Andy Miller III
Cover Image for The Judas I Never Knew with Jerome Van Kuiken

The Judas I Never Knew with Jerome Van Kuiken

May 16, 2024

I had a blast connecting with Jerome Van Kuiken to talk about our mutual love of Jude. Here are the links to our conversation:

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Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast I am glad you are here. This is gonna be a fun episode because I am gonna geek out on the book of Jude. And as many of you know, who have listened to my podcast or followed it for a while that this is these sometimes just 2 pages in the Bible are 2 pages or one page, sometimes, that I'm incredibly passionate about. I think it's an important book for our time.

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Andy Miller III: and I have a friend who's written a book on Jude, and last summer I had a book come out on. Jude and I thought we were just Jude out here for a little bit. So we're going to do that in a few minutes. So I'm going to introduce him in just a minute.

00:10:34.050 --> 00:10:58.949
Andy Miller III: This podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And we are an amazing point in our history with more students than we've ever had. We're at a place where we're serving this amazing moment in the Wesleyan tradition as a global Methodist church is emerging. We have added more than 300 global Methodist pastors as students. And we're so honored for opportunities

00:10:59.040 --> 00:11:21.970
Andy Miller III: to serve the church at this time. So if you're interested in growing theologically and learning how to become a more effective pastor, we hope you check us out. We have bachelor's master's and doctoral degrees, a lay initiative called the Wesley Institute. This coming fall the well-known scholar, Robert Gagnon, will be teaching a course on the Bible and sexuality. You could audit that class, you could take it for credit.

00:11:21.970 --> 00:11:46.960
Andy Miller III: So we encourage you to go to for more information there, and I'm thankful to my friend Bill Roberts, who encouraged me to write my book on Jude. In the first place, I probably would have never done it without him. And he's somebody who's helped me make this podcast happen for a while. He's a financial planner who comes at that from a Christian perspective, and I would love for you to learn more about him if you're interested in thinking about your financial future.

00:11:47.100 --> 00:12:10.060
Andy Miller III: so you can find out by him at William H. And I hope people will subscribe and like or do whatever you need to do on social media for this podcast and if you sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the That's Andy Miller I will send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. It's an 8 page kind of how to

00:12:10.060 --> 00:12:23.990
Andy Miller III: a guide through the inductive Bible study method and a 45 min video where I give some ideas that I use in some of my preaching classes that help people go deeper in their study of Scripture. So I'd love for you to check that out at Andy Miller, the third

00:12:23.990 --> 00:12:24.980
Andy Miller III: dot com

00:12:25.530 --> 00:12:38.519
Andy Miller III: alright. I am so glad to welcome the podcast my friend, Dr. Jerome Van Kyken, who is a professor of Christian thought at Oklahoma, Wesleyan University, and a graduate of Wesley Biblical Seminary, Jerome. Welcome to the Podcast.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yes, thanks so much for having me, Andy.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I vote you and I just connected more just in the last few years. But I I've seen your riding for a while, and I love the clever way that you're able to, you know. Write about sophisticated, systematic theology, systemic theological topics at the same time, talk about spider, man and marvel and all kinds of interesting things. So I've I've enjoyed watching for a while. And I've wanted to have you on the podcast

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Andy Miller III: for for several, probably for a couple of years now. So I'm so glad to finally have you come on. And the reason I had you come on, as I mentioned in the introduction is, you have this book out and holding up for our friends for a watch on Youtube, the Judas we never knew. Now, Jerome, I'm gonna admit, like I I was. Really I was disappointed at first. I haven't told you this yet. I was disapp. I had my book on Jude. I had worked on it.

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Andy Miller III: and we're friends on Facebook, and I think I was probably 2 months away from having it in place to submit it.

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Andy Miller III: And I saw your you posted your contract with Sebast. I was like, oh, no, I was gonna submit it. But in God's timing you! There's room in the world for 2 books on June. So I'm so thankful. Yeah.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yes.

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Andy Miller III: So tell me.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Wesleyan perspective, right?

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Andy Miller III: Exactly is this interesting

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Andy Miller III: that we both felt felt led to this little book. And we're in, and not just like kind of like the broad Western perspective, and you and I come from a

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Andy Miller III: some might. Some might call us narrow like a perspective in the kind of evangelist tradition, too.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yum!

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Andy Miller III: So, Jerome, as a systematician, and I know some of the work that you've done kind of academically. It's interesting that you would go after. A Biblical book, much less a one of these like, have a small book like this. What what is it that led you to Jude.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Yeah, that's a really good question. When I was in seminary at Wbs for my master's work, I took courses with Gary Cockerall, who's, you know, retired now is New Testament professor there? Wbs. And he told all of us in the classes that

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Jerome Van Kuiken: we ought to each one find our own book of the Bible that we made our very own, and of course, for him that was Hebrews.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: and he spent his life, you know, writing about thinking about Hebrews for me my focus is on theology rather than Scripture per se. And so I needed a much smaller book. And so Jude drew me to it

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Jerome Van Kuiken: because it it has such interesting features to it, even though it's small and

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Jerome Van Kuiken: very much marginalized in in terms of the attention that people have paid to it. Historically, it has some really interesting features to it. And so then, once I graduated once, I've been teaching at university and in Bible College. Before that, you know, I've I've taught New Testament. I've even taught specialized courses in the general epistles, and so I've had some chance to work on the book of Jude specifically, and then, in 2,018, I was asked to

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Jerome Van Kuiken: lead Bible studies at a camp meeting out in Oregon, and I decided to focus on the Book of Jude. And so then this book came out of those studies, and I should mention that was the book of Jude, but then also the person of Jude, the man.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah, that's a whole other thing, too. Right?

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah, what the Gospels and Acts, and and first Corinthians, for instance, have to say about him out also.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I mean, that's it. There's 2 different areas to study. And I see, like you and I both went to many of the same resources. I was blown away by some of the things about Jude himself before before I get that. That's an interesting idea from Gary Cocker. Now you could have chose second or third, John, if you really wanted a short book.

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Andy Miller III: But what a great suggestion! Boy, I love getting to know Gary Cockerall. Since I've been here. Now he's emeritus faculty. He just still lives in the area. But those are the types of like little nuggets of wisdom you get from seminary professors that you just take, and you you never know.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

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Andy Miller III: Things are gonna come. What great advice! Now my experience with Jude was one where, when I went through it, I didn't have that great advice from a Gary Cockerall and seminary.

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Andy Miller III: I I I always read through it when I read through the Bible every year, and I always just thought it was a little weird. Just thought there was this strange sayings in in Westlands, in, and not now. Not talking denomination. Wesleyan, like you're connected. Your school is. But Wesleyans often like the ending, because it has this the Holy Spirit has power over. Send out to Him who's able to keep you from falling, and so I I

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Andy Miller III: maybe quoted that. But all the stuff in the middle just threw me off. And so I'm interested. W. Was it those type of interesting features, that it was a intellectual and challenge that drew you to it even in seminary.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Well, it. It certainly raises questions about the canonicity of the various books of that made it into Scripture, and then the ones that didn't. So those sorts of things. But then also, you know some of the strange things that has to say about angels and and those things. It. Certainly it has the Trinity going on in it, and and actually a very high Christology.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: And then the whole question of of God keeping us, and at the same time we need to keep ourselves in the love of God. So the divine and human activity, action and responsibility

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Jerome Van Kuiken: that's in salvation. So those are all.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, man, I'm so excited I hope we could talk about all those things. So let me. Let's just go ahead and talk about Jude himself as.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Exactly.

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Andy Miller III: Like so some people might even be confused. Because your book says the Judas, we never knew. Now I know where you're going there. But tell us like, let's even just look at the historical person of Jude. What is it that draws us to him? Many people when I bring it up. They just don't even realize that Jesus had siblings. Maybe they heard about the James Ossuary, but maybe that just kind of passed away. Maybe they know about James, but not any other siblings. And how could the Son of God, the eternal Son of God.

