“Our Great Redeemer’s Praise” - A New Pan-Wesleyan Hymnal
December 22, 2022
The new hymnal - Our Great Redeemer’s Praise – is out! Now that this hymnal is available, I had Jonathan Powers on the podcast to talk about it again. Don’t miss this important resource.
Youtube - https://youtu.be/pEvJFOCBic8
Our Great Redeemer’s Praise Hymnal - https://ourgreatredeemerspraise.com/
Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page: http://courses.andymilleriii.com
Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you. Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.
Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors:
Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals. You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com
Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu
Thanks too to Phil Laeger for the new podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net
This is Andy Miller coming to you from the more to the story. Podcast in Ridgeland, Mississippi, on the campus of Wesley Biblical Seminary, and it does indeed look like we are live so
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Andy Miller III: all right. We are going, and I have with me. Dr. Jonathan Powers, who has is a reoccurring guest on this podcast.
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Andy Miller III: Last time we talked a little bit about Ufos and the and a handle, but today we're just going to concentrate on the hymn, Merry Christmas, everybody you can see. I'm in my festive gear the one day of the year where I wear it to the office, my ugly Christmas butter, which has come in handy through the years. It's a Star Wars
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stormtroopers with some candy cane. So there you go.
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Jonathan Powers: We just can't say out the Sci-fi.
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Andy Miller III: It's how it goes. You know it is I I I get just get draw is Sci-fi and rocky movies. I'm just always drawn back to him. I do. I think back.
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Andy Miller III: Have you seen the statue in Philadelphia? You know I have not. And I just did, Jonathan. You find some. Maybe you find interesting. I have educated my children, and we have gone through all the rocky movies, some fast forwarding and and the 2 creeds. Okay, yeah.
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Andy Miller III: nice. So I. Now, now we need to go. Take go to Philadelphia, climb the stairs, and after that we can do something else where we'll go by the statue, too. So that's awesome.
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Andy Miller III: All right, real quick. I want to let make sure they know this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. You still have time to audit classes, sign up for classes for our winter spring semester. We would love to get you engaged in this process, and you can find out more at Wbs.
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Andy Miller III: Edu. And secondly, I'm thinking to my friend Bill Roberts, who's helped support this podcast
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Andy Miller III: and those of you who might be interested in supporting. I'm hoping i'm gonna even have. I don't know how this is gonna go a donate button on the website, so maybe you go and be a sponsor. You don't have your name mentioned every time. But if you're interested and we're gonna come up with something where we might even have more to the story. Members who get special content be on the lookout for that, and also be on the lookout
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Andy Miller III: for a survey. Those of you on my email list. A survey is coming out where I will kind of like figure out who my audience is a little better, I think I know, but i'm looking forward to hearing more. So Bill Roberts is what somebody has helped me make this happen for a while.
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Andy Miller III: He's a financial planner. He does a great job from a Christian perspective. You can find out more about him at William H. Roberts. Com.
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Andy Miller III: Okay, we are live in Jonathan. I am so glad we are it. Maybe we can get to a place where I can see some questions that come up on Facebook if you're interested in this. But we talked last summer about the the coming hymnol.
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Andy Miller III: and what was about to come. That was like the first advent.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah, we have the Second Advent where it is truly come again. Our great Redeemers praise. Hey, man, man, way to go, Jonathan. When this came in the mail I was like a it was a early Christmas for me. Nice! Tell us what! What's it like to get this out finally.
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Jonathan Powers: Oh, gosh! It's been amazing and and just hearing
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Jonathan Powers: so many people talk about it, and and getting emails about it being used. You know anything from people saying we're we're using the hymns we're singing the hymns together to the liturgies in the back people saying like oh, it's been so wonderful to have these prayers, or the you, Chris Liturgy, You know we've used this a few times in in our church already, and and getting into that rhythm. We love it. It's it's so exciting, and so many people saying
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Jonathan Powers: both to to hold it all you're saying just to be able to hold it and say, I've heard about this thing, and it's so good to see it. But and look! We got blue and red.
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Jonathan Powers: and but you know a lot of people
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Jonathan Powers: have have just been so impressed by the content in it, saying, Wow! I did not expect there to be so many Wesley hymns, for instance. So my goodness! I was looking through it, and there's so many good Wesley hymns ones that either I hadn't seen in a handle for a long time, or i'd never seen in a hindle. This is awesome, or people
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Jonathan Powers: saying it was so neat to look through it, and to see some contemporary material as well as long historic material. You know the hymns that we love and are used to, but also hymns that date back to the earliest centuries. it people have really appreciated that. And and I think to to
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Andy Miller III: what are the the end like the the earliest hem and the latest hymn that's included in this handle.
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Jonathan Powers: Yeah, that's a great question. So the the earliest one, you know, in in in terms of him. We we have him from the second century, and so the one hundred's exact dating, you know. They didn't quite copyright things the same way back as we do now. So but the second century we can say, no. Yeah, it's just verifying it. I yeah, you know it. I don't know it's. I I guess their email didn't work as well to like. Send those things in quickly.
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Jonathan Powers: but yeah, so it I don't know it.
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Jonathan Powers: in some ways it depends on how you want to to to talk about them, you know, because we've got like metrical psalms. And so the Psalms themselves, of course, would be thousands of years old. though the tunes put to them, or you know, anywhere from a few 100 years old to
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Jonathan Powers: a few decades Old so in in one sense you could say you have it all the way from the the the Jewish Psalms up to you know. 2,019.
