Andy Miller III
Cover Image for Henry Clay Morrison and the Global Holiness Movement

Henry Clay Morrison and the Global Holiness Movement

September 1, 2022

Most denominations in the holiness tradition are unaware of the way the holiness movement impacted global Christianity. Dr. Oconer gives a helpful analysis of Henry Clay Morrison’s World Tour of Evangelism which is indicative of forgotten aspects of the holiness movement.

Youtube -

Audio -

Apple -

Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page:

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.  You can find out more about Bill’s business at


Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country.

Thanks too to Phil Laeger for the new podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at


Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am so glad that you have come along thanks for checking this out, and if you have enjoyed past episodes of the moral story podcast I would love it.

00:00:41.700 --> 00:00:56.460
Andy Miller III: If you would write a review for us on apple podcast or share a link with friends share on social media subscribe on YouTube however you're getting this that just helps the content that we're producing get a further audience I don't know how all those algorithms work.

00:00:56.490 --> 00:00:57.210
Luther Oconer: online.

00:00:57.360 --> 00:01:05.430
Andy Miller III: But they say that that makes a difference, so I encourage you to check out, we have a great episode today with a new friend of mine and i'm going to introduce him here just a second.

00:01:05.670 --> 00:01:12.870
Andy Miller III: But those of you who are interested in the western holiness tradition, are going to be fascinated i'm telling you fascinated by this subject today.

00:01:13.050 --> 00:01:18.630
Andy Miller III: But first we want you to know that today's podcast comes to you from Wesley biblical seminary where we are developing.

00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:29.310
Andy Miller III: trusted leaders for faithful churches, we do that through a variety of programs and actually in September there's something very important and starting called the Wesley institute it's a program for lay people.

00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:36.750
Andy Miller III: nine month program that there's two versions, there is a Bible track and a theology track and We walked through every book of the Bible.

00:01:37.080 --> 00:01:51.720
Andy Miller III: In the Bible track, and you have seminary professors teaching and all of those sessions and then there's a theology track similar type of trajectory so we love for you to check that out at WB also this podcast is brought to you by wp.

00:01:51.780 --> 00:02:01.380
Andy Miller III: Oh development their CEO Keith waters has helped more than 250 organizations around the country with mission planning says feasibility studies and capital campaigns.

00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:10.050
Andy Miller III: They do a great job job coming alongside of people helping them kind of develop a vision know where they're going in there, helps them get there, so you can find.

00:02:10.590 --> 00:02:21.390
Andy Miller III: Information about WIPO development in the show notes and, finally, I want to make sure you know that this fall as you're kind of getting together your resources, maybe for a Sunday school class or small group curriculum.

00:02:21.690 --> 00:02:33.330
Andy Miller III: I have just released a new study of the book of jude it's six sessions five hours of content that's designed for small groups and Sunday school classes with the discussion guide discussion forum.

00:02:34.230 --> 00:02:38.700
Andy Miller III: Experts talking on this and certain areas and walking through this powerful little book.

00:02:38.910 --> 00:02:49.140
Andy Miller III: That calls us to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, and so you can check that out my website at Andy Miller, the that's Andy Miller, I I calm.

00:02:49.440 --> 00:03:00.630
Andy Miller III: All right, I am excited to welcome in to the podcast and more to story podcast Dr Luther o'connor who serves as the global wesley's theology professor at.

00:03:01.110 --> 00:03:15.450
Andy Miller III: asbury theological seminary, particularly in asbury global, which means that it's a campus that's connected to have not just their campus and wilmore but all of their extension sites around the country, and maybe at some point around the world Luther welcome to podcast.

00:03:15.540 --> 00:03:20.760
Luther Oconer: Yes, thank you Andy thanks for having me in this famous five class of yours.

00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:26.670
Luther Oconer: So uh yeah so and i'm glad to be here and.

00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:31.980
Luther Oconer: And with a you know our conversation particularly.

00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.220
Luther Oconer: On the topic that you asked me to talk about.

00:03:35.880 --> 00:03:37.950
Andy Miller III: yeah we're going to get there just said before we.

00:03:37.950 --> 00:03:45.840
Andy Miller III: can be i've been so impressed and thankful for just a week just knowing each other, even in this year we served on a committee together at the faith.

00:03:46.140 --> 00:03:58.770
Andy Miller III: Once for all delivered, we, the next methodism concept that was a really exciting thing and then we were at a conference together, where we both speaking and i'm just like i'm like man, how did I not know this guy so.

00:03:59.850 --> 00:04:09.300
Andy Miller III: i'm really thankful to get a chance to share but tell tell some folks just briefly about you and how god's i've been at work in your life and even your your calling to serve as Professor and scholar.

00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:17.850
Luther Oconer: Oh yes, i'm currently a professor at the has really theological seminary I just joined the Faculty just last year.

00:04:19.290 --> 00:04:36.570
Luther Oconer: So this is my 10th year of teaching in the spring, you know as a ministry, but prior to that i'd been at united theological seminary for nine years in Dayton Ohio and in fact I just moved here in Orlando Orlando area just less than one.

00:04:37.590 --> 00:04:40.470
Luther Oconer: So we're still we're still have boxes to attack.

00:04:41.940 --> 00:05:04.200
Luther Oconer: yeah but anyway i'm originally from the Philippines I wasn't born and raised there and moved to this country in 2001 when I did my masters at the university and then one bedroom yeah and lattice and New Jersey and then went on to do my PhD there.

00:05:06.810 --> 00:05:07.680
Andy Miller III: Tom joad in there.

00:05:08.070 --> 00:05:17.220
Luther Oconer: I know he was already on the way out when I when I got there, but I got to work with a number of amazing people.

00:05:17.640 --> 00:05:18.240
Luther Oconer: In the.

00:05:18.840 --> 00:05:25.500
Luther Oconer: In the wesleyan studies i'm going to call that cohort that I drew.

00:05:26.580 --> 00:05:29.820
Luther Oconer: And, and so it's been it's been a great journey.

00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:39.360
Luther Oconer: to learn more about Methodist and while I wasn't there, and even to know more about my own heritage as a method is from the Philippines.

00:05:39.900 --> 00:05:45.000
Luther Oconer: yeah yes, yes, I said, did my dissertation, particularly on that.

00:05:46.170 --> 00:05:48.480
Luther Oconer: On that subject matter uh.

00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:52.200
Andy Miller III: yeah was that was it connected to a message, or even the holiness movement.

00:05:52.230 --> 00:05:52.800
Luther Oconer: or yeah it's.

00:05:52.890 --> 00:05:56.280
Luther Oconer: it's it's sort of the intersection between methodism.

00:05:56.760 --> 00:06:02.160
Luther Oconer: A the manifestations of the holiness movement in in mission mission history.

00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:06.690
Luther Oconer: And a little bit of an intersection with pentecostalism.

00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:10.050
Luther Oconer: Pentecostal history, so we have those three going on.

00:06:11.310 --> 00:06:11.970
Luther Oconer: In my study.

00:06:12.930 --> 00:06:15.480
Andy Miller III: Now, a lot of people know like i've had some people on my podcast to.

00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:20.100
Andy Miller III: Talk about what's going on in methodism so I had Keith boy at wc gay.

00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:23.070
Andy Miller III: Recently i'd Robin for a lot of good news.

00:06:23.340 --> 00:06:32.040
Andy Miller III: And there's the significance of what's called the within the United Methodist the central conference is where you are part of the united Methodist church, or just a branch of method is.

00:06:32.190 --> 00:06:48.810
Luther Oconer: A i'm still part of the united Methodist church i'm i'm an ordained elder in the Philippines, because in the Philippines, we did not become autonomous so we're still part of the united Methodist church connection and under the Philippines central conference.

00:06:50.520 --> 00:06:51.000
Luther Oconer: yeah.

00:06:52.530 --> 00:07:02.340
Luther Oconer: So it started in 18 the method, this is the mothership is couple tricks came to the Philippines late 1898 39 1899.

00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:06.330
Luther Oconer: And that's where methodism started there.

00:07:07.830 --> 00:07:16.470
Luther Oconer: And now we're like I think five or six animal conferences all over the country and 300,000 plus united Methodist.

00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:17.370
Luther Oconer: wow.

00:07:17.400 --> 00:07:22.350
Andy Miller III: In the fellow here that 300,000 plus united Methodist in the Philippines.

00:07:22.410 --> 00:07:30.870
Andy Miller III: Yes, wow that is amazing and and so there's a whole system of probably seminaries in schools and.

00:07:31.830 --> 00:07:34.080
Andy Miller III: Even in asbury college in the Philippines.

00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:37.860
Luther Oconer: Yes, there is one, but but no connections with.

00:07:38.940 --> 00:07:45.960
Luther Oconer: With us marine wilmer when we're Kentucky it's just I guess just named after aspiration.

00:07:46.230 --> 00:07:48.690
Luther Oconer: yeah begin with and then a whole number of.

00:07:49.650 --> 00:07:56.940
Luther Oconer: Probably about you know, a dozen colleges, or maybe less than a dozen colleges all over the country.

00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.620
Luther Oconer: And and plenty of kindergarten schools.

00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:03.990
Andy Miller III: yeah interesting.

00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:04.950

00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.460
Andy Miller III: Okay, this is a I didn't tell you how to ask this question so tell me a little bit like as you've come to United States it's.

