00:33:15.270
Christopher Berg: right here here's the issue with the underground the any grams absolutely candy.
00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:24.990
Christopher Berg: All sin now i'm not calling it, you know I want to be careful, I said he said in general is always going to taste good for the most part, you know.
00:33:25.560 --> 00:33:34.260
Christopher Berg: That that's why people do it right so even in that case the ground, the ground is gonna taste good I don't didn't deny that it has benefited I wouldn't even deny that.
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:40.770
Christopher Berg: But it's a nice kidnapper take the candy you like it, where do you keep going you go.
00:33:40.800 --> 00:33:41.310
Andy Miller III: After.
00:33:41.580 --> 00:33:48.270
Christopher Berg: You go back for more you go back for more and finally you're in the car you don't even realize it and you're heading away from the Lord.
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:50.550
Andy Miller III: wow.
00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:54.780
Andy Miller III: yeah I mean this is what happens when we find another source for our faith.
00:33:55.500 --> 00:34:05.670
Andy Miller III: The source for ordering like how, in that, and I think that's the challenge to that when we deal with other things that can be classified as a worldview.
00:34:05.730 --> 00:34:06.630
Andy Miller III: And our time.
00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:11.520
Andy Miller III: Yes, is that it ends it, what is the source for reality.
00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:28.110
Christopher Berg: that's right well and with the N gram the like, I sent the promise to worldview myers briggs it's not a worldview you didn't say this is, this is a religion it answers every question and says come to me, for your spiritual knowledge.
00:34:29.130 --> 00:34:29.370
Christopher Berg: yeah.
00:34:29.430 --> 00:34:38.850
Andy Miller III: One of the things that what people say now here's an interesting thing i'll go ahead and admit that I, I went to the same undergraduate institution, as Chris Hubert and.
00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:46.110
Andy Miller III: He was interested like in it is not, and I don't we're not necessarily they're not claiming him right in the same way.
00:34:46.620 --> 00:34:53.850
Andy Miller III: he's involved here at this point, but you know, he was a well known speaker before he got into any grand peace and i'll say at my school, I was a music.
00:34:53.850 --> 00:34:59.070
Andy Miller III: Major composition major one of the things that was emphasized, often in Christian higher education.
00:35:00.180 --> 00:35:10.020
Andy Miller III: Liberal arts institution is how everything is god's everything comes from hand side can redeem everything, so I could perform a classical piece of music from the romantic period.
00:35:10.350 --> 00:35:18.300
Andy Miller III: That was talking about foreign deities and I could find the good in that right there are or that's like sexually explicit.
00:35:18.660 --> 00:35:23.010
Andy Miller III: And people might not know it, because you're singing in another language, not that I was a vocalist but the same thing.
00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:29.550
Andy Miller III: Like we recognize music comes from God it's something can be redeemed this is art reflects God so like this is kind of the the big tent.
00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:36.870
Andy Miller III: perspective, like everything is God God can redeem everything let's take it and champion it what's your response to that, I mean people might say that about the ground.
00:35:37.140 --> 00:35:38.640
Christopher Berg: sure can God redeemed witchcraft.
00:35:39.600 --> 00:35:40.380
00:35:42.750 --> 00:35:43.590
Christopher Berg: i'm throwing that to you.
00:35:43.620 --> 00:35:44.490
Andy Miller III: And yeah it's good.
00:35:44.520 --> 00:35:49.230
Christopher Berg: that's good it has he redeemed witchcraft right his God redeemed divination.
00:35:50.190 --> 00:35:51.960
Christopher Berg: wow has God redeemed sin.
00:35:53.610 --> 00:36:00.360
Christopher Berg: yeah so, the reality is is that kind of thinking fails right that kind of I wasn't challenging you but.
00:36:00.390 --> 00:36:01.980
Christopher Berg: I was just I like I like it, I like it.
00:36:02.070 --> 00:36:03.210
Christopher Berg: A nice kind of way to throw it out right.
00:36:03.270 --> 00:36:08.820
Andy Miller III: I mean, there is a sense God redeems sin like he and he could take our past and still use it like.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:19.020
Christopher Berg: Our path i'm talking about sinful act can garden make it so that is morally right to blaspheme his own name.
00:36:19.230 --> 00:36:19.740
Andy Miller III: There you go.
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:21.630
Christopher Berg: I thought this will get real, specific.
00:36:22.200 --> 00:36:22.620
Andy Miller III: that's good.
00:36:22.650 --> 00:36:42.570
Christopher Berg: yeah God, make it morally right that you can go to demons for spiritual well being can God, make it right that you can perform spells in his name for his glory to manipulate the natural world, oh no he won't and no he can't and so that's the.
00:36:43.170 --> 00:36:43.920
Andy Miller III: Point Chris.
00:36:44.310 --> 00:36:46.620
Christopher Berg: Thank you, thank you yeah that's the issue of the big 10 perspective is.