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Jonathan Powers: but if if you're talking to him outside of Biblical material, because we do have like canticles and stuff, too, that are taken from like the magnificent things like that. Luke
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Jonathan Powers: Mary's song, and Luke, you know
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Jonathan Powers: If if you're not counting those that come straight from the Bible, you know. Extra Biblical extra. It'll be cool songs, I would say. second century up to 2,019
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Jonathan Powers: the blessing. the Lord bless you, keep so that 1 one of the reasons we put that one in, and it's the last that Well, I shouldn't say it's the last time. It's the last time with music in it, if you, if you
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Andy Miller III: had a himal on you and so for those who don't have the him know yet when you get your him, know and follow along this podcast, and you will get your him. No, everybody should get it. And just saying to my friends who are coming on with us. Live now with Dr. Jonathan Powers, who's the general editor for the new Pan Wesley, and him know, published by seed bed called our Great Redeemers praise. So we're talking through some of the things that are involved that Sorry interrupt you, Johnson. No, you're great yeah, anytime. and I in fact, lied about the date. I apologize.
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Jonathan Powers: I I remembered incorrectly. It's chosen 20. So it's even newer. And that's that's actually meaningful. So part of the reason we put this in and put it at the very end. It's a beautiful song. It's Biblical. Of course you know that I mean, this comes from
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Jonathan Powers: the the the blessings, the Lord bless you to keep you in the numbers blessing there. The Lord bless you to keep you.
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Jonathan Powers: And yeah, so you can see it there tales and 20 part of the reason why, when put it in here, though, is because you know part of what a hymn is is a historic artifact. Even it. It says something about the culture system. About the time the songs, the songs that came out were important.
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Jonathan Powers: and for a lot of people this song was a very important song. During Lockdowns and Covid there were so many of those viral videos that were made of like people singing in their own homes, that they sent in a video. And then they pulled them all together and made this like choir out of everybody singing them.
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Jonathan Powers: and we just felt like that was such an important song during the lockdowns and Covid and that experience of Covid in 2,020, that we wanted to put it in here, and it's a great concluding song. It's it's a great blessing. It's called, of course called the blessing.
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Jonathan Powers: and just felt like that, and it's newer, but just felt it's so fitting to end this him the with. Now there's one more him. If you turn the page from there, there is one more. Him and just don't have music. It it's kind of a we call it a post script, and so the text is there. But the music isn't because we just thought it's this nice concluding
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Jonathan Powers: thought, you know. How can I keep from singing a great hymn attributed to Robert Lowry. how can I keep from saying, yeah, exactly. I love the him, and we just thought what a great way to, and you know, like the last song, is the blessing.
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Jonathan Powers: But then this post script to say, and here, as you know, a final thought as as this Himal wraps up and concludes at least the him section of it.
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Jonathan Powers: How can we keep from singing? You know my lo! My life flows on an endless song above alert earth's lamentation. I hear the suite, though far off him the hills and new creation. Through all the tumult and the strife. I hear the music ringing. It finds an echo in my soul. How can I keep from singing? I'm just a great
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Andy Miller III: final thought. There, awesome. I love the structure of it all, too. And I one thing I saw some friends. I'll shout out to my friend Fred Manbezi, who's in the Philadelphia area I believe I know he's originally from Royal of Michigan, but he he was just. He got a hold of the hymn and was loving it.
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Andy Miller III: He's a you know part of. I was on the Advisory committee, and you can find my my name on a point 6 that font way at the very back, as I helped with some others from various traditions. This and part of why this is significant to me, is
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Andy Miller III: It's why I wanted to even have this emphasis here
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Andy Miller III: it will bring you back on is because it's identifying a pan. Wesley and tradition. Now i'm using that term more regularly now because it's describing. I think the totality of the groups that emerge from the eighteenth century revival of John and Charles Wesley.
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Andy Miller III: and then, and then the various groups and even movements from within that, and that could be as far as like the Holiness movement, which is, you know, my specific tradition and traditions connected to West Biblical Seminary and the Pentecostal movement, and even the other groups to their like, your Jonathan connected
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Andy Miller III: to the Anglican Church in North America. So like there there are there are these streams. But yet there's this group that's uniting us, and and I've been one. I've struggled now here i'm getting set in the psychologist couch something like struggle a little bit more lately with institutions like
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Andy Miller III: as you, as many of my friends are, part of the Global Methodist Church, and it's leadership, and it's emergence, and my prayers are with that group. Nevertheless, it's hard. It's hard to create institutions. Institutions fail us. Institutions can do a great good.
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Andy Miller III: but I've I've found myself leaning in to the network.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah, this hymn was meant for. Yeah, like you and I are in different denominations, and they're very different Sunday mornings, most likely. Nevertheless, like we are connected by a shared theology, and i'm so thankful that this hymn
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Andy Miller III: it represents this group. I mean, I I think, like you, what! What group of my part of I'm a. Whoever sings from this hem, though, that's
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that's my try.
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Jonathan Powers: That's so good. That's one of the things that, like One of the statements that I've been saying about this hymn
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Jonathan Powers: is, you know, part of what a hymn does is it's it's a. It's a cannon, you know, just like we would say a canon of Scripture. These are the books of the Bible that make up God's Word authoritative word for us. and in a hymn, you know, we're I'm: i'm not trying to equate I him know what the Bible in any way.
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Jonathan Powers: Yeah. But yeah, just saying that that like
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Jonathan Powers: there, there's intentionality behind it. We had to carefully select the hymns and say, what goes in? What doesn't go in? And does it reflect our theology and our heritage? Well.
