Follow the Healer with Steve Seamands
August 24, 2023
Today I sit down with Dr. Steve Seamands to talk about his new book Follow the Healer. Steve draws upon four decades of teaching theology and active involvement in healing ministry to help us understand the essential theological foundations for healing ministry in a way that is simple and accessible. I loved this conversation and think you will too.
Youtube - https://youtu.be/G1l9EpBEVjQ
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Welcome to the more test story. Podcast. I'm so glad that you have come along for this episode. This is one that when I found out that this book was written I knew immediately I had to get the author on. And so I'm really glad in a minute. Here I'll welcome in Steve Siemens. And it's gonna be a helpful conversation for all of us. But I want, you know, this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing
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Andy Miller III: trusted leaders for faithful churches. And this summer, we have been overwhelmed by the way that the global Methodist Church has come to us at Wesley Biblical Seminary after we are approved institution. And then we started our course of study for people wanting to enter or seek credentials to be ordained ministers in a global Methodist church. You might not believe this, but we've added 250 students
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Andy Miller III: to our our school here, and we have now we have 600% growth. And so we are building the ship while it is at sea. But it's an exciting time as we're serving these students who are incredibly hungry, and we have a variety of offerings that we would love for you to consider from a Wesley Institute which starts just after Labor Day, which is a program, takes people through one. Every book of the Bible and the Bible track.
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Andy Miller III: or 9 months of theological studies as well. So that's kind of for laypeople Sunday school teachers that we have in mind for that. But then our course of study for the global Methodist church master's M. Divas. Mdiv. Doctor of Ministry. We love for you to think about Wesley Biblical Seminar. You can find out more about us at Wbs, Edu. And secondly, I'm so thankful to my friend Bill Roberts, who helped sponsors this, podcast.
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Andy Miller III: He is a financial planner who comes at that from a Christian perspective, and really helps people, particularly pastors, think about the way they can approach retirement. That's not something that really, I think about very much, and I'm so thankful for people like Bill, who can come alongside of people to help people with that, so you can find out more about him at William H. roberts.com.
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And finally, I wanna make sure. You know, a couple of things are coming from the morning story podcast one, I have a free resource available for people. It's called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. I know that sounds a little gimmicky, but I really believe it's true that if we can take time to learn how to read Scripture well, and to think creatively about how we present it, I think I can use that in your life
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and in your ministry. So there's a video teaching. And then an 8 page document that you can get for free if you sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the third com. That's Andy Miller Iii.
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Andy Miller III: i.com. And at the end of the month of August I have a new
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Andy Miller III: small group study coming out on heaven. And it's a 5 sessions. We're about a half an hour each with discussion guides. So be on the lookout for that that might actually be out by the time this podcast comes out alright. I'm so glad to welcome in my former professor and friend, Dr. Steve. Seamen, Steve. Welcome to podcast
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Steve Seamands: it's it's great to be with you, Andy. I think I was with you back in February. Right? Sort of outpouring. And we were talking about what God was beginning to do here and but it's great to be back with you again.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah. Oh, and people might recommend. You're sitting in the same seat, and that was a Sunday afternoon, and I was so anxious to want to be a part of the revival that II just had to find, and I knew you were there, and I knew you'd be able to share. So that was a real delight to hear about what your experience with that, and also kind of the beautiful way that it it book ends, or as a part of, like the beginning of your ministry while you were still at in college, and then here in retirement, to be able to experience that before we go into your book.
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Andy Miller III: you know, W. We're now 6 months after the outpouring did. What are you thinking about these days? As it relates to what happened there?
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Steve Seamands: Well, I think that the Asbury outpouring was a kind of a
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Steve Seamands: signal
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Steve Seamands: sort of shot heard around the world. Sort of signal to the to to the body of Christ, globally, globally.
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Steve Seamands: that the Lord is up to something.
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Steve Seamands: And
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Steve Seamands: he says, Isaiah says, Seek the Lord while I may be found, call upon him while he is near. I believe, Andy, that we're in a season in a time when the Lord wants to be found.
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Steve Seamands: and he wants to come near, if if we will, you know, humble ourselves and pray, and seek his face and turn from our wicked ways, he'll show up, and if we'll just simply say, Lord,
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Steve Seamands: What do you wanna do in my
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Steve Seamands: community? My spirit influence my life, my congregation.
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Steve Seamands: What do? What do you want to do to bring renewal and awakening, and we and we'll sort of
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Steve Seamands: live into that. I believe we'll be amazed
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Steve Seamands: and surprised at what will happen. So I think that's where we are.
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Steve Seamands: And that significance of that outpouring. Not only so what it did for us, for you know, for folks, personally and individually, but I think it's it was actually a message to the whole body of Christ.
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Steve Seamands: Yeah. And I'm I'm hopeful that in in how that connects to your book as well. Jesus, the Healer. I'm not sure if it's out yet. When does it come out, Steve? It actually comes out on the fifth of September. It's it's order up. It's on Amazon preorder, that sort of thing now. But yeah, the fifth of September. So just for 3 more weeks or so. Yeah.