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:53.970
Christopher Berg: The I mean the answer is just no it's just a problem is is people are looking for whatever way they can to incorporate these things now get even scriptural on this.
00:36:54.390 --> 00:37:02.460
Christopher Berg: there's one New Testament verse that typically is used to defend this view and it's cautions 119 through 20 which says the following.
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:13.380
Christopher Berg: For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth, or in heaven and through him to record to answer.
00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:19.650
Christopher Berg: Everything i'm making peace by the blood of the cross now some people going to interpret this verse and say, well, this is god's.
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.600
Christopher Berg: You know he's he's redeeming all things reconciling all things this is their justification for bringing everything in.
00:37:25.170 --> 00:37:29.820
Christopher Berg: But we just demonstrated he's not bringing in witchcraft these issues, not bringing incentive to the picture.
00:37:30.540 --> 00:37:38.040
Christopher Berg: So, clearly, we must have a misunderstanding reconcile to dive into the verse housing making peace by the blood of the cross.
00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:46.920
Christopher Berg: what's the word of the cross do covers over since so, in other words he's defeating sin and that's how he's reconciling.
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:58.470
Christopher Berg: All things but here's another issue with this verse reconcile in this case paul's use the word it's not making all things acceptable to Christ he's using it to present the work of Christ as necessary to overcome alienation.
00:37:59.250 --> 00:38:06.000
Christopher Berg: So all things that alienated from God are being removed, so that all things can be reconciled.
00:38:06.090 --> 00:38:07.470
Andy Miller III: Right they're not being brought back.
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:15.450
Christopher Berg: that's right, so, in other words, in terms of reconciliation and the main view of this, as people, one could argue creation as well, in terms of creation subjects groaning I wouldn't.
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:25.620
Christopher Berg: disagree with that, but we're talking about the triumph and pacification of all things are evil and sinful so that this alienation can be overcome, so that we can be reconciled that have blown across.
00:38:25.770 --> 00:38:30.930
Christopher Berg: This is not about trying to pull in every evil thing and make it acceptable to God wow.
00:38:31.290 --> 00:38:34.650
Andy Miller III: This is really challenging it should give have us.
00:38:35.670 --> 00:38:51.210
Andy Miller III: put our antenna up for a variety of things that enter into our lives that attempt to explain, who we are and where we're going what are what are some other things they just quickly like that are similar to like the any a gram.
00:38:53.430 --> 00:38:55.890
Christopher Berg: You mean other things, oh you mean the secret secret isms.
00:38:56.100 --> 00:38:57.120
Andy Miller III: yeah other syncretism.
00:38:57.510 --> 00:39:03.030
Andy Miller III: shrinks, and I mean, I have some thoughts by be curious what you even just things are part of our popular culture.
00:39:03.270 --> 00:39:06.330
Christopher Berg: Sure, well, I mean the other one in the book that I did was yo.
00:39:06.330 --> 00:39:14.220
Christopher Berg: Right, so that that's a big one, I have a lot on in there and I have to admit actually any Graham was more thoroughly secret cystic than Christian yoga was.
00:39:15.150 --> 00:39:30.540
Christopher Berg: Which is really funny so people really did try I mentioned in the book they really did try to remove the Hindu gods from some of them anywhere from the yoga, the problem is, is what yoga is and there's eight arms, and it is a missionary.
00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:41.070
Christopher Berg: it's essentially missionary arm Hinduism and beyond that is meant to separate the body and the spirit and the soul and even when you actually listened to yoga teachers and Christian yoga people.
00:39:41.490 --> 00:39:47.940
Christopher Berg: In their theology one step down from doctrine of God is thoroughly Hindu a stick in all of it.
00:39:48.330 --> 00:39:50.430
Christopher Berg: The top people breathing in the Holy Spirit.
00:39:51.120 --> 00:39:58.770
Christopher Berg: You know, as a person course they're talking about the root problem is not being sin, but as being a a disjunction between the mind body and spirit.
00:39:59.130 --> 00:40:04.470
Christopher Berg: So it's it's it's a complete and then how you get better from that how you get closer to God is by doing yoga.
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:09.990
Christopher Berg: Right so it's it's the same kind of thing it's still a change of the Gospel it's still a cell different plan.
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:22.860
Christopher Berg: Other things though Christian music and I mentioned this miniatures but I can't remember if it was in there if I removed it, but because it went through a couple of additions there but you've got Christian music that's teaching your theology that's fundamentally new age.
00:40:23.430 --> 00:40:28.170
Christopher Berg: Okay, no doubt about it you've got Christian musicians saying things like God is gravity.
00:40:29.160 --> 00:40:30.630
Andy Miller III: I mean it is what.
00:40:31.020 --> 00:40:33.660
Andy Miller III: Now, oh yeah sure yeah sure interesting.
00:40:33.900 --> 00:40:41.520
Christopher Berg: In interviews and this this document so you've got all sorts syncretism here at all levels you've got prosperity gospel.