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Andy Miller III: have a sibling? So tell us about even this historical person, a Jude, and what what you discovered about them.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Yeah. And then part of the reason it's so confusing is that in our English translations in the Gospels he's called Judas.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: And then you get to this letter near the back of the New Testament, and it's called Jude, but it's the same word in Greek and in other languages, like if you look it up in Spanish or whatever. He's the same guy and and has the same name both places it's just in English, for some reason. We've we've

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Jerome Van Kuiken: use 2 different names or 2 different versions of the same name, which is confusing. But yeah, what we find out about him in in the Gospels is that Jesus siblings. They're listed out for us in in Mark and in Matthew as these 4 brothers, James and Jude, or Judas and Simon, and then Joseph or Joseph

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Jerome Van Kuiken: and then some sisters that Jesus has as well, and so that's raised some questions that that the Church has dealt with over the centuries in different ways about. Well, what exactly is their status? Are these, are these Joseph and Mary's biological children? Are they? In a sense, Mary's step, children that Joseph had by previous marriage are these just cousins, and and the wording is more flexible

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Jerome Van Kuiken: in that culture, and in like that language than we have so different Christian traditions have have taken different approaches to this. But what we do know about them is that in the Gospels they are not followers of Jesus. They don't believe in Jesus. In fact, at 1 point they even try and go, and they think that he's out of his mind, and so they try and get him and take him away from the crowds.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: so they don't believe in him during his ministry. But then, after his resurrection, very quickly, we find that they're participating with the disciples. They're praying in the upper room as they're waiting for Pentecost to happen, and then James, in particular, becomes very influential in the early Church. There in Jerusalem, specifically.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, it. I think that's such a fascinating piece is the in the the challenge with the the name change I I've often I I didn't trace this myself in my own study, but I I assume that the English challenge, like of translator named Judas, might even been relayed to fact that there was this other guy named Judas, who he didn't quite want to be associated with right later on.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I don't know if that's the case. Did you find anything about that? As to why the A. And because of that tradition of translate this way. It would be too confusing to all of a sudden, let's say in the next version of the nib to come out and say, Okay, the la. The second or last book of the Bible is Judas right.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah, did you?

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Andy Miller III: Find anything about. Why that happened.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Oh, I'm really not sure, because, you know, his his name is given as Judas in the Gospels, and then there's even like in the Gospel of John we find there's another Judas who is one of the 12 disciples, and and John's gospel makes clear. This is Judas not a scariest at 1 point, who asks Jesus a certain question. So there are other Judas's

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Jerome Van Kuiken: yeah. About half a dozen judges actually in the New Testament who are who are named. And so why, all of a sudden, when you get to this letter? The translators translated this very same name in Greek as Jude instead of Judas. I I'm really not sure.

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Andy Miller III: Maybe we can ask them in the new heavens and new, or if we can figure out what was going on there.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Do have something similar in Jesus genealogy, where you have a Jacob listed as one of his ancestors, but it's the very same name as James.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, so yeah.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: When we get to Jesus

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Jerome Van Kuiken: sibling James.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: the very same Greek word is translated James, as is translated Jacob elsewhere in the New Testament. So you get those weird things happening.

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Andy Miller III: But we do have a little bit more of a clue coming in about Jude, because it does specify. Now again, it's like not 100%. But we have extra non canonical material that helps us. But then, even in the text of Jude, now, I'm talking about the book that we, you know both are talking about it, says the brother of James. So this gives us a little bit more of a clue that this is likely most likely the brother of James, therefore the half brother of Jesus, and.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

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Andy Miller III: You mentioned the other traditions, too. One thing to keep in mind, and I do have listeners for Roman Catholic tradition. One of the reasons, but of course, that there there's a challenge with thinking of Jude as a brother. Jesus is a perpetual virginity of Mary. Right? That that really holds folks back from thinking that they still have a high regard for Jude in the Roman Catholic tradition.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah, patron saint of lost causes. And of course, we see on TV every so often the the St. Jude's

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Hospital and research fundraisers for for fighting cancer. That kind of thing.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, so it's very. It's very prominent. Now. I I love the idea that the I wish I wish we had the account. But someday we will someday we'll know how Jesus's brothers came to believe in the resurrection, but we know that they did and one thing that's fascinating me you might have saw this is that

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Andy Miller III: Richard Bacham has an interesting book about Jesus's siblings. And then he's also done work on on just on Jude, second Peter and Jude for the word Biblical commentary. But what I found so interesting about that earlier work he did just on the siblings is that he thinks that what we pick up in the Book of Jude and James

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Andy Miller III: gives us a clue for what the Nazareth type of Judaism would have been like that. These traditions might have been the type of the the.

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Andy Miller III: not necessarily Scripture, but the the the writings that would have been a part of that community. What would you.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

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Andy Miller III: You're shaking your head. So maybe you read that, too. What do you think of that? Thesis.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah, well, I don't have any problem with believing that there was a lot of this. What we call untestamental literature that's floating around. It's the popular literature of the day. There in in Palestine, in in the Israel of of Jesus Day, just like we have plenty of popular literature. And now movies and things like that that everybody knows. You know, 1 one

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Jerome Van Kuiken: way to think about this is in 500 years from now, or a thousand years from now. If if an archaeologist were to dig up several homes of of

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Jerome Van Kuiken: early 20 first century Christians and see what was on their bookshelves, or what was on their streaming service, or that sort.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: You know there are lots of things that are popular and that have been. If you think back to like Frank Freddie, this present darkness, or the.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Left behind series or Rick Warren's purpose driven life, or now the chosen series, those sorts of things or veggie tales. You know there are all these things that are very popular, that are connected in some way with Scripture. And yet they wouldn't be canon.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: But they are very influential and popular.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I I love the the questions about a canon that come up. And I think that that's a challenge for folks. And just, you know a a fresh reading of the text is, you think, oh, do I have to do? I have to affirm, then, that there was this duel between

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Andy Miller III: Mo. The archangel Michael, and Satan over Moses's body. I don't read that anywhere else in the Bible. Is that is that indeed true? Now, some people might. Some people might

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Andy Miller III: not like my answer here.

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Andy Miller III: I I care. I think there's a good likelihood that there is some revelation of God to somebody at some point to chronicle that fact. But I'm

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Andy Miller III: the the point which I come from in in emphasizing, as we do as you and I both do in kind of this Wesley and holiness. Tradition of the inerrancy of Scripture isn't necessarily meaning that all of those things had to happen, but they are connected to the truth that Jude or the author of Jude and I, I claim to be, is trying to accomplish like, what is he trying to do like. The the truth is, not necessarily did this metaphysical battle happen?

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Andy Miller III: And I but and I'm very fine, I kinda hope it did. But the the point is like Jude's trying to make a point to his people. And so, like you, I've used a movie theme to describe it. I am way too much into the rocky movies. Okay, just I. I like, I maybe most of them memorize. But I I don't believe that there was a guy named Rocky Balboa in the mid seventies, who is working for a mob, and went to fought fight Apollo Creek. But

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Andy Miller III: and idea

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Andy Miller III: still motivates me, and I think like that's similar to what's happening in Jude is like, there's this, there's these stories that are alluded to, and some of them it might be historical. But it. It's it's almost like not. It's not relevant to what Jude's trying to do.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Well, it's the same thing we see in a different culture that Paul does in Act 17, when he's speaking on Mars Hill at the Areopagus. He's addressing a bunch of pagan philosophers

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Jerome Van Kuiken: don't have any background in the Old Testament or anything. And so what we find that he does is. He's quoting from him to Zeus that some Greek poet has written. He quotes from a play or or philosophical writing. He he draws from the popular culture of his Greek listeners.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: And that doesn't mean that the hymn to Zoos as a whole is inspired by God. But it does mean that Paul's use of it is inspired, and so that element that he quotes in the way that he quotes it, the purpose for which he uses it

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Jerome Van Kuiken: comes under the overshadowing of of the Holy Spirit's inspiration.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: so that it's effective for the purpose that Paul uses it.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah, that I mean, that's a beautiful way for us to think about many of the challenges and kind of the the straw man argument that comes, strawman arguments that come up about inerrancy and the like. Is it like what is what is trying to be accomplished

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Andy Miller III: by this text? And it's it does so, and by the power of the Holy Spirit it accomplishes what it intended to accomplish. I love that now I'm interested too. Well, let me come in to Jude. I wanted to mention one other thing with that.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I,

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Andy Miller III: because I thought it was so strange. I never touched it as a preacher for 15 years.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

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Andy Miller III: I never preached a sermon. Maybe you might find like, I said, quoting the benediction. But then I heard of another preacher

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Andy Miller III: and using it. And my actually my sister-in-law told me her preacher actually may. Some people in my audience might know Darryl Diddle who's at the Free Methodist Church in Wilmore. That he preached a great sermon that was helpful to her family on human sexuality.

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Andy Miller III: and as a pastor I was often looking for. How do I have an on ramp into addressing the most glaring problem presenting issue of our time? And so I said, Well, if Daryl Dill did that, let me take a look. And so I actually thank Daryl Diddle I so I wrote him a letter, and then I said, Oh, my goodness! The book of Jude has all so much to say. It just took a little bit of work for me to get to it.

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Andy Miller III: Particularly as it relates to sexuality and some challenges within the church.