00:08:11.460 --> 00:08:13.380
Andy Miller III: been 10 years here are longer 10 years.

00:08:13.710 --> 00:08:14.760
Luther Oconer: 20 years plus yeah.

00:08:14.820 --> 00:08:15.510
Andy Miller III: 20 years.

00:08:15.540 --> 00:08:16.080
Luther Oconer: wow yeah.

00:08:16.830 --> 00:08:21.690
Andy Miller III: So tell me about the compare and contrast methodism between the two.

00:08:21.810 --> 00:08:27.960
Luther Oconer: Oh that's an that's an interesting question because I got to encounter that just right off the BAT.

00:08:29.550 --> 00:08:39.270
Luther Oconer: You know, you know sort of suppress the vote when I when I even when I first came in this is a week before 911 and.

00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:43.320
Luther Oconer: Oh wow and a week or two weeks before that in.

00:08:44.490 --> 00:08:51.270
Luther Oconer: And so the the first Sunday the first Sunday, I went to a united Methodist church with what's nearby the campus subdue.

00:08:51.990 --> 00:09:07.020
Luther Oconer: And, of course, naturally, because i'm united methodists I would go to United Methodist church right, so I went there I attended and and Lo and behold the you know the pastor had I think has a doctorate PhD degree.

00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:16.500
Luther Oconer: Whereas I saw was, you know as as he was speaking I was kinda you know, I was already noticing the differences.

00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:24.480
Luther Oconer: wow with the way he preach the message and it felt like you know it felt I felt like an alien.

00:09:25.650 --> 00:09:28.770
Luther Oconer: In in that church I didn't know whether I was in a Methodist church.

00:09:32.400 --> 00:09:40.320
Luther Oconer: And nobody greeted me know what you said hi to me, I went in and I went out and that was it, but I never I never came back.

00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:49.650
Luther Oconer: wow and then I you know, and then a week later, I got in touch with a with a pastor of the vineyard church.

00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:56.010
Luther Oconer: Okay interest on campus and he came and picked me up and then from then on, I started attending a vineyard church.

00:09:56.670 --> 00:09:57.210

00:09:59.130 --> 00:10:00.870
Luther Oconer: Because I felt much more at home.

00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:09.060
Luther Oconer: yeah with with the type of worship, that they had at the end, the vineyard church that's the spirituality the the warm.

00:10:10.500 --> 00:10:18.030
Luther Oconer: I felt a much more of a connection there than with the United methodists traits that I went to.

00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:25.530
Luther Oconer: yeah um so yeah so so that's an area that vineyard church for probably about seven years.

00:10:28.470 --> 00:10:32.460
Luther Oconer: But almost in in and out because I was also serving another church.

00:10:35.190 --> 00:10:38.910
Luther Oconer: A non denominational denominational church leader and as a youth pastor.

00:10:40.140 --> 00:10:45.930
Luther Oconer: But I was always been connected with with that being your church more than I was connected with the United vested.

00:10:47.550 --> 00:10:49.020
Luther Oconer: Interest, so you have to fire me yeah.

00:10:49.710 --> 00:11:01.260
Andy Miller III: As I visited, you know as we've come to in Jackson area visiting other churches to see what's going on, I i've been interesting like the one of the most Wesley and messages that i've heard as come at a charismatic church.

00:11:01.710 --> 00:11:02.160
Luther Oconer: Oh yeah.

00:11:02.430 --> 00:11:02.940
Luther Oconer: Yes.

00:11:02.970 --> 00:11:12.150
Andy Miller III: Yes, interesting like to be truly connected to the identity of the movement, I might need to be something that is outside of the institutions of.

00:11:12.150 --> 00:11:24.840
Luther Oconer: Yes, yes, exactly, and that kinda you know that kind of made me realize that in the United States in the Philippines, we were more charismatic Okay, we were more charismatic Pentecostal leaning.

00:11:26.430 --> 00:11:27.660
Luther Oconer: And you know whether this.

00:11:29.130 --> 00:11:30.000
Luther Oconer: In the US.

00:11:31.380 --> 00:11:38.670
Luther Oconer: But, of course, as you know, as my knowledge of the United States in the US kind of expanded and more people I realized that there, there were pockets.

00:11:40.110 --> 00:11:51.060
Luther Oconer: Of the charismatic expressions also united Madison in the US and so just so happened that the ones that i've encountered when I was in New Jersey weren't like that.

00:11:53.160 --> 00:11:53.760
Luther Oconer: And then, when we.

00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:54.600
Luther Oconer: carry a.

00:11:54.630 --> 00:11:55.050
Luther Oconer: medic.

00:11:55.290 --> 00:12:02.790
Andy Miller III: Yes, mean it doesn't mean like emphasizing healing speaking in tongues or just kind of an awareness of the spirit.

00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:10.470
Luther Oconer: Yes, more of the awareness of spirit and the worship style, particularly with you know praise and worship.

00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:21.090
Luther Oconer: praise and worship, music and, of course, the language of the spirit, you know, like listen the in in the in the language.

00:12:22.410 --> 00:12:31.020
Luther Oconer: Of the Church, you can hear people talking about the Holy Spirit the spiritual life so we get that a lot in the in the Philippines.

00:12:31.410 --> 00:12:37.470
Luther Oconer: yeah and partly because of that history as well, so i'm gonna probably you know get a chance to talk more about.

00:12:38.040 --> 00:12:38.670

00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:42.300
Andy Miller III: Your research is yes that's why I love.

00:12:42.750 --> 00:12:51.810
Andy Miller III: I love it when our research interests or writing or preaching truly is can connected to our life now, before we go too much further, I do want to mention i'm not seeing your screen.

00:12:52.830 --> 00:13:00.750
Andy Miller III: Your screen is frozen, but which might be okay it's and people on YouTube we might have to deal with me if you're looking for a movement but yeah let's try and start it.

00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:01.440
Luther Oconer: There you go.

00:13:01.650 --> 00:13:01.980
Luther Oconer: Okay.

00:13:02.400 --> 00:13:03.000
Andy Miller III: cool oh good.

00:13:03.180 --> 00:13:05.880
Andy Miller III: Okay, so this is interesting to your dissertation.

00:13:06.030 --> 00:13:09.990
Andy Miller III: was on holiness holiness movement in the Philippines.

00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:19.140
Andy Miller III: Yes, that then gave you an avenue to think of a very particular event of a key holiness movement leave your Henry clay.

00:13:19.230 --> 00:13:20.430
Luther Oconer: More actually yeah.

00:13:20.730 --> 00:13:29.190
Andy Miller III: Who is the founder of asbury seminary it fascinating that you're there, of course, and then also the was the President of as very college at that time, but.

00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:29.430
Luther Oconer: You know.

00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:42.390
Andy Miller III: People might not know they might know him for that, but this you have, this is a gigantic big your head spokesperson of this theological perspective in United that perspective behind a magazine called the Pentecostal Harold.

00:13:42.660 --> 00:13:46.740
Andy Miller III: yeah you you found something very interesting.

00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:57.480
Andy Miller III: About I had heard about this about his world tour of evangelism but talk to me about what interested you in that tour.

00:13:57.990 --> 00:14:08.640
Luther Oconer: yeah because first person for mothers, because it's it's something that kind of you know I doing my research for my dissertation I i've kind of briefly intersected with that.

00:14:09.420 --> 00:14:28.830
Luther Oconer: With Henry clay Morris and particularly his store because he went to the Philippines aspiring tour but, but he wasn't in the Philippines, for only a few days, but um but his visit their made quiet I didn't quite quick quite a quite an impact.

00:14:30.630 --> 00:14:32.640
Luther Oconer: In methodism in the Philippines.

00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:43.470
Luther Oconer: You know the story, I would say, one of our story one apart foremost for you and my list in the Philippines, our first the first method is Filipino math is a bishop.

00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:50.730
Luther Oconer: I would make this name is Denise Alejandro he went last year as well, but he made the claim that.

00:14:53.160 --> 00:15:00.030
Luther Oconer: that's how that morrison's visits in the Philippines among the mothers in the Philippines made Holiness the bird fly.

00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:09.600
Luther Oconer: Filipino Methodist it started a whole new spiritual culture in the Philippines that lasted until.

00:15:09.900 --> 00:15:13.680
Luther Oconer: A worldwide Second World War second and beyond.

00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:19.410
Luther Oconer: So that's what kind of caught my attention so that's why I look into that.

00:15:20.910 --> 00:15:23.850
Luther Oconer: And and, later on, there was this.

00:15:25.530 --> 00:15:40.200
Luther Oconer: There was this opportunity at a conference I honestly I ar to present something on the intersections between the holiness movement and pentecostalism that's when I started to look more deeply into.

00:15:41.430 --> 00:15:59.700
Luther Oconer: morrison's world tour of evangelists and which kind of allowed me to see much more of that you know to see where he went a different conference he went to how a minister, the message they preach and its impact in those different countries today, you went to a within a span of 11 months.

00:16:00.210 --> 00:16:01.380
Luther Oconer: amazing yeah.

00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:03.180
Andy Miller III: Very now now.

00:16:03.390 --> 00:16:04.470
Andy Miller III: You highlight.

00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.310
Andy Miller III: That is yeah properly call it's not properly a world tour because.