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Andy Miller III: so it's it. One of these combined publications from seedbed and Zander Van. So really thankful for this to come at this time. And it's interesting, too. Of course, I you helped me think through these type of things when I was in your class, maybe not to be too
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Andy Miller III: tribal in the sense of like. All right, we have a Wesleyan voice coming through. It's like it's bigger than that. But there! There is a Wesleyan accent in a kind of a Pan Wesley and perspective. But there is something about like, maybe why, God's led to the point of having the outpouring as it is, and even a book on healing, because
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Andy Miller III: I'm sad to say that there have been people who, when they just even hear that word, they think, and they may be pushed away a little bit. But there might be a way that this comes from the Wesleyan tradition that makes it easier for people across the body of Christ
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Andy Miller III: to hear do you think that there there might be a connection between that idea and even the recognition of the outpouring?
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Steve Seamands: Yeah, I think II think the focus in the outpouring on the holiness of God, and just that
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Steve Seamands: so that that Wesley and Center, that true north, as it were. was very significant. And
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Steve Seamands: someone even commented on that in an article that he wrote and Christianity today about the outpouring, and I think. In in when it comes to healing.
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Steve Seamands: we we we're sort of we Wesleyans are are are between.
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Steve Seamands: The cessation is over on one side, you know, who are skittish about healing, and some would even say, healing is, you know, was for the first century. But it's it's not for the present age.
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Steve Seamands: Most folks, I think, have
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Steve Seamands: pretty much cast that idea away. Or aside, I think, the the role of healing in the global church is just so
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Steve Seamands: immense and huge and significant. It's kind of hard to be a cessationist today. Yeah. But but what I find is that there are a lot of folks that aren't doctrinally cessationist.
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Steve Seamands: but they're practically cessation. They're still kind of skittish about healing. And yeah, we believe that God can heal Jesus can heal. But we're really not expecting that much in our in our context. So so, on the one hand, there's that there's that extreme.
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Steve Seamands: And then the other extreme is Pentecostals and charismatics, who have, really dived in
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Steve Seamands: to healing.
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Steve Seamands: and oftentimes are gung ho about healing, but sometimes have gone off the rails a little bit.
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Steve Seamands: and some of their teaching, and some of their understanding of healing, and sometimes going to an extreme, you might say, one group under believes in the other group over belief. And I really think there's a Wesley and Middle that would call the folks who are skip skeptical to be more open.
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Steve Seamands: And after all, this was one of the 3 primary things that Jesus did in this ministry bridge taught and heal, but also on the other side. Charismatics and Pentecostals.
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Steve Seamands: Well, I think many of them are actually looking for something that's more balanced and biblically rooted and grounded.
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Steve Seamands: and that that can help them do that actually more fruitfully
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Steve Seamands: and and helpfully. So I'm hoping that actually, this book follow the healer will sort of serve as a bridge between.
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Steve Seamands: Both of those are in the middle of stand in the middle, and actually just encourages all to be able to join Jesus in his ongoing ministry of healing in the world today. In a more fruitful
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Andy Miller III: Amen. I hope so that you said in there that it's been an emphasis in your writing and teaching and preaching that I certainly like. I don't know how to say it, Steve, like in the right way, like I'm one of your
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Andy Miller III: your children in the ministry, so to speak. So you people might pick up an accent that has Steve siemens it. But and so I've tried to say this in my own work. But it you've emphasized the importance of in this book, does it, too? Whose ministry are we talking about here?
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Andy Miller III: And and you just you just highlight it. But going into go ahead and help people get this point. I mean, you know, we have people listening across kind of like denominational perspectives. But a lot of our folks are connected to various seminaries, and you know we often not my ministry. But who's ministry? Are we talking about.
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Steve Seamands: Yeah, you know II when I came out of seminary, Andy, II tended to think it was my ministry, and I was offering Christ to them, you know, about 5 years into ministry I came to, I came to the realization that actually all authentic Christian ministry is really just a participation in the ongoing ministry of Jesus Christ.
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Steve Seamands: Tend to think. You know he had a 3 year ministry, and then he has. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and he's in heaven. And you know now the ministries in our hands. But actually, I think the the resurrection of Jesus from the dead was not only the resurrection of his body, but it was the resurrection of his ministry. He's only just begun, and now, but now he does it through his body, the Church through us. But it's the ongoing ministry of Jesus and
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Steve Seamands: whether you're teaching a course on preaching, preaching is the ongoing, preaching ministry of uses
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Steve Seamands: and healing is the ongoing, healing ministry of Jesus
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Steve Seamands: being affected through us, and actually, that is tremendously liberating to know and understand, because in in effect it takes the burden off of you and me, if it's his ministry, and then I join him.
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Steve Seamands: Then I quit praying.
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Steve Seamands: help me, Lord.
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Steve Seamands: to do it right to Lord, help yourself to me.
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Steve Seamands: help yourself to me, take me and use me, but affect your ministry in me and through me. That is just that is so critical to understand. If you're in Christian ministry that all all your ministry is really joining him and his
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Steve Seamands: and
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Andy Miller III: And there's interesting passage, the Esv and the King James version translate a verse there differently than anybody than any other translation. It says
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Andy Miller III: that that that God, he in this point he rides on the wings of the wind. This says, after he wraps himself in light, I mean very familiar song, and but he's he rides on the wings of the wind. But the Esp. Gives a more wooden translation, and it says, he makes his messengers wins.