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Andy Miller III: So book a book like first Peter talks about challenges coming from outside the church, but Jude is addressing a concern inside the church. You wanna tell us about what you found about that challenge that came inside the church.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Yeah. And I think that's another reason that the book of Jude is somewhat off putting to people is because Jude can sound like a scold. Right? Well, he's just going on and on and on at length about these false teachers. But I've compared it to

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Jerome Van Kuiken: the like the all state ads that we see sometimes on TV with mayhem right.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: And you know, mayhem's running around doing this crazy, wild stuff. And and

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Jerome Van Kuiken: it's a way of trying to communicate to the audience that, hey! There are things that happen in life that that chaotic things happen, that accidents that happen. You need to be aware of them, and you need to be prepared for them, and of course they're trying to promote all state. You're in good hands with all state. And so in the same way, the Book of Jude, is he? He doesn't have access to a budget to produce.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: You know, an ad that you see on TV. This is the this is the way that you advertise in in his day. This is the way that you do a public service announcement. It's by writing a letter, and so he uses all the same sort of graphic imagery, the colorfulness of an all State mayhem commercial

00:32:05.110 --> 00:32:13.029
Jerome Van Kuiken: in this little letter, and he's doing it to warn, watch out for these spiritual con artists. Watch out for these scammers

00:32:13.070 --> 00:32:19.080
Jerome Van Kuiken: who are trying to take advantage of you, exploit you sexually and financially and spiritually.

00:32:19.260 --> 00:32:23.414
Jerome Van Kuiken: and then you're in good hands. You're in God's hands.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's.

00:32:24.350 --> 00:32:36.889
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yourselves in the love of God. And then he goes one step further. You never see in those all State commercials. You never see anybody turning around and saying, Now, mayhem, you need to straighten up and convert, you know.

00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:37.560
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure, yeah.

00:32:37.560 --> 00:33:00.979
Jerome Van Kuiken: Good. But actually, when you get to the end of June's letter, he says, show mercy also. Keep, you know. Keep yourselves pure. Don't, don't listen to these scams, these deceptions, but then show mercy to those who are doubting and disputing, and snatch them out of the fire, and so he calls for showing a careful, deserving, but real mercy

00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:06.719
Jerome Van Kuiken: towards those who have been duped, and even to the false teachers themselves.

00:33:07.030 --> 00:33:30.449
Andy Miller III: Yes, oh, I love that. And and there's a little bit of debate you might have see seen this in the literature as to whether or not in verse 22. Them be merciful to those who doubt if that's referring to the false teachers or not. Some think it might just be referring to those who are influenced. I I'll you know I can't help but think it has to have them in mind, too, like we there, nobody's totally gone like, and.

00:33:30.830 --> 00:33:33.691
Andy Miller III: Starts off with this idea of saying

00:33:34.310 --> 00:33:39.690
Andy Miller III: the in the in ib, I think, translates it in in a good way, that there are people who

00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:47.350
Andy Miller III: just hear these words, preachers, listen. Okay. You could use these exact words secretly slipped in

00:33:47.550 --> 00:34:02.009
Andy Miller III: like these, describe these people who have slipped into that congregation and are influencing them. And Jerome, we're recording this just a week after what's happened in the United Methodist Church, the global Methodist Church with the

00:34:02.410 --> 00:34:13.039
Andy Miller III: United Methodist Church General Conference. And I think we see this lived out like we see this happening in our time in in very similar ways. And it's in that context

00:34:13.210 --> 00:34:27.250
Andy Miller III: that Jude says, to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, Jerome. Some people might use, and I've heard it used the the contend for the faith once for all delivered as a way to

00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:39.900
Andy Miller III: Say, well, my opinion on these very specific matters must be right? So I'm contending like, so that that can be abused. What what did you find about this this expression, this kind of thesis statement that.

00:34:40.290 --> 00:34:45.040
Andy Miller III: Faith? Of what that implies, and what what is the faith.

00:34:45.310 --> 00:34:54.929
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right. Well, I think that's in contrast with what he says that the false teachers are pushing, which is, they pervert the grace

00:34:55.170 --> 00:35:13.129
Jerome Van Kuiken: of God into a license for immorality, and deny Jesus Christ, or only sovereign and Lord. So there you have the the core of the faith, is the grace of God that brings salvation. That's meant not only to forgive our sins, but also to transform our lives.

00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:19.770
Jerome Van Kuiken: Transformed the way that we actually live. And then it's centred in who is Jesus Christ?

00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:20.910
Jerome Van Kuiken: So

00:35:20.970 --> 00:35:27.799
Jerome Van Kuiken: Christology, Soteriology. The the core of the faith. Is those 2 2 things.

00:35:28.090 --> 00:35:37.470
Andy Miller III: And it also has. I mean there is that sense, too, by talking about immorality. They turn God's grace into a license licentiousness, and you kind of get that word, then.

00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.539
Andy Miller III: that it's just

00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:55.019
Andy Miller III: the the content of the faith, the the reality of Jesus. And you think Jesus Christ our only sovereign and Lord one. The only places that type of expression is used. This, like, as you said earlier, a high Christology. At the same time, behavior.

00:35:55.120 --> 00:36:04.949
Andy Miller III: behavior, and like faith and works like are a part of this expression here at the very beginning. Well, what is it that they're doing? Well, they're they're using God's grace as a license to sin.

00:36:05.190 --> 00:36:06.230
Andy Miller III: and

00:36:06.260 --> 00:36:08.490
Andy Miller III: by the examples he gives.

00:36:08.740 --> 00:36:21.049
Andy Miller III: it ends up. Seeing we, seeing this as something is probably connected to sexual morality damage. Do you think it's going too far for us to say that that it's probably what's going on here that like.

00:36:21.080 --> 00:36:24.099
Andy Miller III: based upon the examples he's talking about sexual immorality.

00:36:25.098 --> 00:36:29.881
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah, that's that's half the half of the problem. You have them,

00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:49.054
Jerome Van Kuiken: using God's grace as a license for immorality. And so that would specifically be sexual immorality, and and his examples that follow the illustrations from the Old Testament and such bear that out. And then the other half of it is that they are

00:36:49.520 --> 00:36:56.150
Jerome Van Kuiken: somehow defaming or or speaking ill of God, God's angels.

00:36:56.190 --> 00:37:01.810
Jerome Van Kuiken: the heavenly order, that kind of thing. And and so they're combining this.

00:37:04.340 --> 00:37:20.709
Jerome Van Kuiken: mysticism, this this offbeat spirituality with sexual immorality as well. And certainly we see similar sorts of things happening across church history where you have various heresies and cults, and and

00:37:20.950 --> 00:37:24.359
Jerome Van Kuiken: so forth, where people combine some sort of

00:37:26.290 --> 00:37:26.960
Jerome Van Kuiken: you

00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:40.810
Jerome Van Kuiken: spirituality that that gets the license to excuse various forms of sexual immorality, too.

00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:53.140
Andy Miller III: Yes, let's just jump into that. Verse 8. That talks about some of this which you alluded to. I'll just read the niv's version in the very same way. Of course, that's pointing us back

00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:55.309
Andy Miller III: to the example to use. I'm just going to

00:37:55.330 --> 00:38:18.810
Andy Miller III: Bullet Point. Those for us. He's talking about those the Israelites who did not at did not accept that God is, gonna lead them to the promised land. And thus, you know, did not make it Sodom and Gomorrah, and then also the probably an allusion to Genesis 6. The angels who did not regard their their proper place. Now

00:38:18.810 --> 00:38:34.140
Andy Miller III: go to either of our books to find out more about those verses. Okay, but but then but this is in the same way. So like that, like those people who violated their position, likely connected to sexual immorality. In some way this is in the very same way, on the strength of their dreams.

00:38:34.390 --> 00:38:38.699
Andy Miller III: These ungodly people pollute their own bodies.

00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:44.939
Andy Miller III: reject authority, and heap abuse on celestial beans.

00:38:45.040 --> 00:39:03.850
Andy Miller III: This is one of those verses where you look at and say, okay, I believe in angels, but I don't quite know that I've ever heaped abuse on celestial beans. I I'd like to hear how you interpreted this verse, and what you found, and just compare that with where where I landed.

00:39:04.340 --> 00:39:05.769
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right. Well, there.

00:39:21.961 --> 00:39:23.070
Andy Miller III: I just lost you, Jerome.

00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:33.640
Andy Miller III: Oh, man.

00:39:34.470 --> 00:39:38.580
Andy Miller III: we'll be able to pick up if if you're able to get back on there. Can you hear me?

00:39:40.490 --> 00:39:41.980
Andy Miller III: Oh, you're muted now, but.

00:39:42.370 --> 00:39:43.349
Jerome Van Kuiken: Okay, there, we go.

00:39:43.350 --> 00:39:44.080
Andy Miller III: Okay. So I.

00:39:44.080 --> 00:39:44.520
Jerome Van Kuiken: Alright!