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Jonathan Powers: you know, and and and is it a good resource for us to know? What is it that we believe, as those that are descendants from the Wesley's, and that Wesley movement, or that original
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Jonathan Powers: Methodist movement, you know in in England, but that the the Wesley and revivals, and all that. And so the phrase that I've I've used is to say you, you can look this him or sorry not the same. But you look this hymn, and you can say, this is who we are as Wesleyan's.
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Jonathan Powers: This will give you an idea of who we are. Read through this. Look through it, you'll get a very good sense of who you are. Holiness, grace the work of Christ in us.
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Jonathan Powers: Christian perfection. all of this. You know it's it's in here. the the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and what that means for us. that is in here. So you get a good. So this is who we are, and this is who we are together because we are all, you know, the the the work of the Holy Spirit.
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Jonathan Powers: the
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Jonathan Powers: the call to action and ministry and missions, and into care and all truism. Yeah, I mean these say, I mean just to say, like our just use our 2 traditions in particular. and of course they're more than this, but we can say
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Jonathan Powers: primary emphasis. At least we say Salvation Army. Yes, there is a call to to action into caring for this world, and and a holiness that extends to everyone. Right? to all those that we interact with.
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Jonathan Powers: and we get that out of the Salvation Army in a beautiful way, and we need that in the Anglican tradition we get a a focus on the the work of grace, the means of grace. But you know the Sacraments in that. And so we can look at this and say there might be different emphasis in different ways between us. But
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Jonathan Powers: this is who we are, and this is, we are together because the Salvation Army is going to push us in certain ways. The Anglicans are going to push to certain ways the Wesleyans, the Church of God that you know all of that. It's good. It's wonderful.
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Andy Miller III: yeah, it's it's fascinating to like, Just see, like the the hymnal. It provides this cannon that helps define the movement, and I I don't think you could say, Well, let's go to
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Andy Miller III: Tom Od. And Systematic Theology. I mean that kind of unites us. Yeah, wow, I mean everybody. Everybody in that tradition might agree
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Andy Miller III: generically with biology there. But at the same time, not everybody in the tradition is going to read it, and and I almost don't want it. I mean, Well, yeah, I would want everybody to go read Tomo, read for Christmas. Pick it up, pick them up, but nevertheless it's connected to that. What we actually do this is yeah
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Andy Miller III: to action on a regular action in remembrance in theology, and it's not theology for theology's sake. Of course, what we're doing here as well, is recognizing that God has
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Andy Miller III: in space and time, and that we are called to remember his redemptive activity. So that's why this is so important. And then there's a particular way
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Andy Miller III: that that is accentuated in this tradition. So it's. It's a fascinating process. Now I want to just highlight the Salvation Army him kind of yeah, please. I I have a bookmark, and so, my no legger. Hopefully, he's going to copy this. Yeah, his version of William Booth. Him send the fire here.
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Andy Miller III: We also have that it really nice to have John Warson, who interesting enough
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Andy Miller III: the in in the Savage Army station. There's 2 people who it Often their names go together. Gallons and Larson, John Gowns and John Larson interesting enough. About 20 years after they wrote a bunch of songs
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Jonathan Powers: they both became international leaders in the establishment
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Andy Miller III: generals, and so They wrote musicals, and the musicals then became a part of the culture of the savage army, and then became a part of the worshipping culture. So his song their song, I should say, to be like Jesus is in here.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah, also we have Bill Heim song, all, of course, all that I am
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Andy Miller III: I I was glad to get I I didn't know that you guys would take this one, Jonathan, and it's kind of hard to note it, and on the
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Andy Miller III: strophically, my friends, and anybody who visits the savage army. You see the song You probably like the Savage Army zone, and it's. I'll go in the strength of the Lord. It's made its way in there as well.
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Andy Miller III: and then we have also Herbert Booze. Great song, Christ is all.
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Andy Miller III: And then here at the cross, the great Brahmall. Coles piece is the secret of thy presence.
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Andy Miller III: Albert Osborne. I'm going to stop there. But anyways I was. It was fun to see some of my friends get the him know.
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Andy Miller III: and as they're going through it they're like, oh, in the secret is in here they're they're excited about it. And I think I imagine that will be the case with other traditions as well.
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Jonathan Powers: Yeah, yeah, go ahead. I was just saying that that that that's part of the hope is that somebody could could take the signal and feel represented, you know. Say, like, oh, wow! We are represented here, you know, and and saying, like the the goal, is not to make it the Salvation Army handle, you know. So you know we're not trying to replace the Salvation Army Army. Him? No, and say.
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Jonathan Powers: you know yours is no good. Use this instead it by any means at all. But we're saying like, how do you help us? How do you help make this him the better? But also, how do we represent you to say this is our family, and we want, like your voice needs to be in here.
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Jonathan Powers: and that's why we wanted, You know, someone like you, Andy and and and others, you know, to give us that material to say if if you were to grab this hymn and start looking through and say like, oh, wow, yes, our voice Isn't here.
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Jonathan Powers: you know. then. yeah, this is such a huge help. And so we were just so appreciative to our advisory team. from, you know so many different denominations, Wesley and Heritage denominations
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Jonathan Powers: that helped do that, and and we've heard that you know a couple of times already from a few different people. like yourself saying, this is just wonderful to see.
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Andy Miller III: Now, one of the interesting things that happened is When I did my own research like I didn't want it to Just it was very tempting, Jonathan to make it my list of somebody Show me so, but I did a I did a little an independent survey myself, and checked in with some people, and when I did that a lot of people were saying.