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Andy Miller III: Okay, so the idea here that is like, I think it. It's a old other translation. You say he makes the wind his messengers, but the idea is that we are the wind that he rides on.
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Andy Miller III: That. I think that that's what they're trying to imply in in in that there's an adventure with this, like we somehow get invited in to his work
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Steve Seamands: right, and we participate with him in the task that he has in redeeming the world. So it's kind of it's kind of amazing that. He really wants us to go along for the ride, and that, you know, because, God really is interested in
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Steve Seamands: partnership relationship in and partnership in relation.
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Steve Seamands: You know. He wants us to partner with him.
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Steve Seamands: you know. Kind of like, he says to Adam, way back in the guard, well, hey, you name the animals, man.
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Steve Seamands: and but I really think that he that's his desire, you know. He wants us to partner with him sometimes intercessory prayer like is like that. He he puts on our hearts the things that he himself
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Steve Seamands: longs to do, and wants to do, and then we pray the very, though into those things, and then they happen
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Andy Miller III: right. It's it's a mystery why he would choose to use us, and how he uses us. But, man, I'm so thankful he does so, fulfilling at the same time, you know, sometimes people don't this they might embrace that side of it, maybe in preaching ministry, but maybe not the healing side and
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Andy Miller III: and and you you work through. II saw a footnote as well, that this these 5 ways that God heals
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Andy Miller III: and and maybe you could tell us about the source of that, too. I saw I saw that I thought that was interesting, that it comes from a few different people, but nevertheless, I think these we might not have time to go over all 5. But and I think that's a really helpful way to bring people in to the variety of healings that can happen as we enter into Jesus ministry. Yeah, I heard actually, Dr. Frank Stanger.
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And when I was a student first talk about the 5 ways Jesus heals.
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Steve Seamands: And I think he may have actually gotten some of those from East Emily Jones. I'm not exactly sure, but I think that might be the source of them, but it really been helpful to me to understand that Jesus is
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Steve Seamands: is is both, you know, our Creator and our Redeemer, and
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Steve Seamands: he's the Lord of heaven and earth, and he. He works. First of all, he heals directly and supernaturally when when we think of healing.
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Steve Seamands: that's the way we tend to think of
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Steve Seamands: Christian healing. But that's just. That's one of the ways he heals. But secondly, he heals through medicine and through doctors. They here again this partnership things. I think they're that they don't. A lot of them don't realize it, but they're partnering with him as he heals through medi medical science and doctors, and
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Steve Seamands: so we should encourage people to go to, to, to go to physicians and and and pray for our doctors.
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Steve Seamands: When we, when that God would lead them and guide them as they diagnose session, and as they prescribe things for us, and so forth.
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Steve Seamands: God heals also through the mirror the healing powers of the human body.
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Steve Seamands: It's built healing into our system, as it were. You know our immune system, and you know you cut yourself, and your blood starts coagulating, you know, and
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Steve Seamands: it's we are made for healing. And actually, in relation to that, I find sometimes what I do in healing per ministry is to try to remove some obstacles, sometimes like things like unforgiveness, bitterness. And I could like mentioned some fear, anxiety. These kinds of things
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Steve Seamands: actually keep our bodies from being able to function the way God intended them to sometime.
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Steve Seamands: And I've had occasions where, when we were able to help this person. Let's just say, forgive someone that a physical problem that they had literally just went away on its own.
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Steve Seamands: I've seen that happen. But
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Steve Seamands: He heals through the the healing power of the human body. And then there's the the healing power of my grace is sufficient for you
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Steve Seamands: like he gives Paul with his thorn in the flesh. That that he enables us to live
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Steve Seamands: victoriously, sometimes with with afflictions
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Steve Seamands: and the things that that
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Steve Seamands: won't get healed till heaven as a core that we live with, you know. But I've known people who have
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Steve Seamands: have have exhibited a great measure of grace in their life. It's been, it's been a. It's been astounding, and a joy to actually watch them
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Steve Seamands: as they live triumphantly and joyfully, with with infirmities
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Steve Seamands: and and and and things that God doesn't heal. And then, lastly, the healing Jesus heals through victorious dying as as as as.
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Steve Seamands: and and and speaking of of Wesley, Andy.
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Steve Seamands: and one of the things I didn't realize at the time when I heard that from Doctor Stanger, but much later on I when I went back and studied Wesley himself in his practice, I realized, Hey, he had us. He had actually a strong emphasis on all 5 of those, and they all show up.
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Steve Seamands: And so there's that kind of balanced understanding of of healing. And one of the things that actually leads me to conclude is that Jesus actually always
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Steve Seamands: wells to heal. So I don't pray, Lord, if it be, or will
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Steve Seamands: this person
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Steve Seamands: but I just don't know which of these 5
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Steve Seamands: or which combination of this of these 5. Sometimes Jesus wants to use to heal this person. So you know, it's not a question of if but how you might say
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Steve Seamands: no.
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Steve Seamands: anyway, that's really helped me. And I think, those of us in in healing ministry need that sort of full
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Steve Seamands: or sort of inclusive understanding of the way, Jesus heals.