00:39:44.520 --> 00:39:56.220
Andy Miller III: We can just pick up for that question. Could mine cut off there? I'll give Jeff a 3, 2, one where I just where I stop the question you can just pick up after so, and in 3, 2, one.

00:39:56.870 --> 00:40:13.090
Jerome Van Kuiken: All right. Yeah, that's a good question. And there are a couple of ways to potentially interpret it one way. And that's the way that Richard Balkam has suggested is that the angels are seen as guardians of God's law, the law that he gave to Moses.

00:40:13.090 --> 00:40:30.499
Jerome Van Kuiken: and as the guardians of of the social order and the ethical order. So you you think about even like in the beginning of the Book of Revelation, where the letters to the 7 churches are actually addressed to the angels of the 7 churches, or in Daniel, chapter 10, where you have.

00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:36.370
Jerome Van Kuiken: like all these these angelic beings, who are the princes or the the guardians of

00:40:36.370 --> 00:40:53.020
Jerome Van Kuiken: various nations. And so one way of interpreting this is that these false teachers are slandering, are speaking ill of these angels as the guardians of the social order or the ethical order, and saying, You don't have to listen to to

00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:58.900
Jerome Van Kuiken: God's law anymore. You can do whatever you want right.

00:40:58.900 --> 00:40:59.370
Andy Miller III: Yes.

00:40:59.370 --> 00:41:00.189
Jerome Van Kuiken: You've been.

00:41:00.560 --> 00:41:15.760
Jerome Van Kuiken: send sexually or in any other way. The other option would be. Paul talks about how the devil even the devil disguises himself as an angel of light to go about deceiving people.

00:41:15.870 --> 00:41:29.969
Jerome Van Kuiken: And in the beginning of the Book of Galatians, he talks about how, even if an angel from heaven were to preach to you a different gospel than the one that we've preached to you, let him be condemned. And so it's

00:41:30.250 --> 00:41:47.399
Jerome Van Kuiken: also possible that rather than seeing the angels, as being these stuffy custodians of the law that we can now ignore. It may be that these false teachers are saying, yeah, do whatever you want. The angels have told us so.

00:41:47.690 --> 00:41:48.859
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Angel.

00:41:48.860 --> 00:41:50.820
Jerome Van Kuiken: Could be that they're being co-opted.

00:41:50.890 --> 00:41:56.609
Jerome Van Kuiken: And and I use the illustration. Actually, a really contemporary illustration.

00:41:56.610 --> 00:41:57.700
Andy Miller III: This is great. Yeah.

00:41:57.700 --> 00:42:03.749
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah. A few years back there was a big flap in the media about the gospel of Jesus, wife.

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:04.600
Andy Miller III: Yes. Yeah.

00:42:04.950 --> 00:42:15.530
Jerome Van Kuiken: And there was a Harvard scholar who was convinced that this was legitimate. This was an early document from early centuries.

00:42:15.560 --> 00:42:36.969
Jerome Van Kuiken: and that it described Jesus as having a wife and and that kind of thing well, it all turned out to be a scam. It was a forgery, but the forger who was involved. He he was an immigrant from Germany, living in Florida, and he was a pornographer, and he used his wife as his porn star.

00:42:36.990 --> 00:42:51.585
Jerome Van Kuiken: but she was actually a willing participant in it, and she wrote a book of her own. She published a book of her own that was supposedly these messages from angels that she was receiving while being involved in

00:42:52.450 --> 00:42:56.870
Jerome Van Kuiken: pornographic and and basically prostitution relationships.

00:42:56.940 --> 00:43:02.360
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so here she's claiming these angels are speaking to me while I'm sleeping with all these other men.

00:43:02.600 --> 00:43:10.469
Jerome Van Kuiken: So that would be a modern illustration of potentially one way to understand what these false teachers are saying and doing.

00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:33.970
Andy Miller III: It's interesting. And I I I think there's something connected with the idea of the the angels of the community possibly like giving giving license. And of course, this license to immorality this connects into the illustration that Jude uses later of balim so like, when we have Baleam, what is it that Baleam does? And you know most people just think about Balim coming.

00:43:33.980 --> 00:43:55.729
Andy Miller III: and and his arrival, and his donkey speaking back to him. And then Balum tries to utter curses, but then they're converted into blessings. But and so there isn't actually a problem of balim in the narrative of of of numbers 22. Except for that like this strange thing. How he turns it down and then ends up.

00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:56.050
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

00:43:56.050 --> 00:44:18.909
Andy Miller III: Through. But the later canonical dialogue show shows us that he was one who led people astray. He led them towards sexual immorality. So the actual story doesn't have that. But th, now, now, this is this is me being creative with this. So so I I present the idea that it's possible that when Balim tried to curse them

00:44:19.080 --> 00:44:25.020
Andy Miller III: he tried, and he gave it his best shot, all of his prophetic energy to try a curse. It didn't work.

00:44:25.160 --> 00:44:41.209
Andy Miller III: but then it's like as if he goes to the Israelites and says, Look, guys, I tried. You can't do it like I can't. I can't curse you in any way. You can do whatever you want like. There's nothing that's going to be able. And what is it? What is was what's balim? An example of

00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:48.980
Andy Miller III: somebody who leads the Israelites away, and so that, like the similar idea of what you're describing with the angels.

00:44:49.890 --> 00:45:09.800
Andy Miller III: I wanted to add, you, you hit on this a little bit. There also is the idea in other various places that angels were the delivers of God's Word. So in acts 7, with Steven stoning like, there's an allusion to that type of idea. And so, if violating

00:45:10.419 --> 00:45:26.380
Andy Miller III: the revelation it comes if you, if God's given a clear deliverance of His word, if your actions speak against that similar to the idea of the angels of the community. If you're violating the ethical restrictions or guidelines.

00:45:27.045 --> 00:45:32.394
Andy Miller III: Then you are heaping abuse, or it could be translated, slandering angels.

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:38.420
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah. And we do see, you know, in the next century a after June

00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:44.849
Jerome Van Kuiken: wrote his letter with the rise of Gnosticism, and then another at heresy called Marcinism.

00:45:45.020 --> 00:45:57.590
Jerome Van Kuiken: Both of those tended to claim that the the spiritual powers, the the angels, or or celestial powers that are running this present world are evil.

00:45:57.810 --> 00:46:02.050
Jerome Van Kuiken: and including the God of Israel. And so

00:46:02.180 --> 00:46:12.680
Jerome Van Kuiken: Marcian and some of the Gnostics would say that Israel's God wasn't actually the real God. He was just deceiving the Israelites into thinking that.

00:46:12.690 --> 00:46:24.640
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so he was sort of an evil impostor. Well, obviously, that's blasphemous. So if if these, if these false teachers were saying anything along those lines.

00:46:25.368 --> 00:46:29.040
Jerome Van Kuiken: Then that would definitely count a slander blasphemy.

00:46:29.870 --> 00:46:34.609
Andy Miller III: Yeah, interesting. Oh, I'm so. And did you do your doctoral work on the church fathers?

00:46:35.491 --> 00:46:40.740
Jerome Van Kuiken: They were included in it. Yes, yes, I put them in dialogue with some modern theologians.

00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:55.063
Andy Miller III: Yeah, man, I I'll whenever every every now they're reading your book and is hearing these ideas, some of the things you said I'm like, Oh, man, I wish I would have known that like even this piece about Marcy, and that's great. The okay. Then the next verse is one of the

00:46:55.320 --> 00:47:13.179
Andy Miller III: hardest verses as well. So I'm gonna read that as as well. I I can remember a clear moment where my wife and I were having our our, we. We generally have our quiet time at the same time in the morning, and I remember she had just read Jude, and then she read these 2 verses to me I don't know. 10 years before I had ever really studied Jude.

00:47:13.180 --> 00:47:13.590
Jerome Van Kuiken: That is the.

00:47:13.590 --> 00:47:17.650
Andy Miller III: And what if? And I she kind of threw her hands up and asked me

00:47:17.700 --> 00:47:45.599
Andy Miller III: what I thought, and I said, I don't know. I. There's gotta be something going on this back. And so. But I'm thankful that that once we get behind way, maybe what's happening here, there is a application for us, and I think you and I both are able to come up with a few things. But here it is, verse 9. But even the Archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander. But, said the Lord, rebuke you

00:47:46.675 --> 00:47:47.640
Andy Miller III: So

00:47:48.076 --> 00:47:57.259
Andy Miller III: I don't remember this in the Old Testament. What's going on here? We know about Moses's body that Moses' body nobody knew where is buried. But that's it.