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Andy Miller III: Well, I like all the savage army, ones, Andy, but make sure that you might not even laugh at this. Make sure, holy, holy, Holy is in there, or make sure how great thou art in. There are no and i'm I to remind some people, even for my own tradition. hey, friends.
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Jonathan Powers: that's actually not a salvation.
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Andy Miller III: and you had a process for evaluating that. And we talked about this last time. But just tell us like, because because there was like a core group of hymns that you included. Tell us about that.
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Jonathan Powers: So we started by doing a comparative index. we grabbed different hymns from the Major Western denominations just to, for instance, you know I won't name them all. But just, for instance.
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Jonathan Powers: like the Wesleyan hymn, all the Free Methodist timnel the
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Jonathan Powers: Nazarene, he'll the United Methodist Timel, the Salvation Army songbook, you know. So we we we got these
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Jonathan Powers: and indexed all of them put a spreadsheet together that showed
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Jonathan Powers: all of the
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Jonathan Powers: indexes for every single one of those side by side with each other. And then from there we just said what appears in all of them so like Who? Holy, holy, you know all of them.
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Jonathan Powers: Oh, 4,000 tungs to seeing all of them, you know things like that and so we so like. Those are non-negotiable like that just shows that across all the heritage wesleyan heritage movements
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Jonathan Powers: we all think these are import. They. You know these. This group is important because we've all put it in our hymn. So those that we started with that. And then we said, what appears in almost all the hymnals, you know, and in half the handles
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Jonathan Powers: and that gave us a good core to start with, and then to evaluate, you know, as as it kind of decreased like. Well, okay, so we don't see it in all 9 hymnals. We see it in 5 of them, you know, is that, you know. Let's look at those or some of those ones that we say. Okay, now, that would be a good one or something like I don't know we'll let's wait to hear from our consultants to see if those pop up your advisors
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Jonathan Powers: do those pop up. If not maybe the ones that we can let go. and then it was then you all just got to help us, you know, like if it was only in one or 2 hymn. We probably didn't include it unless it was like, you know. Say that this song only appeared in the Salvation Army hymn, but you told us. No, this is an important song, you know, in the secret. Let's say that you know but it's only in the one handle. We don't know if it's important or not. But you said no, that a lot of people said, that's important. Okay, we're putting it in that, you know. That's that's good to know. We want to put that
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Jonathan Powers: But other ones, too. That might not be you know, maybe specific to the Salvation Army. But just to say, okay, we saw these come up that, you know, some people said, or even a couple of 2 or 3 advisors said that we should pay attention to that if multiple people are saying it.
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Jonathan Powers: or ones that we just read through and look through and and some hymns. We discovered through this process because we were looking through the hymns we were looking up the hymns. I mean, it took a long this this is a 3 and a half year process, you know.
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Jonathan Powers: so so going through them and looking through some of the text and saying.
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Jonathan Powers: Wow! This is a gorgeous text, and this speaks so well to holiness.
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Jonathan Powers: and we want to have a robust section on holiness or a a good, You know. Selection of Holiness hymns in here or on the work of the Holy Spirit. You know, we say that that is something we believe is
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Jonathan Powers: a an important emphasis in Wesley and Theology, and so we want to make sure the work the Holy Spirit is represented well in the criminal. And so these hymns ones that we didn't maybe know as well, or some that have been forgotten or some it's like the text is great, but the tune just isn't that familiar.
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Jonathan Powers: So maybe because of you know, I just opened up, you know you
00:30:18.110 --> 00:30:33.900
Jonathan Powers: you know you go to go to a handle, and it has the meter up there and shows you, you know. So you know, okay, if there's that meter Well, here's this tune for this specific song. there's other songs that have that same meter, and you can sing it to that
00:30:33.980 --> 00:30:40.059
Jonathan Powers: same tune, you know. So may we just find a more familiar tune that, and people will
00:30:40.070 --> 00:31:00.640
Jonathan Powers: be willing to sing it. More might be, you know, when we're ready to sing it, or able to sing it more. And so there are a few hymns that we did that with, or once to where they were just new arrangements written on. We have one by Jonathan Ottawa, who is a a a recent Phd. Graduate from Duke University. I I say th I grab it a a graduate
00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:19.460
Jonathan Powers: doing liturgical scholarship, and Jonathan wrote original music to Charles Wesley's. glory B to Christ on high. And yeah it it's just just wonderful, wonderful! And i'm so glad to have that sweet hong lim who
00:31:19.820 --> 00:31:24.839
Jonathan Powers: teaches up a Toronto and does music? sue hong
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:40.489
Jonathan Powers: wrote some original music for a couple of the hymns as well, and we included those in there just like it. It's just good to have new contemporary tunes to some of these older texts that people might not know, or be as willing to seeing, because either the tune is so
00:31:40.600 --> 00:31:57.139
Jonathan Powers: stylistic, foreign, you know, or or older and just doesn't translate as well today, or difficult complicated, whatever it might be. but these are ways to hopefully make those texts more accessible to to to audiences today as well.
00:31:57.150 --> 00:32:13.410
Andy Miller III: That's great. This is like one of the things that happened. That's why I was a little worried about. I'll go in the strength to a lord, making it, making the cut, because it's a tough one to sing. But you guys found a way to get it in a good key, and to I mean you can't quite have a brass band accompanying it.
00:32:13.420 --> 00:32:23.239
Jonathan Powers: Yeah, in in the middle. is there any version of it that comes like spiral bound? Or is that something you people do themselves like to make it easier to.