00:16:08.310 --> 00:16:09.660
Luther Oconer: Yes, no maybe.

00:16:10.050 --> 00:16:11.190
Andy Miller III: Like a world.

00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:14.160
Luther Oconer: Where do we go to yes first he went to England.

00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:21.810
Luther Oconer: And and and basically just do that you know just do a tourist touristy stuff.

00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:25.260
Luther Oconer: yeah like a like a pilgrimage top of men of the sites in.

00:16:25.260 --> 00:16:26.430
Andy Miller III: England as well.

00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:37.620
Luther Oconer: yeah you might as well do that and then he went to Palestine, you know the Holy Land and again the touristy stuff but really Those are just a segue in for him to go into India.

00:16:39.510 --> 00:16:40.350
Luther Oconer: In India.

00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:45.120
Luther Oconer: methodism had quite a big presence there.

00:16:46.050 --> 00:16:49.650
Luther Oconer: A particular yes, this was in 19 1910.

00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:50.580
Andy Miller III: Okay gotcha.

00:16:50.610 --> 00:16:54.810
Luther Oconer: yeah yeah yeah he left the US in July 1909.

00:16:56.760 --> 00:16:59.610
Luther Oconer: And then he came back in around June.

00:17:01.110 --> 00:17:15.570
Luther Oconer: yeah until 19 them yeah so but anyway, he he got into India and spent I think five about five weeks in India, particularly in the mission stations of the Methodist episcopal church.

00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:21.270
Luther Oconer: And then, after that went through Rangoon Dallas Burma, or Myanmar today.

00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:28.380
Luther Oconer: And then synced up or the Philippines and then went to and then went to China.

00:17:29.580 --> 00:17:31.860
Luther Oconer: He went to he went to Japan.

00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.110
Luther Oconer: And then Korea.

00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:35.970
Andy Miller III: interesting.

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:42.000
Luther Oconer: Yes, quite interesting and then what's interesting is you know he he didn't just go to.

00:17:43.350 --> 00:17:49.200
Luther Oconer: visit missionaries from the medicine episcopal church he went to see missionaries in.

00:17:49.230 --> 00:17:50.940
Luther Oconer: From the Methodist episcopal church south.

00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:54.420
Luther Oconer: yeah, particularly when he was in Korea.

00:17:55.800 --> 00:18:04.170
Luther Oconer: He also went and ministered to missionary or you know, to free the free Methodist church, so I had.

00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:09.750
Luther Oconer: A ymca and and what else.

00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:19.320
Luther Oconer: And rms the oriental missionary society what were, these are all you know, some of them are what we would call today mainline churches.

00:18:19.320 --> 00:18:21.150
Luther Oconer: Some you know.

00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:40.230
Luther Oconer: Some would be what would become like the all Ms well, it was a missionary organization in the radical holiness sense, but what kind of this shows us is the holiness movement was kind of present in different denominations at that time.

00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:50.700
Luther Oconer: I always put it this way it's like kind of like the charismatic movement today there's no particular denomination that claims ownership to it, but it just kind of.

00:18:51.870 --> 00:18:55.860
Luther Oconer: feel it's just kindly intact really operating.

00:18:57.600 --> 00:19:00.420
Luther Oconer: Within the line I know i'll say denominational lines.

00:19:00.510 --> 00:19:00.780
Luther Oconer: Right.

00:19:01.620 --> 00:19:03.240
Andy Miller III: And even resisted it in time.

00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:04.200
Luther Oconer: Yes, yes.

00:19:04.770 --> 00:19:11.940
Andy Miller III: Yes, it's interesting to that they think that this this is so connected more periodical is called.

00:19:12.090 --> 00:19:14.640
Luther Oconer: The Pentecostal cycling exactly.

00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:23.070
Andy Miller III: The founder of my movement in the Wesley and the Salvation Army is famous for a song is singing we want another Pentecost.

00:19:23.100 --> 00:19:23.760
Luther Oconer: Right and it's like.

00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:26.550
Andy Miller III: and also this move away.

00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:28.590
Andy Miller III: From the nomination not.

00:19:28.590 --> 00:19:29.760
Andy Miller III: Thinking of themselves as.

00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:32.250
Andy Miller III: The nation's though sociologically.

00:19:32.790 --> 00:19:34.230
Andy Miller III: er functions a denomination.

00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:44.550
Luther Oconer: yeah because that's the day when we say Pentecostal people see it around the static to mean the Pentecostal movement or listen to the modern Pentecostal movement that started in 1906.

00:19:45.030 --> 00:19:58.890
Luther Oconer: Are the loser revival in Los Angeles, but what people don't know is that this Pentecostal movement is much more earlier than that it's you know it's probably a byproduct of the holiness movement.

00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.910
Luther Oconer: yeah, particularly in the 1890s when there was.

00:20:03.510 --> 00:20:04.110
Luther Oconer: A shift.

00:20:05.550 --> 00:20:15.420
Luther Oconer: In in the way the wholeness movements articulated the adoption of holiness and and they begin to be equated with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

00:20:16.020 --> 00:20:18.540
Luther Oconer: So, so the teachings on Holiness.

00:20:19.050 --> 00:20:24.030
Luther Oconer: And we just kind of was really a what we would call a Methodist and the grand the positive methodism.

00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:28.860
Luther Oconer: steak and more Pentecostal motive.

00:20:29.850 --> 00:20:37.830
Luther Oconer: In the way people explained it explain it more in the in the vein of you know, the language found in the book of acts.

00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:52.650
Luther Oconer: Right so and so people started equating it, you know, especially the experience of entire sanctification it was equated with the experience of the spiritual life or the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

00:20:53.730 --> 00:20:59.250
Luther Oconer: And so you would see a lot of holiness folks started talking about the entire sanctification that way.

00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:07.230
Luther Oconer: So that's why it's no accident what bring example in the case of morrison and others, at least in the Methodist tradition.

00:21:07.770 --> 00:21:14.190
Luther Oconer: They would have Why would they what they would call kind of cost on meetings with our this for revival meetings.

00:21:14.910 --> 00:21:27.720
Luther Oconer: That they were the hall, and they would call them Pentecostal because the main message was for people with experience that the Pentecostal blessing yeah, but when you see a Pentecostal blessing why they really mean this entire sanctification.

00:21:28.590 --> 00:21:32.310
Luther Oconer: Last a manifestation of power.

00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:41.730
Luther Oconer: You know, for for a mission or ministry, so you So you see those themes kind of become become quite dominant in the 1890s.

00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:54.930
Luther Oconer: And, and so the fact that the morrison change the name on the paper is paper, I think, well, I think matter, these are all methods to do Pentecostal Harold.

00:21:55.980 --> 00:22:03.120
Luther Oconer: seems to, or at least illustrates the fact that you have there was a shift within within the wholeness movement.

00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:07.980
Luther Oconer: towards towards that what I would call Pentecostal.

00:22:09.210 --> 00:22:18.960
Luther Oconer: Holiness, and so that's why you know that was the dominant theme that you will find in in the hall is movement and and it manifested.

00:22:19.410 --> 00:22:24.270
Luther Oconer: Among the missionaries, who went to the mission field in different denominations.

00:22:25.230 --> 00:22:37.920
Luther Oconer: They all you know they were very they were deeply influenced by the by the holiness movement, particularly through all this revival revivals because you know, most of them got they're called admission build in a revival.

00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:39.390

00:22:41.010 --> 00:22:51.270
Luther Oconer: A revival meeting experience you know Bella Casa blessing, and so it's you know it's not an accident have to see them to see the accounts.

00:22:51.930 --> 00:23:03.930
Luther Oconer: At least, if you look at the diary or a journal rewards there's a lot of that language going on them talking about the baptism of the Holy Ghost talking about the spiritual drive and it's all because of that influence.

00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:20.460
Luther Oconer: yeah uh and you find across the board in from folks from different denominations sometimes it's hard to make the distinction, you know among this focus but but, really, if you look at them they're just reading the same books, they just.

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.460
Andy Miller III: West, we are.

00:23:26.790 --> 00:23:35.100
Andy Miller III: Literally saying now pan Wesley and it's particularly with United Methodist quite frankly falling apart, become the new.

00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:38.760
Andy Miller III: So yeah there are united Methodist churches are becoming free Methodist.

00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:50.460
Andy Miller III: Global method until we're thinking like so, for instance, I had your colleague, my friend, Jonathan powers come on talk about the new pan Western him, though, but reclaim morrison was doing all of this.

00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:51.150
Andy Miller III: Yes, through.

00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:53.010
Andy Miller III: The Pentecostal Harold which.

00:23:53.430 --> 00:24:02.250
Andy Miller III: I always find it interesting that there's still a remnant of the Herald laughter I said it's not not to the same extent you have been studying more than myself.

00:24:02.550 --> 00:24:07.680
Andy Miller III: I realized that the asbury seminary magazine is called the Herald.

00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:08.610
Luther Oconer: Yes, yes.

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.660
Andy Miller III: remnant kind of.

00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:10.350
Luther Oconer: That.

00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:11.100
Andy Miller III: yeah still.

00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:16.410
Andy Miller III: Harold, so I think that's that's interesting, but never looks like what it was it united, it was.

00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:19.620
Andy Miller III: Was um morrison's movement, I mean.

00:24:21.030 --> 00:24:22.260
Andy Miller III: I wouldn't say it's his movement.