00:47:58.230 --> 00:48:27.540
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah. Well, what I compare it to in my book is fan fiction. Right, he has the the end of Moses's life in Deuteronomy is kind of anti-climactic right? He he goes up, he sees the promised land, he goes off somewhere, nobody knows, and is buried by God, and nobody even knows to this day where he's buried, and and it's like, Well, wait a minute here. This is Moses. He is the the ultimate prophet of the Old Testament, and surely he deserves a better send off than that.

00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:30.935
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so what we have is that

00:48:31.570 --> 00:48:54.090
Jerome Van Kuiken: During the intertestamental period there are a couple of works called the Assumption of Moses and the Testament of Moses that are written, and Jude seems to be drawing from one of those accounts that again, like all good fanfiction, it fills in the gaps or answers the what ifs that? The canonical version of whatever we're watching or reading leaves

00:48:54.487 --> 00:49:04.029
Jerome Van Kuiken: under undeveloped or underdeveloped. So in this story the testament of Moses story, what you have is, when Moses dies, the devil shows up

00:49:04.030 --> 00:49:18.850
Jerome Van Kuiken: and the angels come to to carry Moses soul away, and the devil shows up as well, and accuses Moses of being a murderer right? Because he killed that Egyptian slave driver back way back when and so

00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.640
Jerome Van Kuiken: the devil is saying his body belongs to me.

00:49:23.070 --> 00:49:43.819
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so there's this legal dispute that breaks out. And it's kinda like, you know John Grisham, novel mashed up with something Frank Peretti might write right the supernatural courtroom drama where you have Michael the Archangel versus the devil, and Michael knows he doesn't have the authority. He's not the judge right.

00:49:43.820 --> 00:49:44.470
Andy Miller III: Yeah.

00:49:44.776 --> 00:49:47.230
Jerome Van Kuiken: He's just in a sense, the defense attorney.

00:49:47.240 --> 00:49:56.340
Jerome Van Kuiken: and so he doesn't have the authority to throw out the case all on his own. So instead, he appeals to the judge, and he appeals to the Lord. The Lord rebuke you

00:49:56.860 --> 00:50:10.899
Jerome Van Kuiken: instead of taking it on himself. And it's actually, you know there's a bit of of practical application to today. Sometimes I've been in church services and and Christian settings, and I'm sure you have, too, where it seems like

00:50:11.750 --> 00:50:25.199
Jerome Van Kuiken: The whoever is praying gets so focused on praying against the devil, and rebuking the devil, and and the prayer almost instead of being directed towards God. It almost starts being directed more towards the devil than God.

00:50:25.200 --> 00:50:25.830
Andy Miller III: Yes. Yeah.

00:50:25.830 --> 00:50:29.889
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so this is a healthy reminder to us that

00:50:30.690 --> 00:50:36.699
Jerome Van Kuiken: job of rebuking the devil is in the Lord's hands. We can. We can appeal to the Lord to do that.

00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:40.510
Jerome Van Kuiken: but we we shouldn't be taking it on ourselves.

00:50:40.700 --> 00:50:55.429
Andy Miller III: Yes. Amen, I, yeah, yeah, exactly. I found something very similar like thinking. And you can apply that. You're in. Many, many charismatic traditions have actually actually emphasized this verse, and I I think it's helpful for them to do that.

00:50:55.520 --> 00:51:22.730
Andy Miller III: And but but he's depending upon a higher reality and not their own experience. Notice, even at beginning of verse 8, it says, based on their own experience. And that's one of the chief charges against our time is that we want to lean into our feelings, our subjective reality, to determine reality, instead of leaning into the fact that there is a higher plane

00:51:22.730 --> 00:51:28.150
Andy Miller III: that we can land on and like it's, it's not on us like. So even though it seemed like.

00:51:28.601 --> 00:51:51.780
Andy Miller III: Michael had a pretty clear case against Satan. He yeah, it seems like he should win like you said. If it's a legal dispute, he's the defense attorney, it it's all there, but he does. Even Michael didn't do that. Michael leaned in on the revelation of God and and and God's ultimate authority to judge. So yeah, I think that I think there's something

00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:57.850
Andy Miller III: to that for us, even when we're confronted with some of the I mean, I I think of some of the

00:51:58.050 --> 00:52:22.180
Andy Miller III: the sexual confusion of our time as be being heretical at to a certain degree. Leading people to a place where they're embracing something that could, if continued, lead to eternal destruction. So I don't say that lightly, but at the same time, like I think, that Jude gives us some clear advice in this situation.

00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:26.230
Andy Miller III: Alright! Oh, I think

00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:28.090
Andy Miller III: I think we froze again.

00:52:30.450 --> 00:52:31.260
Andy Miller III: Okay.

00:52:33.910 --> 00:52:35.849
Andy Miller III: Jerome, let me know when you come back on.

00:52:38.930 --> 00:52:41.159
Andy Miller III: I don't know if it's my Internet or yours.

00:52:55.730 --> 00:52:58.299
Andy Miller III: Me see if I have a tech number where I can text you.

00:53:37.370 --> 00:53:39.230
Andy Miller III: Let me know if you come in there.

00:53:56.410 --> 00:53:57.601
Andy Miller III: let me know if you

00:54:16.540 --> 00:54:21.149
Andy Miller III: all right. Here we go. Thanks for your help here, Jeff, whenever you get to record this

00:54:21.922 --> 00:54:25.299
Andy Miller III: and edit this 3, 2, one

00:54:25.400 --> 00:54:50.540
Andy Miller III: alright friends. Jerome had had a little bit of challenge with some some Internet outages in his area. He came to us. He was coming out from Oklahoma Tornado Alley, so we had some challenges there. But, Jerome, you said something at the beginning of our conversation, and I was so happy to hear you say this. This word that comes up multiple times comes at the beginning and the end of June. You know where I'm going

00:54:51.014 --> 00:54:57.650
Andy Miller III: keep. There's this dynamic interaction where we keep. But we are also kept.

00:54:58.379 --> 00:55:06.510
Andy Miller III: Talk to me about what this means in our what, how this maybe even, can be a resource for the Westland tradition.

00:55:07.040 --> 00:55:15.819
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Yeah. So at the beginning of the book of Jude. He talks about how we, his, his audience, is being kept

00:55:15.830 --> 00:55:17.440
Jerome Van Kuiken: by Christ.

00:55:17.813 --> 00:55:25.580
Jerome Van Kuiken: and then he returns at the end of his letter to that same theme, and he says, Keep yourselves in God's love.

00:55:26.411 --> 00:55:41.180
Jerome Van Kuiken: But actually the word keep shows up a few other places as well. He talks about the angels. This is, let's see in verse 6, yeah. In. In verse 6, the angels who did not keep their positions of authority.

00:55:41.800 --> 00:56:10.999
Jerome Van Kuiken: These he, God, has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment. So this language of keeping and being kept, shows up in in a positive way at the beginning and end of the letter, in relationship to us, but then also in a negative way, in relation to the angels there in verse 6. And so, in a sense, what happened to the angel serves as a warning right. If we do not keep ourselves

00:56:11.030 --> 00:56:21.500
Jerome Van Kuiken: in the love of God. If we don't hold on to the blessings, the benefits that we've received, then it is possible, like those angels, to forfeit

00:56:21.530 --> 00:56:29.890
Jerome Van Kuiken: the blessings and the the grace of God that we've received and end up, instead of being kept for salvation being kept for judgment.

00:56:30.010 --> 00:56:34.829
Jerome Van Kuiken: Now Jude writes that in order to

00:56:34.850 --> 00:56:36.510
Jerome Van Kuiken: encourage.

00:56:37.050 --> 00:56:49.269
Jerome Van Kuiken: not not to just sort of scare them to death and make them feel hopeless, but to encourage them towards being responsible. Kind of Randy Maddox's classic phrase of responsible grace. God gives us the grace

00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:52.640
Jerome Van Kuiken: and we're responsible with with how we use it.

00:56:53.850 --> 00:56:54.600
Andy Miller III: Yes, so.

00:56:54.600 --> 00:56:55.260
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah.

00:56:55.260 --> 00:56:58.340
Andy Miller III: Monogistic and synergistic approach.

00:56:58.340 --> 00:56:59.950
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yes, yes.

00:57:00.650 --> 00:57:09.470
Andy Miller III: It says Balance, and then I I love, too, that at the very end not only do you keep ourselves, but now to Him who.

00:57:09.470 --> 00:57:09.900
Jerome Van Kuiken: Hmm.

00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:12.789
Andy Miller III: Able to keep you from stumbling.

00:57:12.950 --> 00:57:13.830
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Is it.

00:57:13.830 --> 00:57:31.789
Andy Miller III: This isn't just a get out of hell sort of piece. So okay, I don't want those change of darkness that talks about in verse 6, I kept an eternal darkness. But there also is this picture that we can be kept from stumbling. Now, Jerome, that's just obviously hyperbole. It can't really be something that happens right?