00:40:42.330 --> 00:40:51.360
Christopher Berg: Which is actually very new age it's quimby's new thought it's the idea that whatever you want, you can manifest in your mind and bring it to yourself very similar in that category prosperity Gospel that.
00:40:51.630 --> 00:41:00.330
Christopher Berg: The Gospel essentially God blessing you with material things and all that kind of stuff so syncretism is happened all over in Christianity.
00:41:00.810 --> 00:41:09.210
Christopher Berg: And it's it's it's very difficult honestly it's difficult I even say this kind of been there actually i'll go ahead and read you this, this is the did you read the dedication, by chance, did you have.
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.530
Christopher Berg: A yeah.
00:41:10.740 --> 00:41:11.940
Andy Miller III: This dissertation version.
00:41:12.210 --> 00:41:13.890
Christopher Berg: This station very well i'll read it here to.
00:41:14.490 --> 00:41:23.820
Christopher Berg: You know this book is dedicated to all who have experienced personal loss of persecution for resisting false doctrine and refusing to engage or permit the practice of synchronicity spiritual ISM.
00:41:24.210 --> 00:41:36.720
Christopher Berg: Because it's one thing to stand for truth in the face of people disagree yeah you know non Christians but it's a whole nother thing when you're having to it for brothers and sisters in Christ it's just immeasurably heart, because the relationships of personal.
00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:38.070
Andy Miller III: right for sure.
00:41:38.100 --> 00:41:38.970
Christopher Berg: So it's tough.
00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:59.250
Andy Miller III: He I thought another thing that could this might be in this is off the top my head syncretism stick is when you deal with things like that takeover our worlds and as a pastor I was often aware and in and a sports fan, but often I would find people who are just so much more dedicated.
00:41:59.640 --> 00:42:01.050
Andy Miller III: To sports teams.
00:42:01.110 --> 00:42:03.420
Andy Miller III: Yes, and they are to the gospel.
00:42:03.720 --> 00:42:04.440
Andy Miller III: Right and.
00:42:04.950 --> 00:42:07.500
Andy Miller III: And of course that's a challenge for pat how, how do you make the.
00:42:08.640 --> 00:42:13.830
Andy Miller III: preach disciple lead in a way that's compelling to people, but as you're talking through the worldview.
00:42:13.830 --> 00:42:14.220
Christopher Berg: pieces.
00:42:14.730 --> 00:42:19.350
Andy Miller III: I was, I was reminded that there's a way that it comes across seeming.
00:42:20.520 --> 00:42:28.890
Andy Miller III: like this is if I if my team can just win the win the world series if I now not saying every sport, but there are some times, where it can be replacing.
00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:39.930
Andy Miller III: And I, and I think like TV, in general, like i'm sure there's things in my life to that can tend towards syncretism, what do you think is, that is, that is, that syncretism classically but there's synchronicity aspects to it.
00:42:40.590 --> 00:42:48.510
Christopher Berg: Well, and I think CS Lewis actually has a pretty good run on this, I like I like his his view on this, which is if something's impacting your worldview don't do it.
00:42:49.230 --> 00:42:52.410
Christopher Berg: Okay, if something's not impacting your real deal it's at least permissible.
00:42:53.220 --> 00:43:01.440
Christopher Berg: So, and that was a summary of essentially some of the statements I think there's some wisdom in that because he paul's route right paul's talking about these things he's like look if we if we start band and everything.
00:43:02.070 --> 00:43:09.030
Christopher Berg: You know and i'm summarizing paraphrase yeah but yeah we start doing everything I mean we're going to be in communes and then that's the end of it, you know.
00:43:09.630 --> 00:43:11.040
Andy Miller III: that's just that's just it right right right.
00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:14.940
Christopher Berg: But he also was very strong against false teaching.
00:43:15.390 --> 00:43:22.500
Christopher Berg: And I think anything we have to be careful because, unfortunately, media and all this stuff has gotten to a point where it's normalizing homosexuality.
00:43:22.740 --> 00:43:33.030
Christopher Berg: it's normalizing the idea that white people are evil and racist i've seen so many things recently i'm like Oh, my goodness, this is just literally framing all white people is evil racist people and that's it.
00:43:34.050 --> 00:43:40.260
Christopher Berg: there's we've we've got to be careful, these things, because they will encroach on worldview and there's certain things I just stopped watching a certain things that i've.
00:43:40.590 --> 00:43:53.610
Christopher Berg: i've stopped engaging that I used to because i'm like I saw where it was turning worldly wise and i'm like Okay, this is going to start having impact i'm just putting it away, but you know I mean CS Lewis wrote and talking about fantasy books, for example, and had wizards and things and.
00:43:53.640 --> 00:43:54.720
Andy Miller III: stuff like that, and then yeah yeah.
00:43:55.050 --> 00:44:00.480
Christopher Berg: But no one assume that that was reality that was it was a fantastical saying it was impacting a person's worldview.