00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:29.169
Jonathan Powers: And I think the the date is February for that publishing. We'll have a
00:32:29.260 --> 00:32:47.230
Jonathan Powers: basically like a a keyboardist organist edition. I think the typical terminology for I mean it, you know. Of course you don't have to be an organist to to get that. But a spiral bound basically that will have it. So a a nice good copy of it, you know. Good cover to it and everything.
00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:57.239
Jonathan Powers: So you can order that. And because because there's so many, it's going to come in 2 volumes, so it's not too cumbersome. You can have volume, one volume, 2, and it'll be larger
00:32:57.370 --> 00:33:05.489
Jonathan Powers: 2, so it's not. It'll be larger than this size. So not just this. Put into spire bound, but blown up a little bit, so a little easier to read and see.
00:33:05.590 --> 00:33:08.039
Jonathan Powers: and because of that it just makes it
00:33:08.090 --> 00:33:17.609
Jonathan Powers: a little bit bigger, of course, and and and later. So we just thought, let's just break it up into 2 volumes, and so you can get volume, one volume, 2 of the
00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:20.119
Jonathan Powers: accompany us additions, maybe the best
00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:26.479
Andy Miller III: term to use. There you go. Yeah. Well, that's that was already. My little complaint was, My boys.
00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:43.249
Andy Miller III: My boys are ones who like they! They! They've used it, but it's like oh, it's too it. We got to work it in better. We we're getting there on playing using it for piano, but it's still in that. It's coming about. Now I want to encourage people. Part of why I wanted to have you on before. Christmas was not just so people could see my ugly Christmas sweater.
00:33:43.260 --> 00:33:46.739
Andy Miller III: though i'm glad for that. It was also because
00:33:46.790 --> 00:33:56.979
Andy Miller III: I want it. There might be time for you to get one for Christmas. This would be a great Christmas gift. Now I'm fortunate I have 2 already, and that
00:33:56.990 --> 00:34:08.089
Andy Miller III: I got one as a gift from helping participate in the committee, but I would like to get one for every person in my family, and the idea would be that we would take this, and we would use it at the dinner table right now. I have some like
00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:22.210
Andy Miller III: Xerox copies of the Nicene and Apostles create, and we have some Scripture memory pieces that we're doing, and every now and we have a few him that we try and learn to sing. But I like I want to have this right by the dinner table.
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:22.859
Jonathan Powers: Hmm.
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:27.229
Andy Miller III: We hand it around. We go through the the worship materials at the back.
00:34:27.260 --> 00:34:53.090
Jonathan Powers: and we use that like in our family. This would be. Look if you're looking for something for your family, you could be on the cutting edge this new. So go to. I probably just seed bed.com. I imagine it's one of the first things they would. Yeah, it is it's it's highlighted on seed bedcom. You can go to seed Bedcom C Bed actually made a website specifically for the handle. A full. It has resources, it has videos. It has explanations. It has lots of things.
00:34:53.120 --> 00:34:58.370
Jonathan Powers: and it is called. Oh, sorry about that. it is
00:34:58.750 --> 00:35:08.610
Jonathan Powers: the the link to it is our great Redeemers praise.com just all one word. The title of the Himal. All one word, our great Redeemers praise.com.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:24.499
Jonathan Powers: and you can find it, and no apostrophe on the S. You know that I mean it's our great Redeemers praise. But just as one forward com and you can. You can watch a video that explains a little bit more about the hymn you can
00:35:24.510 --> 00:35:32.150
Jonathan Powers: see you can kind of preview some material from the himal and get some some
00:35:33.060 --> 00:35:46.949
Jonathan Powers: fact points on what's included in the hymn and order it. you know the the color you can order blue or red individual copies, and also sell them in cases by the case, you get a little bit of a discount if you buy it by the case.
00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:56.639
Andy Miller III: I've heard some large churches have already, who have just affiliated from the 9 Methodist Church, and by actually losing their hymnals, have already bought large quantities of them. So i'm
00:35:56.650 --> 00:36:15.339
Andy Miller III: thankful for that, for you guys you can go check. Take a look at this. I just those of you who are watching live on Facebook. This will be on Youtube, and then an audio version also on my podcast channels. But I'll try and include links. I just put a link for the hymn for our great Redeemers praisecom
00:36:15.350 --> 00:36:21.350
Andy Miller III: go get it. Let's get this folks I want. I want to say to i'm disappointed it. Didn't work out for us. They get kind of
00:36:21.570 --> 00:36:40.980
Andy Miller III: coke or collaborator on this project, Julie Tenant on the I noticed I did go to that. not while we were talking, but I did see. I've seen that website, and you and Julie talk about the hymn, and it's a great little video highlighting what's happening. So our our thanks to Julie, too, for her great work in this project. You guys come together, I can see.
00:36:41.160 --> 00:36:45.460
Andy Miller III: knowing you both can see your fingerprints on this, and I'm: thankful for that.
00:36:45.660 --> 00:36:53.340
Jonathan Powers: Yeah, Well, Thank you. I mean so many people to think you know Andy Miller the other Andy Miller.
00:36:53.350 --> 00:37:14.700
Jonathan Powers: I I call him the seed Bet Andy. Yeah, right yeah, his his support and vision. And really, putting together the proposals for us to get this approved as a project at seed bed and everything like, just appreciate him so much for his his support and and and vision and leadership in this
00:37:14.710 --> 00:37:16.290
Jonathan Powers: Julie
00:37:16.850 --> 00:37:40.799
Jonathan Powers: Polly Jones, who was doing a lot of the proofreading of everything, and and going through just just meticulously going through things both Julie and Danny Key also played through all of the songs multiple times to make sure the typesets for good. There are no notes missing the words missing in the hymns and things like that. That's a lot of him to go through, and they did it, you know.