00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:26.310
Andy Miller III: yeah, of course, and if theologically I want to think of as the work of the spirit, like.

00:24:26.310 --> 00:24:31.350
Andy Miller III: it's god's work is what God wants to see happen in the world, at the same time there.

00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:33.810
Andy Miller III: The role of the institution.

00:24:33.840 --> 00:24:39.240
Andy Miller III: is interesting because it wasn't it wasn't an institution uniting these groups.

00:24:39.270 --> 00:24:44.640
Andy Miller III: Globally, yeah was morrison's paper is that it.

00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:51.420
Luther Oconer: yeah I think you're correct and extend to smarten speed were there were a number of papers as well uh you know.

00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:54.930
Luther Oconer: With the homeless movement was quite huge during that.

00:24:55.110 --> 00:25:06.030
Luther Oconer: Time and there were a number of folks you know doing their own thing publishing their own papers and and morrison seems pretty awesome Harold was you know, probably would be under top level.

00:25:06.270 --> 00:25:16.950
Luther Oconer: or top tier right right of all those papers, because it's you know because of this, I would say, you know, he was more ecumenical I listen back end up on the city just kind of.

00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:25.800
Luther Oconer: Women in the store it's worked for up evangelism ministry to that because he just went from one language to another very much welcome you know.

00:25:27.030 --> 00:25:30.480
Luther Oconer: And because of that, you know it's kind of industry it's it's his influence.

00:25:31.620 --> 00:25:32.790
Luther Oconer: And popularity.

00:25:34.350 --> 00:25:44.340
Luther Oconer: Within the fan Wesley and you know connection of that time, and also because I think the message you know people just resonated with a message.

00:25:45.930 --> 00:25:53.040
Luther Oconer: In and so it's easy for him to to just kind of crisscross from one boundary to another.

00:25:54.690 --> 00:25:56.880
Luther Oconer: yeah yeah yeah.

00:25:57.540 --> 00:26:00.420
Andy Miller III: Let me pause this, I want to get back to the historical piece in.

00:26:00.600 --> 00:26:01.680
Luther Oconer: Here um.

00:26:01.710 --> 00:26:04.680
Andy Miller III: But there's also, I think you and I get excited about this.

00:26:05.040 --> 00:26:07.500
Andy Miller III: Yes, just like reality.

00:26:07.770 --> 00:26:08.190
Andy Miller III: yeah.

00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:09.240
Luther Oconer: it's exactly like.

00:26:09.330 --> 00:26:20.490
Andy Miller III: There might there might have been some problems in the holiness movement out that time tell me about your own experience with this like this type of Pentecostal blessing.

00:26:20.520 --> 00:26:21.720
Luther Oconer: yeah exactly you guys are.

00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.420
Andy Miller III: biographical like, why does this matter to you.

00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.300
Luther Oconer: yeah if not i'm going to ask that question.

00:26:27.300 --> 00:26:45.000
Luther Oconer: Because you know people would say when I was a drew you know they would tell us you know dissertations are really biographical and and that's really true for myself, because my dissertation wasn't really connected to my own experience to my own quest to understand methodism.

00:26:46.110 --> 00:26:49.500
Luther Oconer: In the Philippines, and particularly to the lens of my own experience.

00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:56.040
Luther Oconer: Which is way back in 1997 that that was the year when I entered the ministry when I decided.

00:26:56.670 --> 00:27:17.160
Luther Oconer: I was an engineer at that time I was in junior engineer working for a up and racing telecommunications company in the in Manila, and I was working there for for three years in that field and Lo and behold, I I got an experience of what I would call a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:20.940
Luther Oconer: was at an event called alverson gave.

00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:23.250
Luther Oconer: Your conference.

00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:29.220
Luther Oconer: wow So this was a this was you know this was the beginning.

00:27:30.090 --> 00:27:38.970
Luther Oconer: Of a charismatic movement in the in the streets in the Philippines, where we started about 1994 but then started to just kind of explode.

00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:57.210
Luther Oconer: and reach the young people, and so this was a gathering of young people metal this united Methodist young people about 800 of us in a place called bag your city in in the Philippines and I wasn't there you know at the time when I was getting going through my own spiritual crisis.

00:27:58.350 --> 00:28:09.690
Luther Oconer: Because I felt that you know I I once I began entering the field of engineering working in the telecom sperm, I found myself becoming less Christian.

00:28:11.970 --> 00:28:12.420
Luther Oconer: kind of.

00:28:12.870 --> 00:28:18.360
Luther Oconer: Dirty go away from the faith in a way that I became so so busy and fixated on success.

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:20.550
Luther Oconer: You know, career.

00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:29.430
Luther Oconer: But then I saw that having you know, having a toll on my spot by on my own walk with God.

00:28:30.450 --> 00:28:35.880
Luther Oconer: My own spirituality and it's been manifesting in my life and I didn't want it, I didn't like it.

00:28:37.320 --> 00:28:48.030
Luther Oconer: And so I got to a point where you know I felt like I was at the back of the wall and with no nowhere else to go and and I said, you know.

00:28:49.200 --> 00:29:04.680
Luther Oconer: When I heard that there was this gathering of young people in this elvers Gala event I said i'm gonna go there, what i'm going to tell my boss i'm gonna you know i'm gonna go there and he better allows, allow me to get the santana i'm about to die, so to speak.

00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:13.890
Luther Oconer: And so Lo and behold, I got to that event and just the first night boom, you know experienced something.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:20.280
Luther Oconer: That was kind of out of the ordinary allison in the middle of this sense.

00:29:22.290 --> 00:29:26.730
Luther Oconer: I found myself on the floor and then I started laughing on the floor.

00:29:30.510 --> 00:29:41.280
Luther Oconer: yeah I just felt this waves and waves of this divine presence that, then I started laughing actually when they told me, I was, I was the first person to do that.

00:29:44.760 --> 00:29:56.310
Luther Oconer: But it was just waves up on wage and I was there for more than an hour no laughing crying you know, and you know but but I, but you know it was it was amazing I felt like I was going to happen.

00:29:57.510 --> 00:30:01.650
Luther Oconer: But then one thing led to another, in that event that it became clear to me.

00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:04.890
Luther Oconer: That, I was not where God wanted me.

00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:21.390
Luther Oconer: And because Prior to that, even as early as in when I was in elementary and high school people were always telling me I wasn't going to become a pastor I already had a call to ministry, but, but then after finishing College as I run away from it.

00:30:22.560 --> 00:30:29.850
Luther Oconer: I run over on the FAR and so so basically this event, made it clear to me that I was called to the ministry.

00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:41.640
Luther Oconer: So it did it made God real to meet so real to me that there was no way I was gonna go home and not be changed my experience.

00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:50.310
Luther Oconer: And so they're in right there and then the Lord impressed in my heart that I should you know I should fulfill my promise.

00:30:51.570 --> 00:31:02.460
Luther Oconer: So I did and they're made the result that i'm gonna quit my job, and after that you know returned back to Manila and, personally, you know first day at work.

00:31:03.570 --> 00:31:05.730
Luther Oconer: I spoke to my boss and told him i'm gonna quit.

00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:13.710
Luther Oconer: wow and I was I wasn't gonna become a sister, and so I did, and there were a number of young people who did the same.

00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:23.940
Luther Oconer: I was just talking about the United Methodist church and so in the Philippines, when you say you want to become a pastor they appoint to right away to a church.

00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:31.380
Luther Oconer: So a few months later, this was February 1997 by June I was pastor in a church.

00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:38.340
Luther Oconer: And even and even that Church was prophesied in that event, that I will be in this church, the same church.

00:31:40.800 --> 00:31:43.650
Luther Oconer: It was a church by the highway and I wasn't going to church by the highway.

00:31:44.370 --> 00:31:49.560
Luther Oconer: Exactly yes amazing yes absolutely build, and so I was there.

00:31:50.820 --> 00:31:56.280
Luther Oconer: But then, of course, given my experience, you know this charismatic experience, naturally I would carry that with me.

00:31:57.540 --> 00:31:59.940
Luther Oconer: And that costs a lot of problems.

00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:11.850
Luther Oconer: In my church, you know it was awesome because the church went to appear to be viable we became more Pentecostal then and nearby assembly of God church.

00:32:13.770 --> 00:32:15.600
Luther Oconer: And this was a united Methodist church.

00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:17.880
Luther Oconer: But then uh.

00:32:18.270 --> 00:32:32.400
Luther Oconer: You know all their pastors within the district in my district started, not this thing and that's that's when the persecution started, you know they started they started sending folks to kind of look like me, are kinda.

00:32:33.060 --> 00:32:40.620
Luther Oconer: I look on me and total to spy on me, so to speak, and then that would eventually get me in trouble.

00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:59.190
Luther Oconer: wow a later on, after a year, and because I became so identified as a Pentecostal and I was told that there's no that's not allowed in the United Methodist church it got to a point that uh that I was.

00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:04.410
Luther Oconer: I gotta me and two other pastors we we we were.

00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:14.640
Luther Oconer: We got you know we got there we were put in a meeting with the with our deacon what we call this the committee on ministries.

00:33:16.740 --> 00:33:21.390
Luther Oconer: And and and they recommended that they would charge us with a charge of on offense.