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:09.750
Christopher Berg: But if you go to a young adult section in the bookstore those books involving some fantastic i'm it's absolutely are promoting a pagan neo pagan world view.
00:44:10.200 --> 00:44:20.010
Christopher Berg: And they're promoting it as, as you know, these things you should engage in and up your your fascination with them, and all that kind of stuff so again there's a bit of discernment.
00:44:20.520 --> 00:44:33.300
Christopher Berg: I try to err on the side of you know, I tried to cautious, you know I mean but i'm also not going to be a person who is just going hard on every last thing and trying to you know purging until literally there's nothing left in our rooms.
00:44:33.990 --> 00:44:43.680
Christopher Berg: You know it's at that point, in my eyes will be a monastery I mean if we're going to that level with I don't think the Bible even tells to go that far, with it either, I mean it says it's going to cause your brother to stumble don't do it.
00:44:44.310 --> 00:44:51.270
Christopher Berg: You know that's that's kind of this issue so, for example, when I was in college just give example I refuse to drink any alcohol, when I was in college even.
00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:52.740
Andy Miller III: Just one second i'm sorry.
00:44:54.930 --> 00:44:55.710
Andy Miller III: whenever you ready.
00:44:56.460 --> 00:45:03.300
Christopher Berg: So, for example in college, even though I was above age for something like drinking alcohol consuming alcohol.
00:45:03.630 --> 00:45:19.800
Christopher Berg: I refuse to do so on the grounds that it would not be a good witness to those around me because the culture was such that alcoholism was rampant so just as an example of things that aren't prohibited directly and permanently by scripture.
00:45:20.310 --> 00:45:23.880
Christopher Berg: But yeah could be a stumbling block and i'm offering that as an example.
00:45:24.090 --> 00:45:33.270
Andy Miller III: that's great angel a few weeks ago we had a podcast that came out where I looked at his salvation reminded nomination statement about not participating abstaining.
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:42.870
Andy Miller III: From the use of alcohol, tobacco, but interesting up in the exact same same it says i'll say for alcohol, tobacco, the non medicinal use of drugs.
00:45:43.200 --> 00:45:44.280
Andy Miller III: The occult.
00:45:45.060 --> 00:45:45.660
Christopher Berg: vehicle.
00:45:45.690 --> 00:45:48.930
Andy Miller III: yeah all else, that can enslave the body or spirit.
00:45:49.560 --> 00:45:53.430
Christopher Berg: Well, and guess what the anagram does, and if you go and look at testimonies.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:02.970
Christopher Berg: Okay, oh man, there are many testimonies of people who've gotten out of the N gram and realized this and they didn't even see it, it pulled me away from Jesus that's the common common.
00:46:03.540 --> 00:46:12.090
Andy Miller III: Okay, I want to talk to you about that it's it's interesting Chris like here you go do your PhD dissertation on something that is going to make you a lot of friends.
00:46:12.510 --> 00:46:13.230
Andy Miller III: Oh yeah.
00:46:13.290 --> 00:46:14.610
Christopher Berg: I i've gained.
00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:22.020
Christopher Berg: sandy other set of my speaking up i've lost about 70% my speaking engagements that I previously had I had been personally attacked over this.
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:26.280
Christopher Berg: i'd had lost friendships I mean you name it i've been slandered.
00:46:26.610 --> 00:46:32.820
Christopher Berg: going against the anagrams an issue because it's money's involved a lot of money lot of money is involved in this.
00:46:33.210 --> 00:46:41.160
Christopher Berg: And it costs thousands of dollars to become certified in any grand coach you can charge anywhere from 50 to up to $300 an hour for any grief counseling.
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:52.290
Christopher Berg: This is a big moneymaker these books self thousands, hundreds of thousands of copies, you know that this was picking a fight not to pick a fight, but because I care deeply.
00:46:52.770 --> 00:47:00.780
Christopher Berg: deeply about scripture deeply about the church deeply about people salvation and I was starting to see it, this is really leading people astray.
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:04.410
Andy Miller III: yeah I was curious what your personal experiences like with the instagram.
00:47:05.100 --> 00:47:07.740
Christopher Berg: Sure, so I mean i've never done it I have.
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:14.400
Andy Miller III: You know, I was interested in do I just haven't taken a time day I don't know if i'm a three or what but go, so what was your experience.
00:47:14.640 --> 00:47:18.630
Christopher Berg: Sure, somebody introduced it to me a couple years ago and I was like okay i'll take.
00:47:19.170 --> 00:47:22.830
Christopher Berg: One little thing, or whatever you know it's like oh that's interesting and didn't think anything of it.
00:47:23.160 --> 00:47:29.790
Christopher Berg: But then, about a year later, a friend of mine came to me and said oh yeah i'm really into the any Graham and it's Christian and it's fun and it helps me spiritually like okay well.