00:57:32.560 --> 00:57:43.150
Jerome Van Kuiken: Well, I mean, there are a lot of things in the book of Jude that we definitely need to take seriously and not just dismiss as hyperbole where the other.

00:57:44.350 --> 00:58:03.850
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I mean, do do you think that this this, in this first often used in the holiness tradition to refer to the opportunity that's available for believers that sometimes, like the traditional languages, has been used the privilege of believers to be sanctified. Do you think that this can fit into a doctrine of sanctification.

00:58:04.290 --> 00:58:10.910
Jerome Van Kuiken: Oh, certainly, and especially coming off of he's talked earlier versus 29.

00:58:11.458 --> 00:58:15.990
Jerome Van Kuiken: Build yourselves up in your most holy faith. Pray in the Holy Spirit.

00:58:16.110 --> 00:58:20.810
Jerome Van Kuiken: The work of the Spirit is is present there.

00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:24.620
Jerome Van Kuiken: along with that of the Father and the Son.

00:58:24.850 --> 00:58:29.500
Jerome Van Kuiken: in preserving us, in building us up in the faith.

00:58:29.540 --> 00:58:31.320
Jerome Van Kuiken: and in

00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:39.730
Jerome Van Kuiken: carrying us into God's presence and eternity in a way that will bring honor and glory to God, instead of shame.

00:58:40.440 --> 00:58:49.020
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Oh, that in that little section is so powerful. Verse 20, you you have. If you look in this passage, you have the themes of faith, hope, and love.

00:58:49.400 --> 00:59:01.700
Andy Miller III: We have a Trinitarian. Yeah. So I'll just read it and see if you can hear us. It doesn't use the word hope, but it comes pretty close. But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith.

00:59:01.780 --> 00:59:05.419
Andy Miller III: and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves

00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:19.869
Andy Miller III: in God's love as you wait for the mercy that's the hope aside, for at our Lord Jesus Christ to bring, sorry for the, for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

00:59:21.451 --> 00:59:26.650
Andy Miller III: and that this book covers so much. I mean, we even have doctrines of

00:59:26.870 --> 00:59:29.769
Andy Miller III: heaven and hell in this, in this short little book.

00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:38.319
Andy Miller III: Where else, I mean, where else do you see? Some of that in this book is is, or am I? Am I going too far, Jerome, am I pulling too much from this little book?

00:59:38.830 --> 00:59:43.910
Jerome Van Kuiken: Well, one thing that was helpful to me that I certainly would have never seen before

00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:54.990
Jerome Van Kuiken: doing some of the research for those book is that Jude is echoing some of the temple language of the day when he talks about building yourself up

00:59:55.070 --> 01:00:04.849
Jerome Van Kuiken: in the most holy faith, being presented, spot spotless, blameless, so forth before God, like a priest, or like a sacrifice, was.

01:00:05.090 --> 01:00:09.730
Jerome Van Kuiken: There's there are echos of the temple.

01:00:10.030 --> 01:00:16.780
Jerome Van Kuiken: worship, system and and building, and all that going on underneath at the surface of this.

01:00:17.820 --> 01:00:18.290
Andy Miller III: Yeah, and.

01:00:18.290 --> 01:00:40.620
Jerome Van Kuiken: So you think about in Jude's own day, you know he would have grown up going to the Temple in Jerusalem which Joseph has described. As you said, you haven't seen beauty until you've seen the temple of God in Jerusalem. This, this beautiful eighth wonder of the world that Herod had poured all kinds of time and effort and resources into expanding and beautifying

01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:43.210
Jerome Van Kuiken: beautiful, glorious temple, and

01:00:43.520 --> 01:00:48.410
Jerome Van Kuiken: Jude and his family would have gone to that temple year by year.

01:00:48.660 --> 01:00:56.370
Jerome Van Kuiken: Then, you know, we aren't sure exactly when the letteritude was written, whether it was before or after the destruction of Jerusalem. But.

01:00:56.370 --> 01:00:56.900
Andy Miller III: Sack.

01:00:57.090 --> 01:01:04.290
Jerome Van Kuiken: Even if it was before, Jude would have known from Jesus predictions that the days of the temple were numbered.

01:01:05.274 --> 01:01:18.389
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so all of that beauty, all of that glory, all of the that sacred space, and the nostalgia and and connection, the heritage of the people of Israel gone, destroyed, not one stone left on another.

01:01:18.560 --> 01:01:19.770
Jerome Van Kuiken: And yet.

01:01:20.830 --> 01:01:22.370
Jerome Van Kuiken: in spite of that.

01:01:22.740 --> 01:01:33.489
Jerome Van Kuiken: Jude points to believers as being new temple of God, that God is working to build up and to hallow, and to indwell.

01:01:33.780 --> 01:01:34.360
Andy Miller III: Hey, Matt.

01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:35.500
Jerome Van Kuiken: His glory.

01:01:36.080 --> 01:01:49.089
Andy Miller III: Oh, I love it! I love it, this beautiful. And it's in that context. You can understand this idea that he can keep us from stumbling and and, like move us into a place where God Spirit is so at work in our life.

01:01:49.220 --> 01:02:01.639
Andy Miller III: where we move even beyond wilful sin. I I think, like that's in in part the hopeful call of Jude is that you don't have to fall. You don't have to fall

01:02:01.670 --> 01:02:17.379
Andy Miller III: now, Jerome. I was surprised in my own research on Jude that I don't know surprise, but I came upon this, and the Reform tradition will often point to Jude as in this language, of keeping, to defend the perseverance of the saints.

01:02:17.710 --> 01:02:18.270
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

01:02:18.570 --> 01:02:38.720
Andy Miller III: And that's a little bit of surprise. Surprise me. No, friends, and I use perseverance of the saints sometimes the kind of catchphrase once saved, always saved, is W. What we're describing there. Do do you think that this letter is is addressing or leading folks to the place of is there much in here to support the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints?

01:02:40.040 --> 01:02:47.380
Jerome Van Kuiken: Well, the moment of truth in that point is that it's not just all up to us on our own. God doesn't save us out of

01:02:47.748 --> 01:03:04.151
Jerome Van Kuiken: out of sin. You know, we don't just get converted. And then God pats us on the head and says, Okay, I've given you a second chance, a second shot at life. Now, you know, do your best. And I'm it's all up to you, right

01:03:04.680 --> 01:03:13.570
Jerome Van Kuiken: God is not just leaving us on our own to try and muster up enough strength on our own to

01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:18.589
Jerome Van Kuiken: hang in there in the Christian life, and do what needs to be done, and all of that. That's

01:03:18.790 --> 01:03:20.760
Jerome Van Kuiken: Pelagian. Yes.

01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:21.580
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

01:03:21.580 --> 01:03:23.030
Jerome Van Kuiken: That's a heresy.

01:03:23.948 --> 01:03:27.990
Jerome Van Kuiken: God is intimately, deeply, actively.

01:03:28.360 --> 01:03:36.820
Jerome Van Kuiken: work at every moment of our lives. Armani has had a great statement about how God is

01:03:36.890 --> 01:03:38.549
Jerome Van Kuiken: at the beginning.

01:03:38.790 --> 01:03:45.630
Jerome Van Kuiken: the end, and at every point in between, of any good that we think or will or do.

01:03:45.680 --> 01:03:49.669
Jerome Van Kuiken: brace, precedes and accompanies and perfects

01:03:49.810 --> 01:03:52.850
Jerome Van Kuiken: any good in our lives.

01:03:52.910 --> 01:03:54.130
Jerome Van Kuiken: And so

01:03:54.180 --> 01:03:57.599
Jerome Van Kuiken: it's important to have that as a background

01:03:57.660 --> 01:04:02.300
Jerome Van Kuiken: before then we make the next step, and that is to say.

01:04:02.630 --> 01:04:03.850
Jerome Van Kuiken: and

01:04:03.930 --> 01:04:07.870
Jerome Van Kuiken: along with that truth comes the

01:04:07.910 --> 01:04:14.109
Jerome Van Kuiken: flip side of the coin that Jude says, where we are called to keep ourselves in the love of God.

01:04:14.250 --> 01:04:16.420
Jerome Van Kuiken: and not be like those angels

01:04:16.550 --> 01:04:20.989
Jerome Van Kuiken: who didn't keep themselves where they were supposed to be and rejected that

01:04:21.642 --> 01:04:27.580
Jerome Van Kuiken: so we do have a part. We do have a responsibility to play it, but it is always, ever.

01:04:27.670 --> 01:04:32.599
Jerome Van Kuiken: by relying on the grace of God rather than ourselves.