00:37:42.420 --> 00:37:56.300
Jonathan Powers: so appreciate that so much. Alison Klore was another person that helped with the indexing part of it. So all of those indexes getting the him, those some of them she was able to scan and get like straight, like a text to
00:37:56.310 --> 00:38:05.049
Jonathan Powers: a scan to text, you know, like scan the index, and then it makes the spreadsheet and kind of gets the words out there for you so that you can work with them
00:38:05.100 --> 00:38:35.090
Jonathan Powers: a lot of them, though she had to just enter manually, one at a time, and her husband, Christian Chlor helped as well with that. But, Allison I mean it. Goodness! I I just can't imagine what we would have done without her doing all of that. A number of other people, too, that just assisted with copyright things. Dick Torrance, Richard Torrid. He was the one that did typeset everything and put together, like all the pages. Typeset just means, you know, going from us, sending notes and work
00:38:35.100 --> 00:38:38.440
Jonathan Powers: to getting it, looking like it appears. And then
00:38:38.530 --> 00:38:43.790
Jonathan Powers: so he did all of that. He a number of the songs where
00:38:43.810 --> 00:38:56.040
Jonathan Powers: we just said, hey, look, this is a great hymn. but the arrangement of it yeah, I mean the melodies, the the melody, and the lyrics are what they are, but the arrangement of that is a copyrighted arrangement.
00:38:56.120 --> 00:39:12.610
Jonathan Powers: and there were a number of him, he said, Well, i'll just. I'll do with my own harmonization. I do my own arrangement. It'll be a little bit different, you know. Maybe, but that wasn't already in public domain, and he was able to do that to some some hymns. And he did just beautiful beautiful work
00:39:12.620 --> 00:39:29.340
Jonathan Powers: for us, and so I mean so many other people I could and should mention. But just those names. just shows like it takes, you know, this isn't just like sitting down so like what he's do we want to use? Let's just name a bunch of him, and then we'll just kinda publish him. It's like. No, I mean this. It was a long process, and so
00:39:29.350 --> 00:39:36.809
Jonathan Powers: lots and lots of time, and a whole lot of people working together for it, and every single one of them.
00:39:37.110 --> 00:39:50.289
Jonathan Powers: It was a joy, I mean we we just said this. It never felt like this great burden upon us, and like oh, my goodness, was this gonna be done? I mean excitement. When is this gonna be done? But not like I'm just done with this. I want to
00:39:50.440 --> 00:40:10.209
Andy Miller III: interesting. You bring up the some of the instances, and I just want to give my own thanks to all of those people, particularly one of the other Andy Miller's not just the other Andy Miller, but one of the other, Andy Miller. I know he's just found a lot of things that as we've talked about this movement and what's happening?
00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:13.260
It's something that is like.
00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:19.270
Andy Miller III: There's people behind the scenes who are curating data, putting things together.
00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:33.999
Andy Miller III: and he's one of those, and so so so thankful for all of the work that he's doing in that project, and all the all the folks at C bed i'm doing in my own research. I'm. Working on William Boost Ecclesiology, Jonathan. It's i'm enjoying this process, but one of the first things
00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:36.900
Andy Miller III: that he did in a publishing arena.
00:40:36.950 --> 00:40:38.460
Andy Miller III: It was a hymn.
00:40:38.560 --> 00:40:49.780
Andy Miller III: he put together a revival him, though this is 10 years before the savage army came into existence, and then he put one together early into the savage army when it was the Christian Mission.
00:40:50.050 --> 00:41:02.779
Andy Miller III: Dozens of other songbooks, as they came to be called. Well, it's interesting, like as i'm. Kind of discerning the theological emphasis in William Booth over Arch and Theology. I'm. Making the claim that
00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:07.129
Andy Miller III: personal eschatology as opposed to cosmic eschatology
00:41:07.170 --> 00:41:25.249
Andy Miller III: is the kind of primary way that William Booth thought about the mission of the Church. And when I say personal eschatology, i'm talking about the end of persons, Heaven held judgment and the like, and as opposed to like universal, like the redemption of all things.
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:43.890
Andy Miller III: views a millennium which are important piece of way and boost theology. To the reason I'm saying, this is, I've come to think like maybe the most prominent theme, and i'm this will have to be challenged academically. But i'm making the case the most prominent theme of William Bouchiology is a very clear doctrine of hell.
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:55.730
Andy Miller III: I don't. Maybe I don't like that particularly. I'd love to have an emphasis on something else. But nevertheless he really believes in hell so much so that in the first hymnals that he put together.
00:41:55.930 --> 00:41:58.799
we're whole sections on hell.
00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:02.659
Andy Miller III: You have the section now and then, also
00:42:02.740 --> 00:42:06.290
Andy Miller III: the the the categories of personal eschatology.
00:42:06.510 --> 00:42:15.929
Andy Miller III: Where are I like? Take up a quarter of the hymnol in it. Heaven, hell, judgment, I mean those those category, even
00:42:16.290 --> 00:42:35.429
Andy Miller III: anthropological categories. Theological anthropology, like what is the nature of the soul? Where will the soul spend its eternity. These are all like major things, and the reason I bring this up is not just to have somebody like you. I can talk to about these things, but as much it is just to say, like our emphasis in these things that we believe
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:49.090
Andy Miller III: generate like who we are as a as movements as church individuals within those movements are so important, and I love what i'm seeing in this handle, and that's why I want to encourage people to go online and get it if they can.