00:47:30.270 --> 00:47:38.970
Christopher Berg: send me the book i'll take a look at and I got Chris figure it's his book and I got into like page one or whichever pages on, and I was like Oh, this is.
00:47:39.720 --> 00:47:50.970
Christopher Berg: This is the best, and so I took the book I said, well, let me go through this with you, so I walked her through the first 80 or so pages and she literally said the end I couldn't tell that this was heresy when I read it, but you're showing me its heresy on every page.
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:51.750
Andy Miller III: hmm.
00:47:52.020 --> 00:47:59.850
Christopher Berg: interesting and I didn't think anything of it again, I thought I just helped a friend Okay, but then I saw it's in virtually every major church in the country.
00:48:01.140 --> 00:48:12.540
Christopher Berg: It is in churches that are conservative churches it's it is everywhere, in fact I think Todd Wilson said if you're under 30 now you've gotten any Graham number, this has a captivating.
00:48:13.170 --> 00:48:17.100
Christopher Berg: A younger people, it has captivated younger people millions of people are involved in this.
00:48:17.700 --> 00:48:32.520
Christopher Berg: And it is very dangerous, and as for the reasons i've said, because an actually good kind of from yoga i've got one study I mentioned the book and the dissertation is the longer one engaged with yoga, the more likely one is to identify less is Christian more as.
00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:44.580
Christopher Berg: Potentially Buddhist and less as religious and more spiritual, in other words just simply engaging yoga and the more likely one if you engaged in it for.
00:48:45.330 --> 00:48:51.630
Christopher Berg: For physical purposes so many people, and at the studies show this switch to spiritual purposes as time goes on.
00:48:52.170 --> 00:48:55.680
Christopher Berg: So in the Center of the anagram it's like the more you engage with the deeper you go.
00:48:56.070 --> 00:49:03.720
Christopher Berg: Because it demands more of your time it demands more of your attention it demands more reading you just don't have time for the Bible you don't have time for other stuff if you take the exam seriously.
00:49:04.230 --> 00:49:15.600
Christopher Berg: And so, when I saw that went worldwide I said well how many books are there from the academic perspective not really a marshmallow is very good i'm not i'm not saying anything negative about your book, but just you know PhD dissertation there weren't any.
00:49:16.230 --> 00:49:17.550
Andy Miller III: there's only positive ones actually.
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:26.160
Christopher Berg: So I said, you know I think it's time to write something on this, I think it's time to really do a theological analysis of it and determine once and for all what this thing is and that's what we did.
00:49:26.580 --> 00:49:27.030
Andy Miller III: wow.
00:49:27.150 --> 00:49:28.740
Andy Miller III: Well, thank you for taking time to do it.
00:49:29.010 --> 00:49:40.590
Andy Miller III: And you know I applaud you for sticking your neck out there in it when it's a tough market for getting academic jobs and other like your own reputation is building, but ultimately I think you're building it.
00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:47.730
Andy Miller III: On the truth, like and the conviction behind what accompanies your journey and to study deeper.
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:58.200
Andy Miller III: that's a big part of what you're done so, I applaud you for taking time to do this and you're right, it has made its way into many denominations my first interaction with it was within my own domination, there was a whole conference that was being run.
00:49:58.620 --> 00:49:58.950
Andy Miller III: and
00:49:59.220 --> 00:50:00.720
Andy Miller III: Not in any grand speaker.
00:50:01.050 --> 00:50:13.020
Andy Miller III: And I was I didn't know what I had zero idea what it was he knew that people were identifying their numbers and they were analyzing and I thought okay it's a personality thing, but then I saw they gave God a number.
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:30.240
Andy Miller III: Oh yes, where God is, I am sorry I don't know any Graham fans scholars I don't know the know what the numbers mean but God was given a part in hearing what you're saying if they're supposed to be negative, and this is problematic, have you seen that or what do you think of that.
00:50:30.240 --> 00:50:38.970
Christopher Berg: So I, the one that i've seen the most is that Jesus and companies are embodies all nine of the numbers and he is the true image of God and so he embodies all nine.
00:50:39.450 --> 00:50:48.540
Christopher Berg: Okay, and that's kind of our goal is to become like Christ, so we need to embody all nine numbers as well and that's when we achieve the knowledge that we are a true self and that God is incarnate within us.
00:50:48.990 --> 00:50:59.250
Christopher Berg: So yeah no that's part of it, too, I mean and there's no end of using scripture and saying hey see david's a three or you know Moses, a five or you know, whatever I mean.
00:50:59.610 --> 00:51:05.880
Christopher Berg: They love doing that kind of stuff and and the thing is it's it's very similar to astrology in these ways as well and that's another big kind of thing when you.
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:11.880
Christopher Berg: Do a side by side comparison, even to the extent i'll give you this that they believe there's an n gram energy.
00:51:12.330 --> 00:51:27.600
Christopher Berg: That is eternal that operates on humanity dictating what they will do and how they will act, and that is straight from astrological signs that there is an astrological energy that acts upon you to determine help determine your actions, I doubt yeah.