01:04:32.600 --> 01:04:47.540
Andy Miller III: Oh, Jerome, what a great answer you did that just in a few minutes. You see how he did that, folks. I just wanna encourage everybody in the Wesleyan tradition. When you're trying to answer that question, don't jump so fast. Free, will Free Will. Don't jump to free Will so fast.

01:04:47.540 --> 01:05:17.319
Andy Miller III: Instead, you you you. You start that with the reality that God is entered into the equation. First, that he it's by is a graciously enabled response that we have to him. So I I I need to just go back to Rome and take that little recording. And I wanna play it for all of our students unless the Biblical Seminary, just to remind them how to answer that question. Well, that was great. Now, 1 one re. One thing I like about Jude is that, or the book of Jude particularly

01:05:17.450 --> 01:05:18.519
Andy Miller III: is that

01:05:18.590 --> 01:05:25.289
Andy Miller III: he says at the very beginning, Look, this is Andy Miller paraphrase. I didn't want to write this book.

01:05:25.470 --> 01:05:27.499
Andy Miller III: I did not want to write this letter.

01:05:27.730 --> 01:05:31.579
Andy Miller III: but I felt compelled to call you to contend for the faith.

01:05:31.650 --> 01:05:39.600
Andy Miller III: and when I, when I think about that like I reminded he. He said he wanted to write about the salvation we share.

01:05:39.700 --> 01:05:56.890
Andy Miller III: and I can kind of imagine. Wow! He hadn't mind to write another version of Romans, or something, you know, like his own. Take on this or and and yet he he had to do this, and and honestly like, I don't want to. I drone like this. The situation we're in. There's a way that

01:05:57.080 --> 01:06:02.326
Andy Miller III: I don't like being in this place where the basic reality of of

01:06:02.820 --> 01:06:21.519
Andy Miller III: God's revelation? Particularly, and the natural revelation of distinctions between men and women. Truth, any. All these type of things are in question. But we're compelled. We're compelled to respond to context we're in. And what I like to think is that Jude did this

01:06:21.890 --> 01:06:23.500
Andy Miller III: because he had a great example.

01:06:23.910 --> 01:06:25.170
Andy Miller III: His big brother

01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:26.370
Andy Miller III: Jesus.

01:06:26.900 --> 01:06:40.680
Andy Miller III: Jesus, you know, responded to the problems of our world, and took definite action and rejected a passive approach. And we see that same thing in Jude that even when he didn't want to write this letter.

01:06:41.060 --> 01:06:46.080
Andy Miller III: he rejected the passive approach, and contended for the faith himself.

01:06:46.870 --> 01:06:54.219
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Yeah. And he's able to hold together a passionate insistence on truth and reality

01:06:54.820 --> 01:06:55.870
Jerome Van Kuiken: with

01:06:56.240 --> 01:06:58.059
Jerome Van Kuiken: mercy and compassion.

01:06:58.270 --> 01:06:59.620
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yes.

01:07:00.790 --> 01:07:23.339
Andy Miller III: yeah, and we have that be mer we already mentioned it be merciful to those who doubt, save others by snatching them from the fire, you know. That's where Fanny Crosby gets the language, you know from, and rescue the perishing. So much comes from this passage. Now, also, I know you're somebody who works on the academically, on the doctrine of God. I can't help but think of this very end like we have this beautiful picture.

01:07:23.786 --> 01:07:32.110
Andy Miller III: In verse 25, to the only God our Savior. Be glory, majesty, power, and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord

01:07:32.230 --> 01:07:45.160
Andy Miller III: before all ages, now and forevermore. Amen. What can you, as a systematician, tell us so we can discern or like, pull out of even just that beautiful benediction.

01:07:45.680 --> 01:07:57.900
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Well, you certainly, you know you can hear echoes of Psalm 90 was before the mountains came into being, before the earth of the world existed from everlasting.

01:07:58.020 --> 01:08:02.549
Jerome Van Kuiken: You are God. But even behind that I think a good

01:08:03.533 --> 01:08:05.220
Jerome Van Kuiken: jewish audience

01:08:05.480 --> 01:08:09.920
Jerome Van Kuiken: would hear echoes of Exodus 3. And the name of God.

01:08:10.380 --> 01:08:11.689
Jerome Van Kuiken: The I am

01:08:11.710 --> 01:08:19.579
Jerome Van Kuiken: that then gets broken out into God. God eternally exist throughout all time, and if you think forward ahead.

01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:30.100
Jerome Van Kuiken: right after Jude gives this bin addiction you begin with to you begin to read through the Book of Revelation, and you have the one who was and is, and.

01:08:30.109 --> 01:08:32.389
Andy Miller III: Too interesting. Yeah.

01:08:32.569 --> 01:08:35.369
Jerome Van Kuiken: Breaking out the meaning of the name of God

01:08:35.919 --> 01:08:40.599
Jerome Van Kuiken: as the one who eternally exists and is eternally person.

01:08:40.699 --> 01:08:42.819
Jerome Van Kuiken: and is eternally active.

01:08:43.779 --> 01:08:50.859
Andy Miller III: Drill. I never even thought of that. Do you think that that's part of the canonical placement of Jude is the ending leads to revelation.

01:08:52.550 --> 01:08:56.690
Jerome Van Kuiken: That's a good question. It certainly helps.

01:08:57.060 --> 01:08:57.840
Andy Miller III: Yeah.

01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:12.470
Jerome Van Kuiken: In some significant ways does set you up for the Book of Revelation. Hopefully you, you start out revelation. You have warnings against false teachers, and then they get, you know, depicted in even more colorful ways. You have

01:09:12.609 --> 01:09:18.379
Jerome Van Kuiken: the the Temple, the the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.

01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:22.329
Jerome Van Kuiken: You do have the fire and judgment, and darkness, and things like that.

01:09:22.460 --> 01:09:23.979
Jerome Van Kuiken: and you have

01:09:24.080 --> 01:09:26.810
Jerome Van Kuiken: a very clear revelation of the Trinity

01:09:27.149 --> 01:09:28.780
Jerome Van Kuiken: in revelation, as well.

01:09:29.270 --> 01:09:56.930
Andy Miller III: Yes, that is such an interesting idea. I'll have to explore that some other time. But you know the canacle placement on the books, of course, that sometimes is interesting. Think about like one of the the most obvious ones is that Luke and acts are separated by John, and there's likely, you know, some connection with the ending of John thinking about the the John's Pentecostal goes to Jesus breathing on the disciples. Some people have pulled out some themes, and a New Testament scholar to

01:09:56.940 --> 01:10:24.270
Andy Miller III: to highlight that. But there! But there's some design in the canonical placement. So I think there's something to that, Jerome, this has been so much fun for me to to talk to you about this. I enjoyed your book. I wanna encourage people to get it. Of course you can look at my book, too. But but this is a fun book to read. Jerome has a lot of a great illustrations. Modern illustrations. This would be a great book to study. It's very short, compact.

01:10:24.270 --> 01:10:35.562
Andy Miller III: published by seed bed. So I encourage you all to go out and get Drone's book, and then, if you want a little bit more after that, or a little less, how about that? Go to my book.

01:10:35.990 --> 01:10:38.300
Andy Miller III: Jerome? Anything else you like to say about Jude.

01:10:39.774 --> 01:10:51.470
Jerome Van Kuiken: Well, you just you know you mentioned the the placement. You think about how the general pistols are structured and you have them. Book ended by Jesus, Brothers, right? James gets the first word.

01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:52.580
Jerome Van Kuiken: and then.

01:10:52.580 --> 01:10:53.190
Andy Miller III: Zane.

01:10:53.400 --> 01:11:07.599
Jerome Van Kuiken: Dude gets the last one, because Hebrews, traditionally, even though you know we don't think Paul wrote it, but it was attached to the end of Paul's writings. It's it tends to be connected with Paul's writing. So then, you have these general pistols

01:11:07.670 --> 01:11:11.179
Jerome Van Kuiken: that on either end are book ended by Jesus brothers.

01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:13.910
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love in in.

01:11:13.910 --> 01:11:14.450
Jerome Van Kuiken: Thought.

01:11:14.780 --> 01:11:39.702
Andy Miller III: I've told people also to think about the fact to why Jude didn't claim his, his brother brotherly status to Jesus, but he calls himself a servant, the servant of Jesus Christ, and a brother of James. It's like, you know. I I had I grew up my dad. My parents ran a camp, establish army camp for 6 years, actually 3 different camps, and there was a time where I

01:11:40.050 --> 01:11:44.400
Andy Miller III: I got a t-shirt that, said Staff, even though I was 7 years old.

01:11:44.710 --> 01:11:44.934
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right.