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Andy Miller III: I wanna I'm gonna just list the 5 here in a second. I wanna ask you more specifically about the last 2. But you know, first one directly, which is like through supernatural healing doctors and medicine using the body as the third, the natural ways that God heals us, then bestowing grace and difficult circumstances, and then victorious dying. So those are the 5, just in case people are taking notes. But you know. So my push back on number 4 like, is is that really healing?
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Andy Miller III: If how, how can that be healing?
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Andy Miller III: If somebody is not healed like it's grace. That helping somebody just to learn to deal with something I don't know. I'm I'm trying to play devil's advocate here a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. And II understand that II just go back to that passage, and Second Corinthians 12, where Paul talks about his thorn in the flesh.
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Steve Seamands: and he he actually says that
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Steve Seamands: my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect, and weakness.
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Steve Seamands: and Paul, and and so then Paul says, I boast about this, now II glory in this.
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Steve Seamands: and it seems to me that perfected strength made perfect and glorying in our infirmities.
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Steve Seamands: that that's a work of healing, and that's a work of grace.
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Steve Seamands: Yeah, that's not just. You know, managing to sort of hold on right
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Andy Miller III: will come. Can come in each situation
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Andy Miller III: the the last one. This is really helpful to me. When I read this I read in an article version, then, in the kind of the the proof version of the book that you have dying grace, the the healing of death.
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Andy Miller III: I obviously don't think of that. But if if we were just materialist who didn't believe that there was anything beyond this life or not a resurrection of the body. Well, maybe we could see how that quit wouldn't be the case. But really you you go into. II love this little section of your book about the gift
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Andy Miller III: of death. That that death is I hadn't thought about that too much.
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Steve Seamands: Yeah. You know.
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Steve Seamands: we we Americans. That's one of the taboo things we don't talk about, isn't it? You know. And we, we tend to avoid death. But but actually, it's it's it's that which takes us
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Steve Seamands: actually into the into the life to come
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Steve Seamands: and and and actually prepares us, then for the ultimate resurrection of the body.
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Steve Seamands: and it's really interesting. The early Methodists really strongly emphasized
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Steve Seamands: this and and part of this that actually came out of the Puritan tradition, that your your deathbed
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Steve Seamands: was supposed to be a sort of a pulpit. Hmm! But not only
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Steve Seamands: you know where you supposed to share, to hear loved ones come and sort of say their goodbyes to you, but that you, as a as a believer.
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Steve Seamands: you know, as that, as that veil between this world and the next gets real thin. And you know, sometimes people when they're dying, they kind of move back and forth a little bit in, in lots of examples of that happening, but that you actually have some things to say to your, to people and to share with people.
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Steve Seamands: Yeah. And so you know, John Wesley included in the Ma are many a magazine accounts of people's victorious dying. They called it happy deaths.
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Steve Seamands: So yeah, II think we need to understand that. And actually, it's something that I don't think we in American
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Steve Seamands: con. The American context have taught people much about or talked much about.
00:24:22.690 --> 00:24:32.440
Steve Seamands: you know, and maybe we need to reclaim a little bit, too. We sort of turn the whole dying process over
00:24:32.660 --> 00:24:45.530
Steve Seamands: just sort of a biomedical perspective framework. And we've lost some of the actually traditional Christian understanding on the art of dying
00:24:45.580 --> 00:24:48.060
Steve Seamands: and preparing to die, you know.
00:24:48.140 --> 00:25:16.000
Andy Miller III: So anyway, there's a whole about that. Well, you know, in in my tradition, growing up in the savage army we called pho! When somebody dies they're promoted to glory. We have this and then and then on top of that, there is this you talk about something that happens when somebody dies. I think somebody who lived relative close to you. I just I don't even know their first names, but the the older Moulton's Colonel Moulton, I think, on the same street issue.
00:25:16.060 --> 00:25:33.530
Andy Miller III: When his wife died. She had, you know, had lost her memory, but very close to end of her death. She sang all 7 verses of Oh, boundless salvation! Oh, wow! It just it was like this pulpit type of moment, and, like you know
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:51.259
Andy Miller III: God does give this grace, this deathbed grace, you know, and I love the idea of thinking of it as a pulpit, and also connected to healing like this bigger picture than just the healing that can come in one moment physical healing. But this is a part of the way that we can continue to pray
00:25:51.630 --> 00:25:52.490
Steve Seamands: right.
00:25:52.850 --> 00:25:53.829
Andy Miller III: I love that
00:25:54.220 --> 00:26:23.040
Andy Miller III: now, one of the things I want wonders like as I think about some churches that are may maybe responding to the signal call, like we said, that comes from the outpouring, and at the same time May. There's, you know, thousands of churches that have disaffiliated from the United Methodist Church. We come in global methods or or partnering with other denominations and other people too, or just wanting to be a part of that, they sent something new. What could you say that
00:26:23.050 --> 00:26:31.220
Andy Miller III: for some of these churches that might want to emphasize healing ministry more? What are some steps that they could take
00:26:31.410 --> 00:26:33.440
Andy Miller III: to do this in their churches.
00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:42.110
Steve Seamands: Yeah. Well, if I were, if I were a pastor or a part of a leadership team I think
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.330
Steve Seamands: I would encourage them. Huh!