00:33:22.530 --> 00:33:29.730
Luther Oconer: In our book of discipline for dissemination of documents, contrary to the doctrine of the united Methodist church because of our pentecostalism.

00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:36.510
Luther Oconer: that's basically what it is, and so I asked them, you know what What did we do that, you know that's.

00:33:37.800 --> 00:33:45.390
Luther Oconer: that's not compatible with the dominance of the programmatic is the magistrate so the UFC and they couldn't tell me anything.

00:33:46.410 --> 00:33:55.710
Luther Oconer: But all they knew was you know what we're doing a snap method this, and so, and so that's kind of down a signal for me the beginning of.

00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:01.620
Luther Oconer: By the way, nothing happened to us, even though they recommend this to be.

00:34:03.390 --> 00:34:12.990
Luther Oconer: To be charged the visa prevent for the reverse that will come annual conference and it didn't happen, but you know it kind of mark for me the beginning of a search.

00:34:14.130 --> 00:34:27.360
Luther Oconer: To kind of find out more about my heritage as a method this and to understand my experience and say because I when I began to do retreats about methodism in England and so all of this accounts of revivals during my time wisely.

00:34:28.680 --> 00:34:33.330
Luther Oconer: And then American method, the same, and so, and so that kind of led me to.

00:34:34.710 --> 00:34:42.330
Luther Oconer: lead me to wanted to study more, and so I said okay i'm gonna what i'll do is probably I need to go to the US.

00:34:44.160 --> 00:34:59.820
Luther Oconer: and get to the bottom of this and learn more about Wesley learn more learn more about Methodist, and so I did the year after that I was, I was a drew I know finally is no not the year after that I went to seminary percent then after graduating a seminary in the Philippines.

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.250
Luther Oconer: I went through.

00:35:03.930 --> 00:35:08.730
Luther Oconer: And within pent up you know being there for a master's only for a year, a year or.

00:35:08.790 --> 00:35:09.990
Andy Miller III: Two okay interesting.

00:35:10.080 --> 00:35:11.730
Luther Oconer: yeah and and and.

00:35:12.870 --> 00:35:18.300
Luther Oconer: And then Lo and behold got open the doors for me to to move into the PhD Program.

00:35:19.350 --> 00:35:26.910
Luther Oconer: Through and my research question was Okay, if there was this powerful revival during the time of Wesley.

00:35:27.510 --> 00:35:40.080
Luther Oconer: And, being an American methodism and then so my question was was there anything like that in the magistrates in the Philippines early history so that's what led me to this basically this research.

00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:54.570
Luther Oconer: So that led me to know more about the holiness movement what was what was the main thing that was happening during that period when the missionaries came to the Philippines, what was the main thing when I realized, it was the holiness movement.

00:35:55.050 --> 00:35:55.230
Luther Oconer: yeah.

00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:57.450
Luther Oconer: That was that was really the thing.

00:35:59.220 --> 00:36:07.710
Luther Oconer: And so that led me to learn more about that, and this intersection with pentecostalism and then, when I look at.

00:36:09.630 --> 00:36:16.080
Luther Oconer: You know the was I wasn't there I drew that that's where the united by districts archives is located.

00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.290
Luther Oconer: Right and so all of the missionary.

00:36:19.650 --> 00:36:20.880
Luther Oconer: All of the journals.

00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:26.490
Luther Oconer: conference journals in the Philippines can be found there you have the missionary.

00:36:28.380 --> 00:36:31.530
Luther Oconer: You know the missionary archival missionary materials.

00:36:33.120 --> 00:36:41.520
Luther Oconer: they're enjoying their diaries so I was able to piece together all of this narrative and found that you know.

00:36:42.810 --> 00:36:49.170
Luther Oconer: I realized that, as I was looking at their accounts I realized that yes, we did have the same thing in the Philippines.

00:36:51.540 --> 00:36:53.730
Luther Oconer: In this church, you know.

00:36:54.450 --> 00:37:04.380
Luther Oconer: And they were having what they would call Pentecostal meetings or you know they would call the Pentecostal and and there was a lot of powerful accounts.

00:37:06.450 --> 00:37:11.430
Luther Oconer: You know, and it was not just a footnote in history, it was.

00:37:12.600 --> 00:37:17.670
Luther Oconer: It was common interest mainstream they do it every summer.

00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:36.630
Luther Oconer: But then I realized that that you know, the best way to understand methodism in the Philippines is through the lens of politics revivals because if you look at through that lens you'll be able to understand all of the major event that and in its history.

00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:51.060
Luther Oconer: it's almost somewhat connected to all of this main events that we've known for so for so long in the Philippines, but there's, no, no one has attempted to do you see interpretative lengths.

00:37:51.840 --> 00:38:02.190
Luther Oconer: To stay them and so now I got this tool, you know the holiness revivals as my interpretative lengths to understand the history better.

00:38:03.810 --> 00:38:06.240
Luther Oconer: And so, so that was my dissertation.

00:38:09.240 --> 00:38:10.980
Andy Miller III: In how it blends with your own party.

00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:14.130
Andy Miller III: yeah I felt like to be me I kind of felt like oh.

00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:15.270
Luther Oconer: I, as I see, I see a.

00:38:15.270 --> 00:38:16.140
Andy Miller III: Question like should I see.

00:38:17.190 --> 00:38:17.520
Luther Oconer: me.

00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:19.500
Andy Miller III: But it blends so.

00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:22.170
Andy Miller III: Well, with something that is true and real.

00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:36.990
Andy Miller III: And yes, that's what we emphasize here Wesley biblical seminary is actually we it's a in our faculty manual that once a semester everybody every Professor will testify to god's spirit work in their life.

00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:54.750
Andy Miller III: Then the role of sanctify and grace and not just progressively sanctify us and how that comes in specific moments of crisis and then to call punch students to as jealousy says in scripture a salvation seek it now, and until that that's that's a requirement as me as the.

00:38:56.490 --> 00:38:56.850
Luther Oconer: Second.

00:38:56.910 --> 00:38:59.970
Andy Miller III: is not that it has to like be a turn key result.

00:39:00.120 --> 00:39:06.930
Andy Miller III: Man we emphasize the role of story in that indeed amazingly to discovery more in our research.

00:39:07.050 --> 00:39:21.210
Andy Miller III: Now i'm I one thing I found helpful your paper and this comes out in a book on holiness in Pentecostal studies edited by David bundy and Jordan hammond and I am fascinated by the distinctions you make.

00:39:21.330 --> 00:39:22.290
Luther Oconer: A lot of people don't get.

00:39:22.350 --> 00:39:31.530
Andy Miller III: get this between the Catholic Saint holiness movement, the radical holiness movement and Wesley and holiness movement.

00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:34.830
Andy Miller III: Yes, can you help me understand those distinctions.

00:39:35.040 --> 00:39:44.880
Luther Oconer: Yes, beginning with let's begin with the wesleyan holiness movement or less Wesley and Holland expression that would be, you know that would be the classic Wesley understanding.

00:39:45.480 --> 00:40:01.590
Luther Oconer: You know that's that would be will usually call eradication is because in Wesley We find this you know in this understanding of Holiness, who is when he talks about entire sanctification of the possibility of the eradication of the sinful nature.

00:40:02.100 --> 00:40:02.310

00:40:03.540 --> 00:40:18.420
Luther Oconer: So what we see in worse is this optimism optimism of grace the possibility that the sinful nature can be can be totally overcome again, partly because of this new mythology he.

00:40:18.630 --> 00:40:25.470
Luther Oconer: You know his soccer geology is understanding of salvation is closely linked to his understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit.

00:40:26.850 --> 00:40:28.620
Luther Oconer: So I think so that I think that kind of.

00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:41.310
Luther Oconer: gives you know helps us distinguish methodism from pentecostalism because pentecostalism slowly now when you hear about new mythology it's mostly about the supernatural stuff you know healing and all of that.

00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:48.060
Luther Oconer: But with West the the new mythological stuff is mostly ingrained in his solitary ology.

00:40:49.140 --> 00:40:58.920
Luther Oconer: And that allows you to have more much more optimism there in the possibility of the eradication of a sinful nature, but then you move on to.

00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:01.800
Luther Oconer: You will want to the classic.

00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.280
Luther Oconer: yeah the kids classic movement it's much more of a.

00:41:06.390 --> 00:41:16.170
Luther Oconer: it's more of a middle way with when the the wesleyan holiness understanding and the reformed understanding of Holiness, because in the reform understanding.

00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:23.550
Luther Oconer: there's this understanding that you know the sinful nature cannot be overcome, it cannot be eradicated.

00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:25.380
Luther Oconer: You know.

00:41:26.520 --> 00:41:26.970
Luther Oconer: So.

00:41:27.030 --> 00:41:28.680
Andy Miller III: There, so you know lessened like.

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.610
Luther Oconer: Our lesson yes right yeah yes all expressing yeah.

00:41:32.700 --> 00:41:33.210
Andy Miller III: Even though.

00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:34.050

00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:36.870
Luther Oconer: Yes, yeah.

00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:40.980
Andy Miller III: yeah exactly not a saint simultaneously Center right.

00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:49.590
Luther Oconer: Yes, yes, and then the list for the Lutheran sense there's this understanding the ones are justified already fully sanctified.

00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:50.400
Luther Oconer: You know.