00:42:49.310 --> 00:42:58.200
Jonathan Powers: Yeah, that's a good point like those those theological themes and emphasis that do come out. one of the things that I I often
00:42:58.970 --> 00:43:07.240
Jonathan Powers: talk about it. And so for myself, some research i'm doing in writing it's what I want to develop. Some is a look at
00:43:07.900 --> 00:43:09.720
Jonathan Powers: kind of a
00:43:10.350 --> 00:43:11.479
Jonathan Powers: character
00:43:11.580 --> 00:43:12.620
Jonathan Powers: of
00:43:12.810 --> 00:43:18.899
Jonathan Powers: early Wesley, and him an early meth assembly of Wesley, and him that he in particular, Charles Wesley's him that he
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:31.660
Jonathan Powers: but this karigmatic character, and even looking at development of the karigma in that. And so in some ways, you could say that's what Booth is doing there's you in terms of like proclamation of the Gospel proclamation what that means for us.
00:43:31.670 --> 00:43:44.639
Jonathan Powers: And so what you see if you take like 4,000 tongues to sing, which you know the title of the Himal comes out of that. Him Our great Redeemer's praise. pluralized. Of course our great Redeemers praise that. My, but
00:43:45.200 --> 00:43:57.899
Jonathan Powers: what you see if you take the full original 18 verses of Charles Wesley's hem, which you know we don't usually sing anymore. It's it's paired down, but the full original poem that he wrote those 18 verses.
00:43:58.570 --> 00:44:12.050
Jonathan Powers: It has a movement to. It starts with doxology, cosmic doxology. Glory to God, and praise and love be ever ever given by saints below and states above the Church and earth, and heaven starts with that that tends to be the end of the him now. But it starts with that
00:44:12.070 --> 00:44:25.860
Jonathan Powers: doxology, and then it moves into testimony and talks about. This was that awakening experience of God donning on Charles Wesley's life. You know that the his heartwarming experience, basically you know
00:44:25.870 --> 00:44:32.380
Jonathan Powers: as he would say at his personal Pentecost, because his heartworm experience was 3 days before John Wesley's
00:44:32.390 --> 00:44:51.990
Jonathan Powers: and on the day of Pentecost. And so this personal Pentecost, where he awakened to God's love and assurance of God's care for him, and God's love for him and His acceptance as a child of God. and so you go from doxology to testimony. Here's Here's where my soul was until God came and just
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.780
Jonathan Powers: moved in a powerful way, and this is what God did. And then it goes from
00:44:56.360 --> 00:45:09.470
Jonathan Powers: doxology to testimony to proclamation. and proclamation now becomes a proclamation of the Gospel. Now let me tell you about this God. Let me tell you about Jesus. Who is this Jesus that has
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:23.010
Jonathan Powers: done this for me? You know. Jesus the name who conquers fear, You know. he just the the wonderful proclamations of he speaks, and listening to his voice.
00:45:23.020 --> 00:45:33.930
Jonathan Powers: new life, the dead receive. You know all of this. He breaks the power of cancelled sin. He says, to prison for like that's who Jesus is. So it goes from doxology to testimony. You know Doxology praise God.
00:45:34.170 --> 00:45:54.319
Jonathan Powers: Testimony, praise God Here is what he has done for me to a proclamation. Praise God! Here's what he has done for me. Here is who this God is, and then finally exhortation. And here's what he can do for you. Hear him, you death his crazy dumb, your loosen tongues employee, you know you harlots and all you hellish crew. You know
00:45:54.330 --> 00:46:17.870
Jonathan Powers: all of that, you know. know your Savior and he can forgive your sins and sends as great as mine. He can forgive yours, too. And so it's this exhortation that so this is krigma, you know to it. and and you see that embodied in Methodist preaching, and you see it in the hymnody. but that's what's beautiful is You have all these hymns, then, that become testimonies of God's grace
00:46:17.890 --> 00:46:21.330
Jonathan Powers: testimony of who got is and
00:46:21.860 --> 00:46:51.499
Jonathan Powers: and you have these emphasis that come out in that. So you have an emphasis on judgment and help. We. We've lost that a lot. Today you have an emphasis on death and and a judgment, but even just simply death and pilgrimage that come out of the eighteenth century we lost that with modern medicine, right like the W. Death is not. We're not facing it as much now. And there's not this sense of pilgrimage. in this life to get to the promised land that Christ is prepared for us. Right?
00:46:53.120 --> 00:47:06.750
Jonathan Powers: We don't see that so much in our hymns today a focus on it. But you look at things in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, you know, before the advent of modern medicine a a lot more hymns talk about it, and so it it
00:47:07.050 --> 00:47:15.290
Jonathan Powers: brings us back in, and it keeps it before us. So I I just love it. Sorry that was a whole lot.
00:47:15.390 --> 00:47:34.800
Andy Miller III: So we don't need to seeing just about our problems right like of like what our situation is in our time we we should thank. Yeah, it looks like we have people who are writing him. They're addressing our concerns, but it might be helpful for us to remember the great tradition as a whole one of the things I've also found in my research. You mentioned. even just quoting 1,000 tongues is saying
00:47:34.810 --> 00:47:51.330
Andy Miller III: it highlighted an important Wesley. Him now 4,000 times. The scene was important to seemingly in the early army, but in the way in Booth, but the one that comes up so regularly. That he'll quote in the middle of sermons and articles is Jesus. The name high overall
00:47:51.650 --> 00:48:08.749
Andy Miller III: and and that's in the handle to number 111. If you're falling along we can stay together. but we have no other argument. We have no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that he died for me. It it it above hell and heaven, all these type of emphasis.