00:26:45.720 --> 00:27:01.870
Steve Seamands: Number one to just spend some a few months in prayer, saying, Lord, is this something you want us to focus on and emphasize a bit, and then maybe begin to do some things. For example, if you've never, if you've never
00:27:02.110 --> 00:27:14.610
Steve Seamands: great for invited people to come forward, and and maybe be anointed with oil, and receive prayer at the end of the service, or sometimes in churches. They'll do it
00:27:14.630 --> 00:27:18.150
Steve Seamands: when they have Communion Sunday after
00:27:18.290 --> 00:27:25.780
Steve Seamands: the person folks have received the elements, they can go over to a couple of people, some stations.
00:27:25.890 --> 00:27:37.589
Steve Seamands: prayer teams, and receive prayer for healing that might just be a very simple thing that you, you know, you could begin to do another thing. You might just say
00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:41.470
Steve Seamands: once a quarter. We're gonna have a healing service.
00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:59.520
Steve Seamands: So folks begin to know. Oh, that's the time you can go. So you you can do things like that. I think another thing I would do if I were in leadership is, I would pray and ask the Lord to begin to help me identify
00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:08.000
Steve Seamands: the folks in the congregation or the context that have some healing gifts?
00:28:08.450 --> 00:28:19.919
Steve Seamands: No, there are healing gifts of the spirit, their spiritual gifts that go along. You might just say that are related to healing, and
00:28:20.070 --> 00:28:25.090
Steve Seamands: I would want to see if if we could begin to identify who the folks are.
00:28:25.370 --> 00:28:33.350
Steve Seamands: you know. I mean, if if I even ask myself well, who would be the people that would be in those prayer teams to pray for people?
00:28:33.990 --> 00:28:34.890
Steve Seamands: I
00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:42.719
Steve Seamands: I would think of some people probably right off the top of my head in my congregation, and maybe not someone else.
00:28:42.820 --> 00:28:59.489
Steve Seamands: to actually be the person that's you know, administrating something, you know, or better, is in the financial end of the church, or something fine, you know you get people. But I wanna say, Lord, would you begin to draw. Those people.
00:28:59.760 --> 00:29:03.249
Steve Seamands: you know, begin to call those people out.
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:04.530
Steve Seamands: And
00:29:04.800 --> 00:29:18.100
Steve Seamands: I might even take do a book study, of course, or something, or preach some sermons on healing, and W. Those things would probably begin to help you identify who the folks are
00:29:18.310 --> 00:29:34.249
Steve Seamands: that are are drawn, and then then what I would do is I would begin to equip those people. I'd have some simple training sessions on. You know how to basic rudimentary kinds of things in terms of how to pray for people
00:29:34.390 --> 00:29:37.529
Steve Seamands: you know, who have healing needs. And
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:47.710
Steve Seamands: there's a nice, easy sort of 5 step model for healing that actually goes back to John Wember, but has become almost
00:29:47.770 --> 00:30:09.140
Steve Seamands: Well, it's all over the body of Christ, you know, but it's a helpful, simple way, and there's just some practical things, you know, and and my book actually is partly to help folks that are in healing ministry to gain some theological framework for for healing ministry. But, those are some of the things I would begin to do
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:10.690
Steve Seamands: if I were
00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:13.530
Steve Seamands: in leadership, sensing that
00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:21.060
Steve Seamands: the Lord wants to do some healing work. Here a lot of churches have ministries like celebrate recovery.
00:30:21.300 --> 00:30:34.969
Steve Seamands: and that actually a a engages in a lot of healing kinds of ministry. particularly with people with various kinds of addictions, you know. But that's another kind of thing one could do.
00:30:35.170 --> 00:30:38.469
Steve Seamands: If one wanted to emphasize healing. I think
00:30:39.100 --> 00:30:42.070
Steve Seamands: so. Those are just a few things. I just.
00:30:42.150 --> 00:30:58.859
Andy Miller III: yeah, yeah, I think that people, I think there's a very, there's not a very intimidating process that you just laid out there, for you know, first to pray about it to seek it out. I'll save you from from my experience. I'm so thankful that I was challenged to do this a decade or so
00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:24.259
Andy Miller III: into full time ministry. Actually, Steve Elliot's book, I think that you wrote of, you know endorsement for it like wonders. And I. Finally I woke up to say, and and here's here's what my challenge to passers. If you're kind of worried. Well, Andy, you don't know I have this congregation that's a little bit more. They! They wouldn't be welcoming this idea. I'm I was surprised at how
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.180
Andy Miller III: ready people were to receive healing prayer, and then also
00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:53.350
Andy Miller III: how much I love to do it, how much I love to to pray for people, I mean, and and you realize that moment when somebody is sharing with you whatever it is. The the beauty of the of the opportunity to connect with people, and as a passer and and as a professor, too, like, you know, when you get to engage students in a certain way. Man, this is why I'm here, and you just realize that this. These are the moments that you are made for.
00:31:54.180 --> 00:32:13.340
Steve Seamands: Yeah, it's and you know, I found over the years when I've gone in to local churches that have maybe never had a healing service. Or no one can remember if they ever did it just said, Well, tonight, you know, we're gonna have us a healing service. I tell you
00:32:13.570 --> 00:32:15.590
Steve Seamands: folks are not bashful
00:32:17.010 --> 00:32:21.860
Steve Seamands: a when when it comes to coming forward to receive prayer for healing needs.