00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:59.670
Luther Oconer: Right, but then there's also that understanding of sanctification in there, since that you're not going to that that the sinful nature will never be overcome, I listened to reform sense.

00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:02.700
Luther Oconer: And, but then.

00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:16.020
Luther Oconer: You know, but then the Catholic movement seems to be a middle way via media between between that reform, understanding and the eradication understanding in the wesleyan holiness sense.

00:42:16.740 --> 00:42:30.660
Luther Oconer: By see by agreeing or by acknowledging that, yes, sin cannot be cannot be totally you know eradicated, but, but it can be suppressed.

00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:32.490
Andy Miller III: Right right right.

00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:42.480
Luther Oconer: So, so the key words it's not built in the lesson and all that it's eradication in in the Catholic understanding it's about suppression, because, like you're suppressing.

00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:52.410
Luther Oconer: And, and one of the ways I explained the distinction is this illustration used by team stall barn Bishop team stubborn, he was.

00:42:53.670 --> 00:43:01.080
Luther Oconer: One of our early we went through the Bishop who founded the Madison Madison in the Philippines, you know the amazing beings from yeah from India.

00:43:02.250 --> 00:43:05.910
Luther Oconer: And he's amanda bishop, but he was more up as classic.

00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:19.770
Luther Oconer: person okay uh and he wrote a book the tricks of Pentecost we landed here on this book published in 18 8099 is a matter of this vision, but he wrote a book on the church on Pentecost.

00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:31.890
Luther Oconer: Basically, talking about all the rest, but classic Holiness, and then and then he CITES an illustration there, whereby he talks about a farmer.

00:43:33.240 --> 00:43:42.690
Luther Oconer: Having a conversation with another farmer about you know, having we'd seen this garden, you know you know he plans and then we'll turn up and then the the other farmer said.

00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:45.150
Luther Oconer: You know what.

00:43:47.070 --> 00:43:47.460
Luther Oconer: If.

00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:51.000
Luther Oconer: You can actually eradicate.

00:43:52.830 --> 00:43:55.350
Luther Oconer: Those leads if you just.

00:43:56.730 --> 00:44:01.020
Luther Oconer: You know if you pick up the roads pull them out, you know.

00:44:02.370 --> 00:44:16.260
Luther Oconer: And, and you know and never come back and I can like that basically that's kind of shows and Wesley and holiness understand it, but then another guy showed up and said, you know why that's you know that's administration, my friends.

00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:22.230
Luther Oconer: Because if you pull them out they're gonna come back again, you know.

00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:26.940
Luther Oconer: I forgot to mention the guy the guy was talking about.

00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:41.310
Luther Oconer: You know, burning them there you go burning they're not pulling them up burning them yeah burning them so that's the Wesley and harness understanding, but then the third guy comes, and this is the classic guy and he said, you know that's a bad illustration, my friend.

00:44:42.330 --> 00:44:49.830
Luther Oconer: You know, yes, you burn them, but then this and then come back to what motivates my proposition, why did you keep the fire burning.

00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.430
Luther Oconer: that's that's a pressure, you know.

00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:57.150
Luther Oconer: Though so that's the basic understanding.

00:44:57.510 --> 00:45:04.110
Luther Oconer: And so, so what you find in the classic move movement is the language you know that that term commonly used as.

00:45:04.410 --> 00:45:09.780
Luther Oconer: You know the abiding life, you know abiding in the spirit the spirit filled life.

00:45:11.010 --> 00:45:14.100
Luther Oconer: To kind of indicate a much more of a.

00:45:15.990 --> 00:45:24.840
Luther Oconer: You know it's like an ongoing thing is to kind of show that you know by being kicked out of the Holy Spirit that's, the only way, you can suppress.

00:45:26.310 --> 00:45:28.620
Luther Oconer: The the sinful nature from manifesting.

00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:32.640
Luther Oconer: In your life, but then it will never disappear as long as your lead.

00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:34.980
Luther Oconer: You will always be there.

00:45:35.130 --> 00:45:42.060
Luther Oconer: But in the wesleyan sense, no, it will it will, it will be arriving here, it will disappear, it will overcome it.

00:45:43.110 --> 00:45:54.720
Luther Oconer: yeah so that's So those are the distinction when investing in holiness and and Catholic and then what about radical holidays radical holiness comes more from the wesleyan stream the wesleyan higher scream.

00:45:55.860 --> 00:46:04.500
Luther Oconer: But then there they give a lot of emphasis on the eradication, they will call hyper eradication is.

00:46:04.890 --> 00:46:15.330
Luther Oconer: OK, you know very the hyper eradication is and then you also add two to two main teachings to them, they believe in divine healing.

00:46:15.750 --> 00:46:18.090
Luther Oconer: Right and pre willing to listen.

00:46:18.570 --> 00:46:20.610
Luther Oconer: Yes, so that's The other factor.

00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:21.390
Luther Oconer: So it's.

00:46:21.600 --> 00:46:21.960
Andy Miller III: pretty much.

00:46:23.190 --> 00:46:27.180
Andy Miller III: In the radical holiness movement is that dispensation pre millennials.

00:46:27.330 --> 00:46:29.250
Andy Miller III: Or is it MAS doric typo.

00:46:29.370 --> 00:46:38.580
Luther Oconer: yeah it's more up dispensation of his biggest biggest it appeared at a time when the specimen sensationalism appeared in the country.

00:46:39.060 --> 00:46:41.820
Luther Oconer: So there were a whole this folks who embrace that.

00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.280
Luther Oconer: That understand.

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:46.110
Luther Oconer: yeah.

00:46:46.260 --> 00:46:47.910
Andy Miller III: They went up for interrupter yeah.

00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:54.450
Luther Oconer: And it comes in different degrees in morrison I don't see a lot of that in this language.

00:46:54.780 --> 00:47:00.000
Luther Oconer: But he wrote a book on you know, on the second company he wrote a book on.

00:47:01.050 --> 00:47:06.660
Luther Oconer: The world's getting worse, he said word get the better the words the words getting worse and you know.

00:47:06.690 --> 00:47:06.930

00:47:08.310 --> 00:47:18.000
Luther Oconer: But then his conclusion was the world's getting worse, so that puts them in the Premier League Angeles stream and so, so this rambling and his name it's more about that.

00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:24.030
Luther Oconer: You know it's it's I guess the product of what happened after World War one.

00:47:24.330 --> 00:47:26.040
Luther Oconer: The great war is a lot of.

00:47:26.250 --> 00:47:40.830
Luther Oconer: A lot of evangelicals are used to be much more optimistic about the future became became a millennial this because you know they begin to see that the world was getting worse and worse.

00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:47.130
Luther Oconer: And he didn't have look for if you have World War one going on, you know, a.

00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:48.990
Luther Oconer: And I think that's like the morrison.

00:47:49.020 --> 00:47:51.360
Andy Miller III: founds asbury you know seminary.

00:47:51.450 --> 00:47:53.340
Andy Miller III: yeah 1823 since.

00:47:53.700 --> 00:47:55.050
Andy Miller III: you're years ago, you know from now.

00:47:55.170 --> 00:47:55.860
Luther Oconer: But that's like.

00:47:55.950 --> 00:47:59.100
Andy Miller III: that's it period of history what's happening like you were where we are.

00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.620
Andy Miller III: In between World War one and World War Two and that.

00:48:01.650 --> 00:48:07.590
Andy Miller III: yeah dramatically affects what's happening so okay so so but date so they had the radical.

00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:09.660
Andy Miller III: holiness movement.

00:48:09.930 --> 00:48:12.960
Andy Miller III: He always like double down on the replication language.

00:48:13.410 --> 00:48:17.550
Andy Miller III: A little bit surprised to hear you say like it, because even the Wesley and holiness stream.

00:48:17.790 --> 00:48:19.950
Andy Miller III: Not often thinking of them with that language.

00:48:19.950 --> 00:48:20.670
Andy Miller III: Right yes.

00:48:20.850 --> 00:48:21.960
Andy Miller III: But when you said that.

00:48:22.350 --> 00:48:24.510
Andy Miller III: kind of radical holiness movement over.

00:48:24.870 --> 00:48:26.190
Andy Miller III: Over Yes, this is that.

00:48:26.250 --> 00:48:27.030
Luther Oconer: Yes, 3 million.

00:48:27.630 --> 00:48:28.590
Luther Oconer: And healing yeah.

00:48:30.270 --> 00:48:49.560
Luther Oconer: And I think part of that doubling down was also the result of the um the immense popularity of classic you know so they were reacting against classic because they're see oh wow this, this is a direct affront after the call it Martin quality heresy wesleyan heresy the classic movement.

00:48:50.700 --> 00:49:00.720
Luther Oconer: You find that in my article because it a you know, a heresy you know in and and he can avoid the fact that there were students, as somebody.

00:49:02.070 --> 00:49:04.380
Luther Oconer: who hold to the suppression is understanding.

00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:16.110
Luther Oconer: And he would say you know in in first john first john one verse seven it gently that say you know the the blood of Christ.

00:49:17.490 --> 00:49:22.170
Luther Oconer: suppress suppress all sin, but he said cleanses us from all sin method.

00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:35.910
Luther Oconer: So you know, but again it's I think it's part of the reaction against against African and they're finding Catholic manifesting within methodism itself.

00:49:37.050 --> 00:49:45.960
Luther Oconer: And so they tend to push back and so that's why you get the hyper eradication is in them uh.