00:48:08.790 --> 00:48:11.429
Andy Miller III: Now you talked about the 18 verses
00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:15.729
of 4,010 to the same. One thing. I feel like
00:48:15.770 --> 00:48:16.459
00:48:16.900 --> 00:48:18.450
I'm going to get in trouble. Some people
00:48:18.530 --> 00:48:19.680
Jonathan Powers: saying it.
00:48:20.060 --> 00:48:23.000
Andy Miller III: This Hendel has over a savage herming songbook
00:48:23.810 --> 00:48:25.040
Andy Miller III: that we have.
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:29.460
Andy Miller III: Get drum roll, please people all over the world who are online
00:48:29.510 --> 00:48:30.399
00:48:30.870 --> 00:48:32.429
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:34.010
Andy Miller III: of a balanced salvation
00:48:34.050 --> 00:48:36.589
Andy Miller III: find it find a Salvation Army. Him. No.
00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:46.210
Andy Miller III: in the last 60 years that has had all 7 verses but this him, though my friends, has all 7 verses of a balanced salvation.
00:48:46.600 --> 00:48:48.790
Jonathan Powers: I didn't know that it that
00:48:48.830 --> 00:49:05.180
Andy Miller III: more recent him, those in the session or didn't, I mean. I just assumed that they all like it's like, oh, maybe getting it to fit, or whatever somebody might challenge me on that. But I I thought we may have even the most recent him, though I think he'll get it, but I think that's 5.
00:49:05.190 --> 00:49:23.739
Andy Miller III: but to have all 7 now. Here, here's one you might remember. we both went to Asbury University molten family, and of course they're still many of us. So with us. like Al molten, taught psychology and Professor Yvonne molten taught in English department, and and still alive with our kids, and
00:49:23.850 --> 00:49:26.889
it tends to this savage army and Lexington. I believe
00:49:27.490 --> 00:49:36.809
Andy Miller III: her mother in law. They retired to Wilmore and ran the Savage Army Student Fellowship on a voluntary basis in their retirement.
00:49:36.910 --> 00:49:43.009
Andy Miller III: When she died. I I just I've heard this story. this would have been like in the Eightys.
00:49:43.300 --> 00:49:50.480
Andy Miller III: I believe Dr. Ron Holtz told me this story that they went, and they, the an ensemble, went and played for her, and she had
00:49:50.670 --> 00:49:55.709
Andy Miller III: some sort of memory loss. I don't know what exactly it was what she had
00:49:56.060 --> 00:50:00.150
but when the band came and played she sat up.
00:50:00.340 --> 00:50:04.609
Andy Miller III: and she sang all 7 verses of we'll balance salvation.
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:06.129
00:50:06.210 --> 00:50:19.249
Andy Miller III: Yeah, so it's it's just a the light for me to even at this moment. Now, i'm not a attendee. It's always from me church, but still like this. This song is a part of my identity, like I just so thankful for
00:50:19.310 --> 00:50:25.670
Jonathan Powers: all 7 verses. Yeah. Make their way in here for future generations as well. Yeah.
00:50:25.930 --> 00:50:45.660
Andy Miller III: Oh, that's cool. That's cool. Jonathan. Thanks so much for your time. I know you're You're grading. And I'm: I'm trying to get professors at West to build a seminar and finish their grading a lot going on this time of year. But yeah, I encourage folks to go check this out and just my little announces for it. It'd be me a lot for us if you could share a link to this on Facebook
00:50:45.730 --> 00:51:05.649
Andy Miller III: Twitter. Youtube Links. If you're interested in in more stuff. This comes from more to the story. You can go to my website, Andy Miller, the third.com that's Andy Miller, I I I I have an email list, and I send people free resource. If you sign up for that email list. It's 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. I'm also offering
00:51:05.660 --> 00:51:08.370
Andy Miller III: I from from December fifteenth
00:51:08.390 --> 00:51:27.149
Andy Miller III: all the way to December, thirty-first 50 off my study of Jude Contender, and if you use the code you can find out my social media. But if you use the code 2,023. You'll get 50 off for these 15 days. That's 6 weeks study that goes through those powerful 25 verses
00:51:27.210 --> 00:51:38.670
Jonathan Powers: challenging us to contend for the faith, Jonathan, you anything else you want to say before we go out? Yeah, I was to say that it the contender study is a great I mean, that is a fantastic study, and so important
00:51:38.830 --> 00:51:52.699
Jonathan Powers: for the church today. And so I yeah, just as you've been plugging the in the law Pl: plug your but it it really is, and and and very seriously, and and I think, even related to the heml these kinds of resources that
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:54.609
Jonathan Powers: that
00:51:54.750 --> 00:52:01.040
Jonathan Powers: draw us into the faith once delivered for all the saints are so important. And.
00:52:01.050 --> 00:52:19.250
Jonathan Powers: we need to avail ourselves of those means of grace that God has left us in the church today. So thank you for your work on that. And You have a wonderful study, and I've heard others many others. really highly commend that study. and so I I would just echo.
00:52:19.340 --> 00:52:35.160
Andy Miller III: Well, thanks, Jonathan. I appreciate the extra commercial there. No, no, it's great to be. I'm going to be in Wilmore in a few weeks. But when I go to will more everybody leave because I go during during holidays, maybe we'll be able to bump into each other there. Thanks for checking this out, everybody. God bless you!
00:52:35.550 --> 00:52:36.720
Jonathan Powers: Yep, God bless.