00:32:22.410 --> 00:32:26.590
Steve Seamands: they, they and and like you, said.
00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:28.620
Steve Seamands: I think
00:32:29.670 --> 00:32:34.240
Steve Seamands: it's a wonderful way to express God's love for people.
00:32:34.620 --> 00:32:35.300
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
00:32:35.410 --> 00:32:36.600
Steve Seamands: Renee.
00:32:36.670 --> 00:32:47.659
Steve Seamands: come forward, and you know we pray for people. We don't. We're not. I like to say I'm not in in management. I'm in sales when it comes to healing. I don't know
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.489
Steve Seamands: how God's gonna heal this person
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:55.809
Steve Seamands: but I just want them to experience God's love for them.
00:32:56.450 --> 00:32:59.509
Steve Seamands: And so like you said, this is what I
00:32:59.780 --> 00:33:07.960
Steve Seamands: I was made for as a leader, I want to do these kinds of things because you're you're hitting people at a point of where they really feel a deep sense of need.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.130
Steve Seamands: Hmm, you know.
00:33:10.030 --> 00:33:14.240
Steve Seamands: Yeah, I think you'd be surprised if you will just do it.
00:33:14.860 --> 00:33:26.510
Steve Seamands: Hello! Even though you're a little skittish and not afraid. Folks will come. Yeah. they want to receive prayer for healing
00:33:27.030 --> 00:33:40.359
Andy Miller III: in in in New York. We're asked to do this. This is something that we we want to obey and follow Jesus. Follow the Healer. We're asked to pray for people who are sick, so let's
00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:46.639
Andy Miller III: and and freight. We were given instructions in in James 5 as well. So
00:33:46.850 --> 00:34:02.530
Andy Miller III: and you just mentioned something to I wanna follow up on you said that you're wanting to give a little more theological foundations for folks who are in healing ministry. What te tell me about that? Like, what are some of the areas
00:34:02.730 --> 00:34:04.469
Andy Miller III: this book
00:34:04.760 --> 00:34:08.780
makes up for that's missing in some of those healing areas.
00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:19.199
Steve Seamands: Well, I think, for example, it's really important to understand the relationship in the ministry of Jesus between healing and the kingdom of God.
00:34:19.969 --> 00:34:32.179
Steve Seamands: That concept, because you know His healing miracles. In addition to his proclaiming, You know the time has come the the the kingdom is here.
00:34:32.230 --> 00:34:38.660
Steve Seamands: Pingham is is now it's near. Repent! Believe in the good news. That was his message right
00:34:38.810 --> 00:34:54.640
Steve Seamands: but his healing miracles were the you might just say the demonstration that what he said really was true, that the kingdom was here, and what that meant was that the in a sense, the the new age
00:34:55.420 --> 00:35:06.939
Steve Seamands: is, has invaded. The new creation has invaded old creation. the future. What what we expected to see at the very end of time is happening now.
00:35:07.270 --> 00:35:24.790
Steve Seamands: so th that's important to understand. But then it's important to also understand. As Jesus taught about the kingdom, he talked about the mystery of the kingdom that and this is where we kind of messed with the Jewish timeline that the disciples were used to.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:39.919
Steve Seamands: They were expecting it all to happen kind of at the very end. The kingdom would come, you know. But Jesus is saying, Well, it has come, but it's also gotta come. It's here, but it's not yet here, so it's already not yet.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:49.950
Steve Seamands: and that already not yet. Sort of comp understanding of the kingdom is very important to understand in healing ministry.
00:35:50.410 --> 00:35:54.180
Steve Seamands: because, some people want it to be.
00:35:54.570 --> 00:35:56.159
Steve Seamands: Paul. Not yet.
00:35:56.170 --> 00:36:11.069
Steve Seamands: Well, that's not for now that's for not yet. That's for heaven that's for. And then there's others that want it to be all already right. Right? It's all. No, it's all right now and and then that kind of leads to
00:36:11.080 --> 00:36:29.710
Steve Seamands: I ideas that. So if you don't get healed when you ask to be or pre ask to receive prayer for healing, then maybe it's because you didn't have enough faith, or maybe it's cause one person pray for you, or maybe you didn't pray long enough. But the bottom line is the problems on your end
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.370
Steve Seamands: cause it's already it should happen. Well, actually.
00:36:33.670 --> 00:36:48.200
Steve Seamands: Jesus, teaching of the kingdom is no, it's both already and not yet. And so that puts us in a an uncomfortable place, as it were, when we're in healing ministry
00:36:48.500 --> 00:36:57.040
Steve Seamands: because a lot of times we don't know which is going to be already, and what's not yet. And what's maybe it's a combination of the 2 yeah.
00:36:57.230 --> 00:37:02.340
Steve Seamands: And logical framework really helps me
00:37:02.690 --> 00:37:06.460
Steve Seamands: not to get led to either extreme.
00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:11.710
Steve Seamands: but to live in the garden feet called at the radical middle.
00:37:12.350 --> 00:37:14.640
Steve Seamands: But it's uncomfortable.