00:49:46.050 --> 00:49:47.130
Andy Miller III: yeah so this connect.

00:49:49.170 --> 00:49:50.520
Andy Miller III: We could go on for a long time.

00:49:50.520 --> 00:49:51.030
Luther Oconer: Exactly.

00:49:51.060 --> 00:49:52.440
Andy Miller III: really appreciate these distinctions.

00:49:52.830 --> 00:49:54.810
Andy Miller III: So, but we pick up the world tour of.

00:49:54.810 --> 00:49:57.360
Andy Miller III: evangelism so morrison comes.

00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:58.740
Andy Miller III: and brings this.

00:49:58.770 --> 00:49:59.460
Luther Oconer: Different yes.

00:49:59.520 --> 00:50:01.740
Andy Miller III: Active yeah the radical.

00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:03.420
Andy Miller III: holiness movement.

00:50:03.600 --> 00:50:06.210
Andy Miller III: So, like let's let's see if we can tie up like what happened could.

00:50:06.270 --> 00:50:10.320
Andy Miller III: But it's not sorry to have to say, tied up because, like it's lead us to a place where.

00:50:10.740 --> 00:50:13.050
Andy Miller III: good thing happens, we like to see happen here as well.

00:50:13.080 --> 00:50:21.480
Luther Oconer: Yes, exactly exactly yeah because he encountered that, particularly when when he went to India, you know, because by that time you know.

00:50:22.350 --> 00:50:34.470
Luther Oconer: And I wrote a paper on this is also on on under the manifestations of the holiness movement in the madness missions in India and and the conclusion I got was in my conclusion was.

00:50:35.010 --> 00:50:52.260
Luther Oconer: They became more classic in India oh yeah because of their connection with with other denominations mostly you know those coming from the reformed side, and so the way that they were able to kind of unite with a different missions was embrace Catholic and.

00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:53.040
Andy Miller III: And I enjoy.

00:50:53.070 --> 00:51:01.920
Luther Oconer: But, and then by the time by the time cat morrison arrived there in length and then and does his thing revival on the eradication is you know.

00:51:02.370 --> 00:51:18.480
Luther Oconer: And people will start commenting I would see you know comments on on like the Indian witness that's the paper they had in the monasteries in India and what someone said, you know I never saw someone which about you know about the pastor of the possibility of.

00:51:19.590 --> 00:51:20.850
Luther Oconer: places entire sanctification.

00:51:23.250 --> 00:51:25.980
Luther Oconer: There is that eradication of the sinful nature, you know.

00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:35.400
Luther Oconer: It was pouring into them, and this was a Methodist church, you know and so that's I think that was the legacy of morrison it was he tried to bring them back.

00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:40.080
Luther Oconer: On demand it's got the more optimism on.

00:51:40.110 --> 00:51:41.340
Luther Oconer: On that understanding.

00:51:41.730 --> 00:51:44.070
Luther Oconer: Of the possibilities yeah oh yes.

00:51:44.730 --> 00:51:45.600
Luther Oconer: yeah exactly.

00:51:45.750 --> 00:51:47.790
Andy Miller III: The same like pattern keeps coming back and forth.

00:51:47.820 --> 00:51:49.110
Andy Miller III: yeah my own denomination.

00:51:49.590 --> 00:51:52.560
Andy Miller III: A period where we had clear eradication language.

00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:54.450
Andy Miller III: And then, it was taken out.

00:51:54.570 --> 00:52:00.300
Andy Miller III: yeah there's been waves where it's like I don't know if you call it classic understanding, but but but close.

00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:02.640
Andy Miller III: to it and then coming back and forth.

00:52:02.790 --> 00:52:07.710
Andy Miller III: And he's interesting one of the key leaders, was a very good friend, like of of morrison.

00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:09.720
Andy Miller III: Was not Samuel Logan brendel.

00:52:10.020 --> 00:52:13.440
Andy Miller III: Oh, who was murdered this same movement and it came from the Salvation Army.

00:52:13.470 --> 00:52:14.730
Andy Miller III: Yes, I always find it interesting.

00:52:14.940 --> 00:52:18.690
Andy Miller III: interesting way that often get they often get rediscovered.

00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:25.440
Andy Miller III: Yes, hopeful that, like this message, of course, can be connected to our own sense of.

00:52:25.470 --> 00:52:26.490
Luther Oconer: god's exactly work.

00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:31.620
Luther Oconer: yeah yeah yeah for morrison you know I you know he he.

00:52:32.670 --> 00:52:36.570
Luther Oconer: He definitely was moving in the radical and extreme.

00:52:37.620 --> 00:52:40.860
Luther Oconer: But he was more big on the on that eradication.

00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:50.490
Luther Oconer: Well, not so much on the healing I never I never saw anything about him doing healing talking about dealing.

00:52:51.810 --> 00:53:02.310
Luther Oconer: Although you'll find you'll find the accounts of that in the Pentecostal Harold from from people writing to the editor and you know talking about their divine healing experiencing healing.

00:53:02.700 --> 00:53:19.440
Luther Oconer: So I think I guess he allowed them to be published there, but from him personally greetings right into this during that period within the during the world tour and look at you know, a Pentecostal hair 19 1019 1909 1910 1911 I didn't see anything from him.

00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:22.080
Luther Oconer: Speaking about divine eating but there's a lot of him.

00:53:22.470 --> 00:53:27.060
Luther Oconer: Talking about a pre millennial is the second coming.

00:53:28.260 --> 00:53:36.690
Luther Oconer: But not not during the tour, it was mostly about eradication yeah but but you'll find a lot of pre millennial hmm later on.

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:49.650
Luther Oconer: So I think it would be rightly be categorized within the radical radical holiness stream but somehow managed to stay within mainstream methodism.

00:53:49.830 --> 00:53:51.090
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

00:53:51.390 --> 00:53:53.790
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, still had that connection, it was still.

00:53:53.790 --> 00:53:54.390
Andy Miller III: Yes, this.

00:53:54.450 --> 00:53:56.370
Luther Oconer: method it's like figure yes.

00:53:56.520 --> 00:53:57.750
Luther Oconer: we're out there, exactly.

00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:01.290
Luther Oconer: And he goes this crap yeah yeah because it's.

00:54:01.740 --> 00:54:02.430
Luther Oconer: Good again.

00:54:02.520 --> 00:54:03.450
Andy Miller III: model right.

00:54:03.720 --> 00:54:04.500
Andy Miller III: Yes, he's.

00:54:04.710 --> 00:54:06.090
Luther Oconer: he's got the big picture.

00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:09.780
Andy Miller III: He wasn't also it wasn't it He appealed.

00:54:09.990 --> 00:54:11.700
Andy Miller III: To more than just the Holiness.

00:54:11.790 --> 00:54:12.360
Luther Oconer: Movement yeah.

00:54:12.810 --> 00:54:14.820
Andy Miller III: His heel against modernism.

00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:16.200
Andy Miller III: yeah pretty millennial ISM.

00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:18.030
Luther Oconer: Probably noticing improv yes.

00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:18.780
Andy Miller III: Robin way.

00:54:18.990 --> 00:54:25.230
Luther Oconer: In a broader way yeah I mean it, I mean it's interesting he said he was able to operate within mainstream methodism.

00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:29.730
Luther Oconer: But then had a lot of friends in the radical holiness stream.

00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:38.040
Luther Oconer: You know yeah especially folks from god's Bible school which not too far from you know from wilmore yes, of course, it was in Cincinnati.

00:54:39.720 --> 00:54:42.750
Luther Oconer: So you know you with that's where all Ms came from.

00:54:43.770 --> 00:54:45.450
Luther Oconer: oriental missionary society.

00:54:46.980 --> 00:54:50.400
Luther Oconer: And so he's kind of look at us as a friend in that movement.

00:54:50.640 --> 00:54:51.120
Luther Oconer: You know.

00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:56.310
Luther Oconer: it's interesting how I was able to do all of that, you know.

00:54:58.830 --> 00:55:03.030
Luther Oconer: And I mean it's a really he's really a fascinating figure.

00:55:04.230 --> 00:55:10.260
Luther Oconer: And i'm not you know i'm gonna i'm not surprised, why, during his time he was able to.

00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:14.250
Luther Oconer: He was able to kind of revive asbury college.

00:55:14.430 --> 00:55:18.150
Luther Oconer: Right, yes, he was he was in a big mess at that time.

00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:21.270
Luther Oconer: Financially, but you know, he was able to.

00:55:23.190 --> 00:55:23.820
Luther Oconer: kind of.

00:55:25.170 --> 00:55:30.300
Luther Oconer: Alice you know, during his leadership he was able to kind of lead up the school.

00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:37.020
Luther Oconer: Out of financial trouble and then later on, he was able to establish a seminary.

00:55:38.550 --> 00:55:39.270
Luther Oconer: yeah.

00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:41.460
Andy Miller III: I mean all things went both institution.

00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:43.260
Andy Miller III: We if you would not exist without.

00:55:43.290 --> 00:55:44.490
Andy Miller III: yeah his leadership.

00:55:44.520 --> 00:55:53.460
Andy Miller III: Obviously, exactly, if you found it interesting dissertation by Mike long no journalist journalism professor, but he looked at the way that.