00:51:27.810 --> 00:51:30.750
Andy Miller III: You show to that there's a connection to the horoscope.
00:51:31.350 --> 00:51:33.690
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah talking about that.
00:51:33.930 --> 00:51:39.810
Christopher Berg: yeah so birth charts so essentially when you when you look at this stuff and i'll go ahead if if you don't mind i'm going to go ahead and just read.
00:51:40.020 --> 00:51:40.200
00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:51.750
Christopher Berg: numerology here so see if you can tell me which ones, the diagram which ones horoscope will save you, but sometimes people can because they're familiar with the language, but that will see.
00:51:52.740 --> 00:52:05.160
Christopher Berg: So this is one of them, they still love to set goals rise to challenges and solve problems they feel valuable which unleashes a tender benevolence that is focused on the common good that's one.
00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:14.730
Christopher Berg: Okay, these people emphasize the thinking aspects of life, their service to community is primarily expressed through thinking planning analyzing and memorizing.
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:20.970
Christopher Berg: A second one's probably any Graham but the only reason is because the word unleashed in the first.
00:52:21.450 --> 00:52:23.460
Christopher Berg: guess what the first ones in your grammar.
00:52:23.640 --> 00:52:24.750
Andy Miller III: The psycho interesting.
00:52:24.750 --> 00:52:26.370
Christopher Berg: Oh, you can't tell.
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:32.070
Christopher Berg: wow it's the same thing, I mean it's almost like they lifted it straight from from the horoscope yeah.
00:52:32.730 --> 00:52:33.090
00:52:34.680 --> 00:52:35.340
Christopher Berg: I love yours.
00:52:37.110 --> 00:52:38.490
Andy Miller III: yeah you got me oh.
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:42.180
Christopher Berg: No, you can't apple That was the thing.
00:52:42.180 --> 00:52:43.500
Andy Miller III: I did you hear my confidence.
00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:50.850
Christopher Berg: I know it was great, but no, but you can't tell that that's kind of the whole point is that you know you got to take a look at some point you gotta just.
00:52:51.150 --> 00:52:58.350
Christopher Berg: Take a shot because it's the same thing and that's, the issue is really the advice sitting and marcia my tiger, again, I know I mentioned our lap and she's done a lot of good work in this area.
00:52:59.070 --> 00:53:06.000
Christopher Berg: The thing about it is and she'll say this is that she can read your birth chart when she was new age and you'd think it was you, you think she knew you to a TEE.
00:53:06.420 --> 00:53:16.200
Christopher Berg: wow and the purpose, the problem is that stuff works it actually does work, because the way they've developed the way they've said it does work it makes you feel like it's you otherwise people wouldn't engage with it.
00:53:16.560 --> 00:53:22.230
Christopher Berg: yeah any Graham has to work on some level it's kind of make it feel like it's you or no one would buy into it.
00:53:22.890 --> 00:53:31.230
Christopher Berg: Right hey, this is the problem with pragmatism, it just because it feels good doesn't mean it's not killing you wow.
00:53:31.710 --> 00:53:43.170
Andy Miller III: we'd be so cautious with these type of things now, you might essentially since to the other piece that you talk about the other worldview is yoga and you might have heard i'm a i'm a fan of justin barley it's unbelievable.
00:53:43.230 --> 00:53:44.400
Andy Miller III: Radio show yeah.
00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:58.950
Andy Miller III: just had on two people that I think he thought every now and this happened, so you know he's been doing this for over 10 years and yeah maybe 15 and every now and this happens very get somebody on the debate and really they just start there on the same side.
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:00.120
Christopher Berg: Side yeah.
00:54:00.690 --> 00:54:03.420
Andy Miller III: Go to yoga debate, I was like oh I can't wait to hear this.
00:54:03.630 --> 00:54:11.700
Andy Miller III: And it basically they're both like stay away like if you can stay away from this and then the one guy was there was one person who was.
00:54:12.060 --> 00:54:18.270
Andy Miller III: At first, he thought was gonna be more pro Christian yoga he was just like well, maybe some body movements here but.
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:27.150
Andy Miller III: You know, you might be able to use those he said, but I don't even hardly recommend that I mean he was just very cautious and and, most of it was it was this isn't a critique and your.
00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:35.850
Andy Miller III: family members of mine who have any Graham numbers and our family members who do yoga Christian yoga so I love you all.
00:54:36.330 --> 00:54:38.850
Andy Miller III: And i'm not good, but what happens is.
00:54:39.210 --> 00:54:56.010
Andy Miller III: Is it's the witness of what this could do what it might lead other people to I think that that would be my very good what you've helped me see like is this leaning into, and does it have the possibility of leading somebody to another world view.
00:54:56.490 --> 00:55:01.680
Christopher Berg: Here you got it that's exactly it well, and even with yoga I mean it, you know if we get into it.