00:37:15.950 --> 00:37:16.940
Steve Seamands: Yeah.
00:37:17.550 --> 00:37:34.919
Andy Miller III: Going back to those foundational pieces. I think it's helpful, you like. And some people might say, Oh, yeah, I've heard that already, not yet, but really like often, if we think back to these foundational, almost like the grammar of the kingdom. Kind of help us
00:37:35.130 --> 00:37:53.330
Andy Miller III: to think about the way that where we might be missing points, I think, like the same thing is true, like even just going back to the the grammar of the language of what our ministry is, what it, what we're entering the ministry of Jesus. What is a sermon like? What a sermons! A place where various
00:37:53.330 --> 00:38:05.459
Andy Miller III: congregations, a text, a preacher and an occasion come together. Oh, well, what is healing? This is a place where there's this tension between the already and not yet. So II appreciate that
00:38:05.470 --> 00:38:16.030
Steve Seamands: the thing the thing about that is, Andy. It's like these are foundational things, but they have profound practical implications, you know.
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:32.360
Steve Seamands: And, for example, if you if you're a preacher and you don't. You don't understand that? Actually. you're you're preaching as an extension of the ongoing Pre. And you're gonna take the burden of that on yourself, or you're gonna see it simply as a little talk that you're doing.
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:52.280
Steve Seamands: It's it's, you know, you know. And and so that's why that's why I felt like that's why, I've been teach teaching theology for a long time, because I really believe it's so practical. It it has such profound implications.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.939
Steve Seamands: And it's actually very freeing, too.
00:38:56.050 --> 00:38:57.470
Steve Seamands: When do you get it right?
00:38:59.080 --> 00:39:11.569
Andy Miller III: Ha! Have you been engaged? And I mean, ever since I've known you, you've been engaged in the emphasizing and teaching about healing. Has this always been a part of the work you feel like God's called you to?
00:39:11.750 --> 00:39:35.850
Steve Seamands: Well, you know my dad wrote a book called healing for damage. That's that's a very that's been translated into 35 languages. And and so II grew up around healing, etc., as it were. I was a pastor for 11 years and but actually there was a critical point in my life. I was. I was about 40 years old
00:39:36.250 --> 00:39:40.299
Steve Seamands: when I really connected, and we were going through some family
00:39:40.650 --> 00:39:47.049
Steve Seamands: trials and difficulties, raising teenagers, and that rattled my cage.
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:55.590
Steve Seamands: Sounds familiar, rattled my cage in such a way. God use that
00:39:55.630 --> 00:40:00.059
Steve Seamands: actually, to get me to kind of get connected to some
00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:09.680
Steve Seamands: early childhood pain and trauma pain that went back to when I was growing up in India, and sent away to boarding school, and
00:40:09.720 --> 00:40:13.260
Steve Seamands: and the the separation from parents, and
00:40:13.270 --> 00:40:17.850
Steve Seamands: and the loneliness, and some of the things I had done
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:19.409
Steve Seamands: to kind of
00:40:19.640 --> 00:40:29.329
Steve Seamands: protect myself from pain. II like. I described. I had kind of put a coconut shell around my heart. you know, and
00:40:29.370 --> 00:40:33.590
Steve Seamands: God use that to that, that prices.
00:40:33.950 --> 00:40:36.009
Steve Seamands: and to rattle my cage and
00:40:36.140 --> 00:40:39.110
Steve Seamands: Let me.
00:40:39.180 --> 00:40:43.150
Steve Seamands: with the help of some friends, a Christian counselor, and so forth.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:47.190
Steve Seamands: And it was like Jesus
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:51.050
Steve Seamands: came and began to crack that coconut.
00:40:51.720 --> 00:41:01.410
Steve Seamands: Open my heart up in some ways, and it was like, and and when I got can when I was able to finally engage my own suffering.
00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:07.420
Steve Seamands: It's it's like it gave me eyes to see the suffering of others.
00:41:08.590 --> 00:41:10.729
Steve Seamands: how and compassion
00:41:12.010 --> 00:41:14.030
Steve Seamands: for the suffering of others.
00:41:14.600 --> 00:41:17.110
Steve Seamands: And then it almost was like
00:41:17.600 --> 00:41:25.770
Steve Seamands: seminary students. I've been teaching really, for 7 or 8 years when this really this happened. Seminar students.
00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:29.079
Steve Seamands: They seemed to know that I knew.
00:41:30.890 --> 00:41:33.259
Steve Seamands: and they started knocking on my door.
00:41:33.430 --> 00:41:34.290
Andy Miller III: Oh.
00:41:34.590 --> 00:41:36.940
Steve Seamands: and I started.
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:49.589
Steve Seamands: I kind of backed into the ministry of healing prayer and began to learn. And you know, and so that's really how I would say I really got into this healing ministry thing.
00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:51.380
Steve Seamands: Amazing. Huh!