00:55:55.350 --> 00:55:58.020
Andy Miller III: He morrison was able to use a Pentecostal.

00:55:58.020 --> 00:55:59.610
Andy Miller III: Harold night a group.

00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:02.250
Andy Miller III: So save the school financially.

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:04.260
Andy Miller III: Exactly yeah I think that that's.

00:56:04.770 --> 00:56:05.700
Andy Miller III: It was impart.

00:56:06.120 --> 00:56:06.900
Andy Miller III: This bro.

00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:10.620
Andy Miller III: I think my my little summary thought i'll let you give a closing thought that too.

00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:16.440
Andy Miller III: is like this pan Wesley and movement is doesn't necessarily need to be connected to institutions.

00:56:16.530 --> 00:56:21.420
Andy Miller III: yeah at the same time there's there's something going on, but it does need a uniting connection.

00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:28.860
Andy Miller III: yeah I know I don't want to take away from your emphasis of what was able to happen in this world tour, but it was this message.

00:56:29.100 --> 00:56:30.390
Luther Oconer: And secondly.

00:56:30.750 --> 00:56:32.490
Luther Oconer: Exactly closing.

00:56:32.820 --> 00:56:33.570
Andy Miller III: closing comment.

00:56:33.600 --> 00:56:34.650
Luther Oconer: On that, and then I guess.

00:56:34.650 --> 00:56:35.280
Andy Miller III: question for you.

00:56:35.490 --> 00:56:42.180
Luther Oconer: Yes, precisely, you know it's really the message the message that he carried resonated with people.

00:56:43.560 --> 00:56:45.180
Luther Oconer: The message of offered hope.

00:56:45.750 --> 00:56:55.020
Luther Oconer: Yes, you know we're seeing this reality that people experience in their lives, and they want to get out of that reality that that scene.

00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:01.140
Luther Oconer: and Martin offer the way you know that made sense to them.

00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:14.970
Luther Oconer: And it was it resonated with people it resonated with folks from the whole one panelist in connection that are subscribing to a paper you know, obviously they love what he was writing while he was doing.

00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:19.320
Luther Oconer: He was a successful evangelist preaching.

00:57:20.250 --> 00:57:24.270
Luther Oconer: What at the same time, when he went to the went when he went for it world or quote Unquote.

00:57:27.030 --> 00:57:30.990
Luther Oconer: You know the mess, you know this, this is the same thing, the same.

00:57:32.610 --> 00:57:41.340
Luther Oconer: welcoming you the way, how was it Nice was welcome in the US, you know, it was the same the same outpouring of support.

00:57:41.730 --> 00:57:48.900
Luther Oconer: yeah so it was manifested as well in those in those parts of the world, not even an AMA just talking about.

00:57:50.340 --> 00:57:57.750
Luther Oconer: American audience, you know he he preached to Filipino audiences through vermin, you know to Indians.

00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:10.230
Luther Oconer: You know, international folks a business account where pull up you know amazing things happening on the outer and mostly it's not you know you have the mixture of.

00:58:10.650 --> 00:58:16.980
Luther Oconer: Americans Europeans there, particularly in India, but for the most part natives female.

00:58:17.580 --> 00:58:34.590
Luther Oconer: or nationals responding to his message, so I guess I think that's, the key to a successful was this is the message that he carried, and sometimes we tend to not recognize that people tend to look at more on the on the on the outside.

00:58:35.100 --> 00:58:36.660
Luther Oconer: yeah, if you like, and I love that.

00:58:37.140 --> 00:58:51.540
Luther Oconer: And I think that's one of the things that I did when when I did my study is to really recognize if you're going to study, people who are going to study missionaries or personalities look at what they're teaching look at the content, the content.

00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:59.100
Luther Oconer: Because more and more more often or not we ignore those we ignore that you know in our when we do studies on people.

00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:01.290
Luther Oconer: yeah.

00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.030
Andy Miller III: So that's great Luther Thank you so.

00:59:03.030 --> 00:59:06.210
Andy Miller III: much for your time you're always ask people in connected this idea I say.

00:59:06.750 --> 00:59:08.400
Andy Miller III: story cuz yeah theological.

00:59:09.240 --> 00:59:14.670
Andy Miller III: yeah there's more than just salvation but they're also more to this story of Luther o'connor than most people know.

00:59:15.180 --> 00:59:15.690
Luther Oconer: Oh yes.

00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:22.860
Luther Oconer: Just just like more than one of the things that attracted me to him, you know, he was 35 police and evangelists and.

00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:28.530
Luther Oconer: yeah and I do Emma Emma Emma I would say, a revivalist as well, I.

00:59:28.620 --> 00:59:37.140
Luther Oconer: am part of the things that I do not only teach in the seminary and not only do R amp D, research and development, so to speak.

00:59:38.190 --> 00:59:39.360
Luther Oconer: But I also.

00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:46.860
Luther Oconer: Particularly in in in the past six years, five or six years, I began.

00:59:47.970 --> 00:59:53.460
Luther Oconer: I began finding myself more in the pulpit preaching doing events.

00:59:54.570 --> 00:59:58.860
Luther Oconer: And also, I started finding myself doing more, a lot of divine healing.

01:00:00.180 --> 01:00:01.590
Luther Oconer: The mind healing workshops.

01:00:03.090 --> 01:00:05.190
Luther Oconer: Not just in my preaching but also.

01:00:06.450 --> 01:00:14.430
Luther Oconer: Because imagine when when when was this probably around 2016 and I recently found myself being invited.

01:00:16.200 --> 01:00:23.520
Luther Oconer: To do divine healing workshops in churches more than I was invited to do workshops on methodism.

01:00:28.290 --> 01:00:33.960
Luther Oconer: yeah the divine healing part you know aspect in my ministry base that you know.

01:00:33.990 --> 01:00:37.020
Luther Oconer: yeah it seems outrageous you know.

01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:43.350
Luther Oconer: didn't seek me out more for that at least prior to the pandemic that was the case.

01:00:44.970 --> 01:00:49.590
Luther Oconer: yeah and, and so I I really find this exciting because.

01:00:51.090 --> 01:01:03.750
Luther Oconer: Because prior to be you know entering the actually the Academy, the academe I was a pastor I was faster in the Church, I was a youth revival less and less what what got me in trouble, by the way.

01:01:06.060 --> 01:01:14.940
Luther Oconer: By the way, about the anyway, you know I thought I was starting in the ministry and then to find myself coming full circle just about five to six years ago.

01:01:15.390 --> 01:01:33.420
Luther Oconer: And one of my, I guess, one of my highlights in my in my ministry was in 2016 when I was invited to the Philippines in the United venture in the Philippines to to be one of the features are to preach at the.

01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:42.510
Luther Oconer: What they would call the revived conference that was in Manila, and there were about 12,000 people they're.

01:01:42.810 --> 01:01:44.280
Luther Oconer: amazed in that.

01:01:44.430 --> 01:01:50.520
Luther Oconer: That stage room and, as I was standing there in front of the of those people, I was really terrified.

01:01:51.600 --> 01:01:54.420
Andy Miller III: But at the same time, I was kind of remind them, you know.

01:01:55.410 --> 01:02:02.550
Luther Oconer: I remind myself, you know you were just writing about revival leads to every viable in this country, you know, a battery saving the.

01:02:03.720 --> 01:02:08.790
Luther Oconer: Bible is same as the wholeness movement in the Philippines and now here you are you're doing are divided one.

01:02:08.970 --> 01:02:13.650
Luther Oconer: wow and you know it's very humbling to think about that you know it's.

01:02:13.710 --> 01:02:14.670
Andy Miller III: it's yeah.

01:02:15.150 --> 01:02:18.870
Luther Oconer: Because I saw my screen, I was kind of seeing myself more as a professor.

01:02:19.530 --> 01:02:22.350
Luther Oconer: right, then, and then suddenly yeah and then suddenly.

01:02:23.160 --> 01:02:24.990
Luther Oconer: being given that opportunity so.

01:02:25.020 --> 01:02:28.860
Luther Oconer: yeah I just thank God for that, where i'm seeing myself now yeah.

01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:33.900
Andy Miller III: Oh, I love you know I when I left I left a local church through lucious.

01:02:34.350 --> 01:02:44.040
Andy Miller III: me and I just been about a year since I did, and I entered the Academy myself and I wondered about that and I just look back and I think I probably preached more.

01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:45.390
Andy Miller III: yeah past year.

01:02:45.600 --> 01:02:45.840
Andy Miller III: yeah.

01:02:46.110 --> 01:02:47.910
Luther Oconer: When I was a local church pastor exactly it's.

01:02:47.910 --> 01:02:51.360
Andy Miller III: amazing how God continues to keep these doors open for the way.

01:02:51.510 --> 01:02:52.110
Luther Oconer: He wants to work.

01:02:52.200 --> 01:02:53.580
Andy Miller III: Through us and i'm so thankful user.

01:02:53.790 --> 01:03:00.870
Andy Miller III: name or how god's using you as you're you're teaching your scholarship and you're preaching and for the way that you're open to spiritual so thanks so much for coming.

01:03:01.020 --> 01:03:03.420
Andy Miller III: On board His story podcast it's a blessing to have you.

01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:09.630
Luther Oconer: thanks again and the taxi Thank you all thanks for having me God bless.

Copyright ©2024 Andrew S. Miller III