00:55:02.790 --> 00:55:11.400
Christopher Berg: When you actually have the Christian yoga books and things like that it's like this is still fairly interesting they, the problem is they thought well if I just remove all the god references that would do it.
00:55:12.060 --> 00:55:17.430
Christopher Berg: But it doesn't match I mentioned in there to other organizations that are Christian alternatives to yoga.
00:55:17.970 --> 00:55:22.350
Christopher Berg: or or alternatives to Christian yoga I think there's a way to put it, and they explicitly said out saying.
00:55:23.250 --> 00:55:33.480
Christopher Berg: exercise is not the enemy's exercises just part of how God made us and that's true our bodies and that's the thing yoga doesn't own exercise yoga doesn't own the human body.
00:55:34.410 --> 00:55:41.370
Christopher Berg: So the they set out to say we are explicitly rejecting all of the tenants of yoga we're just developing an exercise program that's usable with Christians.
00:55:42.120 --> 00:55:45.480
Christopher Berg: And they did a great job all right well it's actually have an interview with her on my website as well.
00:55:45.720 --> 00:55:53.850
Christopher Berg: But I will this is great I love her so much she's awesome and she's got a really solid program she explains it all she's like look, this is the missionary Hinduism or yoga missionary arm of Hinduism.
00:55:54.180 --> 00:56:01.350
Christopher Berg: This stuff is worshiping God the stuff is built to separate the soul from the body it's built for spiritual purposes physical is only ever secondary.
00:56:02.220 --> 00:56:10.050
Christopher Berg: And so, she built a whole exercise program that's that's really good so yeah there's alternatives, we don't have to do yoga to be healthy, we just know there's other stuff out there.
00:56:11.250 --> 00:56:21.210
Andy Miller III: Okay last question is like what if somebody is in a church and their pastor is presenting on this idea, you know it's very complicated to think about approaching approaching the spiritual leader of your congregation.
00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:26.070
Andy Miller III: To talk about this, or what would you suggest somebody do in that situation.
00:56:26.130 --> 00:56:35.400
Christopher Berg: So i'll give that and i'll give you an A couple general things about how we're how we can go forward from around our society, right now, because that's also just difficult people frank more more difficult.
00:56:35.850 --> 00:56:47.130
Christopher Berg: So the problem is this is with a spiritual leader somebody in there, we have as a church Member, we have every right to raise questions and concerns from scripture.
00:56:47.790 --> 00:56:57.750
Christopher Berg: So the first thing, but we have to do in a respectful way and we have to do it in a way that gives them the opportunity to alter or change their mind or be corrected, without.
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:06.210
Christopher Berg: rebuking so hard if a fellow pastor that's more you can review if it's a pastor on level if it's coming from from under level.
00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:09.540
Christopher Berg: You can still make the case for it there's nothing wrong with that.
00:57:10.260 --> 00:57:15.660
Christopher Berg: But the attitude has to still be an adjustment because it's still your pastor you still remember there's still got to be a submission there.
00:57:15.990 --> 00:57:21.360
Christopher Berg: But you believe that there's something with this that's not alignment of scripture you have every right to bring it to their attention.
00:57:21.870 --> 00:57:35.130
Christopher Berg: Now you then have the conversation, you have the discussion, etc, if they say no, and like, in this case you're convinced No, this is this is like I am, this is it that's a time to find a new church situation it just is.
00:57:35.460 --> 00:57:37.230
Christopher Berg: yeah hopefully within the denomination of their thing.
00:57:37.410 --> 00:57:49.920
Christopher Berg: But at that point, you can no longer submit to their authority because you've essentially said they are walking on purpose unrepentantly outside of scripture and outside of Christian orthodoxy.
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:58.470
Christopher Berg: So, at that point that's a that's a church change issue, hopefully still with them into domination, but it's you know or within your group, but you'd have to.
00:57:59.190 --> 00:58:01.110
Christopher Berg: Because this has been a start to become.
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:06.480
Christopher Berg: A dominant thing people do sermons on this, they do trainings on this, they hire people I mean it's it's a whole thing.
00:58:07.350 --> 00:58:18.300
Christopher Berg: Unfortunately, if you're in a church Member elder a pastor situation that's how it has to go and you have to be respectful you have to be because the pastor might not know, and he might change his mind he might say Oh, my goodness, I have no clue.
00:58:18.660 --> 00:58:19.620
Christopher Berg: Right sure sure.
00:58:20.310 --> 00:58:22.530
Christopher Berg: You can feel free you can even say hey have you seen this book.
00:58:23.640 --> 00:58:24.270
Andy Miller III: Here you go.
00:58:24.510 --> 00:58:34.800
Christopher Berg: hey if you read this book, you know you can do it like that, but you've got to be respectful because of the relationship and how it is, in terms of these direct challenges they're gonna turn pastors and elders off.
00:58:35.430 --> 00:58:36.270
Christopher Berg: Right it's just you know.