00:41:52.220 --> 00:42:18.819
Steve Seamands: You've emphasized, too, and I know you have a chapter on this. You have another book on a the wounds that heal right. And that's something is is that chapter is a similar type of thrust that you've written about before, or the one chapter in in this book is kind of an attempt to take that. What is the heel book and and condensed it down to one chapter. Yeah, you know, bringing our hurts to the cross right
00:42:18.870 --> 00:42:23.609
Steve Seamands: cause. It's through his wounds that were healed. And there's a lot that
00:42:24.150 --> 00:42:28.239
Steve Seamands: we can. Yeah, well, the cross is at the heart and center of healing.
00:42:28.550 --> 00:42:29.360
Andy Miller III: Hmm!
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:53.880
Andy Miller III: But Steven, so thankful for this book, and I think if people are looking at this new moment, I hope they'll go to this. I hope they'll seek it out and into you're gonna be doing some things as well. Enrolling this out. I know it might seem self promotion like a little too self promotion. E. But it could tell us, like some of the things you're gonna be doing in next couple of months with this book? We, I think people might be interested in participating.
00:42:54.210 --> 00:43:00.540
Steve Seamands: Yeah. Well, I'm gonna be out at the new Room Conference in Houston,
00:43:00.550 --> 00:43:12.210
Steve Seamands: Texas, at the end toward the end of September, and I'll be doing a a pre, a pre conference. a workshop on the book, and also speaking
00:43:12.380 --> 00:43:18.009
Steve Seamands: at the conference about it, and so forth. They're highlighting it and see bet
00:43:18.050 --> 00:43:32.779
Steve Seamands: sign difference publishing the book. But see, bed is putting together resources that go with the book. There'll be a course that goes with it, which you will include, you know, videos based on each chapter and
00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:39.660
Steve Seamands: discussion, guide and questions, and so forth, and and also even some sermon
00:43:39.740 --> 00:43:54.510
Steve Seamands: outlines and guides for pastors that want to preach through it, and they'll be pro offering it as actually a course. And actually, folks can use it as a course in local churches and so forth as well.
00:43:54.730 --> 00:43:58.110
Steve Seamands: So those are some of the things they're gonna be happening
00:43:58.250 --> 00:44:04.410
Steve Seamands: in addition to me doing some podcasts like this and just letting people know that it, that it's out there.
00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:30.520
Andy Miller III: That's great. Well, I'm so thankful that they're emphasizing this and that you're. You know that God led you to not just have this ministry, but to write about it and help others of us to to find ways to incorporate this, and to teach on it as well. So do you have any other projects coming up? I know you might not want to think about. And right now you're getting this book across the finish line, but I can't help but be interested if there's something else cooking. Well.
00:44:30.670 --> 00:44:43.749
Steve Seamands: I there's something cooking. But I'm really not ready to even talk much about II just wanna get get through this season, you know. For the next few months
00:44:43.790 --> 00:44:52.810
Steve Seamands: it's it's been a long time coming. and I I'm I'm just excited because I really believe that this book
00:44:52.970 --> 00:44:58.260
Steve Seamands: is for the Church right now. I pray and hope that
00:44:58.420 --> 00:45:06.150
Steve Seamands: the Lord Jesus will use it to encourage his body to join him, and what he's doing, and what his healing master.
00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:21.099
Andy Miller III: Amen. Well, I I'll often ask a question. Is there more to the story for somebody like? So I'm not. I'm looking to see like, maybe there's something you won't talk about on another. Podcast maybe there's a hobby or something that you have. So is there more to the story of Steve Siemens.
00:45:21.630 --> 00:45:25.140
Steve Seamands: Well, I think so. I
00:45:25.410 --> 00:45:33.349
Steve Seamands: well. we can talk about that figure something out. But yeah,
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:53.890
Andy Miller III: is something with grandkids that you like to do, or is there something like that? That is a part of your life you don't talk about very often. You could share. I like to play pickle ball with my grandkids, a good racquetball player in my day, you know, and so now I've picked up pickle ball, and
00:45:53.930 --> 00:46:23.609
Steve Seamands: we we had a a family vacation recently, and we just had a ball because I could play, and my kids and I, my grandkids now, are most mostly in high school and college. So we just had a ball, you know. So that's a that's a lot of fun for me, you know. But I'm slowing down, and II exercise and walk, etc. But
00:46:23.770 --> 00:46:27.140
Steve Seamands: I'm trying to. I'm trying to learn how to live
00:46:27.160 --> 00:46:35.200
Steve Seamands: within the limits, you know. It's it's somebody said to me recently, and I think it's just really true when you get to be in your I'm in Monday seventies, and
00:46:35.210 --> 00:46:40.930
Steve Seamands: it's no longer so much about time management as it is energy management.
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:53.000
Steve Seamands: Okay? So you you gotta, you gotta do it when you've got energy. And and then you hit a wall sometimes, and there's just nothing left in the tank.
00:46:53.050 --> 00:46:54.579
Steve Seamands: And that's okay.
00:46:54.600 --> 00:47:06.339
Steve Seamands: Somewhere. I'm gonna press. I'm gonna take. Take this bit, that video. And I'm going to keep it for a later time.
00:47:06.750 --> 00:47:24.579
Andy Miller III: That's great. Well, thank you so much for this for writing this book and for your, you know, regular just writing and teaching ministry, Steve. Of course it's meant a lot to me. and and just to be friends with you through these years and the the ways. You've prayed and supported me. So so me. So thanks again, for coming on the podcast.