00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:42.630
Andy Miller III: Probably as a pastor I could say like it's a little tough if somebody comes up like a heresy hunter on yeah.
00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:44.070
Christopher Berg: Exactly exactly.
00:58:44.430 --> 00:58:52.920
Andy Miller III: But i'll admit like, of course, in people, I could I could bring up areas that i've changed, where I felt like something I might have emphasized earlier in my Ministry.
00:58:54.150 --> 00:58:55.290
Andy Miller III: People have helped me.
00:58:55.530 --> 00:59:00.750
Andy Miller III: see a fuller picture of the implications of some of the things that I was preaching and leading it and.
00:59:01.080 --> 00:59:12.150
Andy Miller III: So, but it's hard it's hard to make those changes and maybe this podcast will be something you could share, we could share to like you could just say hey listen to this listen Andy talked about this with with Chris This might be a way into a conversation.
00:59:12.600 --> 00:59:16.770
Christopher Berg: And I think that's the case when it's that type of a relationship, you know.
00:59:17.850 --> 00:59:30.330
Christopher Berg: We just got to be respectful and it's doing an interview like this is great a book is great having a conversation coming like a heresy hunting kind of thing it just it automatically turns the person who's who's in authority off it just turns them off.
00:59:30.600 --> 00:59:35.160
Christopher Berg: Right, and I think people in my integration say oh question various things and stuff and we have a nice.
00:59:35.220 --> 00:59:40.650
Christopher Berg: scriptural theological conversation and that always goes well, always gets us back to where we need to be.
00:59:41.040 --> 00:59:45.780
Christopher Berg: So that's my encouragement for people who are dealing with this and then, if they say no, this is the way we're going sorry.
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:53.370
Christopher Berg: I think there's some other theological convictions that might be the might be problematic sufficiency of scripture looks like it might be being denied, maybe even authority.
00:59:53.880 --> 01:00:05.490
Christopher Berg: will see you know you got to maybe probe on some of those doctrinal issues because i've had pastors at i've had pastors at very large churches tell me, we officially denied the sufficiency of scripture.
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:07.440
Andy Miller III: wow those words.
01:00:08.160 --> 01:00:11.790
Christopher Berg: Oh, I was, I asked it pointedly and I got appointed answer.
01:00:12.150 --> 01:00:18.930
Christopher Berg: Well, you know i've had this happen i'm not gonna say anything about who raised with that, but i've had this happen, and I was shocked.
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Andy Miller III: I wish i'd have pastors.
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Christopher Berg: Admit that they are pragmatists.
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Andy Miller III: yeah.
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Christopher Berg: I mean you name it and I did some investigating oh boy, it was a response I got fascinated so yeah.
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Andy Miller III: wow well Chris one of the things this podcast is called more to the story, and I hope everybody's seen there's more to the story than just a simple.
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Andy Miller III: personality profile involved with the instagram there's a whole worldview.
01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:48.150
Andy Miller III: That Ultimately, this is not of God and there might even be a demonic sense of like what's happening in it that is meant to pull you away.
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Andy Miller III: And let's just be cautious but more to store so there's more to this story to integrate but I always ask this I tried to ask of all my all my interviews is there, more to the story for Chris like Is there something you like to do beyond talk about CS Lewis and apologetics.
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Christopher Berg: Oh man yeah there's a lot of things.
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Christopher Berg: I mean My big passion, I would say, I mean this is one of them right definitely.
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Christopher Berg: And I know the next thing about say may not put me in the best camp, but my wife is messianic Jewish.
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Christopher Berg: Okay, and her whole family her family was they actually got saved out of Judaism into messianic Judaism was a fascinating story.
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Christopher Berg: yeah and so i've always had a passion for the Old Testament have always had a passion for Israel.
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Christopher Berg: And and for understanding things in that nature, and so I love a little archaeology and I love talking about Israel and about the Old Testament so that's my other kind of big passion, as well as that kind of stuff in the covenants and things and a lot of fun.
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Andy Miller III: awesome what we know where can people find information about you, if they want to.
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Andy Miller III: Read more of what you've written or see some of your speaking or get in touch with you, where can they find you.
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Christopher Berg: So i've got my articles published on so T dot church that's what my articles are published it's our church website, but it's also where my articles are published i've got probably about 4050 articles on there.
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Christopher Berg: And then I also have a YouTube spirit of truth outreach so you go spirit to that Rachel fan YouTube we've got.
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Christopher Berg: All kinds of apologetics we've got a full systematic theology course on their free just you know watch it we've got I do live web stream of webcasts every week Tuesdays and Thursdays, alternating and we have services as well, so it's a lot of fun.
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Andy Miller III: Great well Chris Thank you so much for taking time with me and my audience, it means a lot to me, and thank you for the work you're doing, I know that there's been.
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Andy Miller III: discouragement probably it's come because of the criticism you receive but really just being be encouraged by the way, guys using you.