01:11:45.415 --> 01:11:58.420
Andy Miller III: One time. Yeah. All the staff at the candy store you know, the canteen could go to the front of the line and get their stuff. And one time in front of all the other kids, I went to the front of the line and said, Excuse me, I'm staff.

01:11:58.620 --> 01:12:00.070
Andy Miller III: Well, I

01:12:00.490 --> 01:12:09.590
Andy Miller III: that I think that that immediately my mother heard me on the other side of the camp, and I think I was that I could feel the spanking coming all the way.

01:12:10.345 --> 01:12:14.580
Andy Miller III: That was not gonna be a privileged status but like

01:12:15.585 --> 01:12:19.159
Andy Miller III: Jude, it's like he doesn't claim

01:12:19.210 --> 01:12:31.080
Andy Miller III: the status that he has, because that could lead to him having a different type of authority. Instead, you see this breaking down early on, and one of the beautiful things in the

01:12:31.670 --> 01:12:33.290
Andy Miller III: early church. Tradition

01:12:33.480 --> 01:12:36.399
Andy Miller III: has that Jude's grandchildren

01:12:36.440 --> 01:12:43.970
Andy Miller III: were taken before a king or an emperor, and I'm sorry I can't recall. I have it in my book. I have it footnoted, but

01:12:44.260 --> 01:12:44.780
Jerome Van Kuiken: Dominican.

01:12:44.780 --> 01:12:48.110
Andy Miller III: What happens. What do you do? You know you want to tell the story? Maybe you have it better.

01:12:48.110 --> 01:12:51.010
Jerome Van Kuiken: It's Domitian. Okay, go ahead. Yeah.

01:12:51.010 --> 01:13:09.550
Andy Miller III: So they they go in front of him, and they they're worried. They've heard that Jesus is Jesus's family, is, it might might claim and then take over. Take power over, and he they go before Domitian, and then he sees their hands and says, No, no, it must not be the case. They're just, they're they're they're common people.

01:13:09.630 --> 01:13:18.549
Andy Miller III: right? And it couldn't be. Couldn't be the case. Another thing to keep in mind I always love is that Jude and I. I do a first person monologue of Jude

01:13:19.084 --> 01:13:34.490
Andy Miller III: and what I. What I did is, I assume Jude is married because of the other passage that that mentions paul says, Don't I have the right to be married like Safus and the brothers of the Lord? So it seems pretty obvious that Jude was

01:13:34.710 --> 01:13:45.609
Andy Miller III: probably married, and his kids and grandkids then follow along as followers of Jesus. So I I was. I always love those little tidbits as well.

01:13:45.900 --> 01:13:46.540
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yeah.

01:13:46.840 --> 01:13:48.450
Jerome Van Kuiken: yeah, definitely.

01:13:49.100 --> 01:14:07.189
Andy Miller III: Well, Jerome, I always ask, and I know you have some interesting things about if there's more to the story of somebody. So it's my last question for you. We've learned you love Jude. We we kind of pick up on the fact that you know some about sci-fi literature and that type of thing. But is there more to the story of Jerome than we normally hear.

01:14:08.010 --> 01:14:17.499
Jerome Van Kuiken: Oh, well, I suppose one thing that would tie in with the book is that there is a Jude's health and Java house here in Bartlesville.

01:14:17.550 --> 01:14:24.319
Jerome Van Kuiken: and so I like to go there and get a chai, or something like that great.

01:14:25.420 --> 01:14:25.850
Andy Miller III: That works.

01:14:25.850 --> 01:14:29.770
Jerome Van Kuiken: So they actually sponsored. I did a presentation on

01:14:30.010 --> 01:14:44.179
Jerome Van Kuiken: the Judas. We never knew material here at Oklahoma, Wesleyan University, and I got Jude's Coffee House to sponsor it because they were named. I dedicated the book to them as well as to Gary Cocker.

01:14:44.830 --> 01:14:52.390
Andy Miller III: Oh, that's great! What else do you work on these days? I know you have some academic projects and different things that are going. What else are you working on.

01:14:53.060 --> 01:15:04.569
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right? Let's see, I have an article that I need to write for participatio, which is an online it. It's an electronic Journal

01:15:04.730 --> 01:15:06.000
Jerome Van Kuiken: of the

01:15:06.210 --> 01:15:09.390
Jerome Van Kuiken: Tf. Torrance Theological Fellowship. And

01:15:09.580 --> 01:15:15.920
Jerome Van Kuiken: so I'm working on that it. It'll deal with the relationship between the Ascension and Church history.

01:15:16.200 --> 01:15:16.810
Jerome Van Kuiken: So.

01:15:16.810 --> 01:15:17.330
Andy Miller III: A.

01:15:17.330 --> 01:15:19.580
Jerome Van Kuiken: The the seed bed

01:15:20.370 --> 01:15:24.180
Jerome Van Kuiken: blog post that I just put out on on the Ascension, and Mother's Day

01:15:24.290 --> 01:15:26.610
Jerome Van Kuiken: touches on some of those themes also.

01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:28.650
Jerome Van Kuiken: but this will be more in depth.

01:15:28.990 --> 01:15:44.459
Andy Miller III: Give us give the maybe somebody is listening in podcast and never heard of tf, torrents. And so you're in a study group about this person's theology. So just give us a thumbnail sketch of who he is, and why it might be somebody for pastors and theologians to read.

01:15:45.230 --> 01:16:13.600
Jerome Van Kuiken: Right Tf. Torrance. His father was a reformed missionary to China, but his father was educated at Cliff College, which is a Methodist school there in in England, and he absorbed some of the themes, some of the heartbeat of Methodism, and, for instance, even though he was reformed, he completely rejected the idea of a limited atonement.

01:16:13.620 --> 01:16:16.449
Jerome Van Kuiken: He insisted Jesus died for everybody.

01:16:16.810 --> 01:16:18.280
Jerome Van Kuiken: and

01:16:18.290 --> 01:16:27.719
Jerome Van Kuiken: so Tf. Grew up under that influence, and then returned to Scotland and became one of the key ecumenical

01:16:27.870 --> 01:16:32.389
Jerome Van Kuiken: theologians of the twentieth century. He was involved in dialogues with

01:16:32.500 --> 01:16:33.689
Jerome Van Kuiken: of the

01:16:33.780 --> 01:16:42.079
Jerome Van Kuiken: Church of England, with Roman Catholics he worked with the World Council of Churches, but he himself was very evangelical

01:16:42.711 --> 01:16:47.940
Jerome Van Kuiken: and certainly not not liberal in his theology.

01:16:48.060 --> 01:17:07.040
Jerome Van Kuiken: but very passionate about Jesus Christ, and also was involved in the dialogue between science and religion, and made some significant contributions to that. So, as a Wesley and a theologian, I find him to be a really good reformed dialogue partner.

01:17:07.730 --> 01:17:09.100
Jerome Van Kuiken: He he

01:17:09.190 --> 01:17:11.149
Jerome Van Kuiken: loved the church fathers.

01:17:11.849 --> 01:17:20.329
Jerome Van Kuiken: And there are some real valuable things that that Isa Wesleyan find in Tf. Torrence's theology.

01:17:20.890 --> 01:17:32.600
Andy Miller III: That's great, and there's a lot. There's several torrances around our well known theologians are, are they? Generally are. They part of the same family I've I've I've one asked for a while. Okay.

01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:44.479
Jerome Van Kuiken: Yes, at Tf. Torrance, and then his brother, James Torrance, who focused a lot on worship. He has a worship community in the triune God of grace, which is helpful

01:17:44.540 --> 01:17:45.910
Jerome Van Kuiken: as well.

01:17:45.980 --> 01:17:49.739
Jerome Van Kuiken: And then their younger brother, David Torrance, and then.

01:17:50.230 --> 01:17:58.799
Jerome Van Kuiken: some of their sons went on to become theologians as well. So yeah, there's a whole dynasty. Theologians.

01:18:00.220 --> 01:18:22.009
Andy Miller III: Well, we have the the Wbs theologians, I like to say, and I'm not necessary. I'm just. I've grafted in, maybe someday, but I'm so thankful for the work you're doing. Jerome. Tom Mccall, Kenny Johnson. I'm gonna leave somebody out Jonathan Morgan. All these people who aren't necessarily serving at Wbs anymore. Of course, our own folks like

01:18:22.030 --> 01:18:24.681
Andy Miller III: Chris Larshofer and Steve Blake Moore. And

01:18:25.120 --> 01:18:42.929
Andy Miller III: yeah, of course, Caleb, freedom work and New Testament studies. It's a. It's a real blessing to have for me to since I've been in W. The Wbs world, to get to know you all, and to know the great academic and pastoral work that you're doing, and the work you're doing at Oak Wu, too. So thank you for taking time to talk to me today. It's been a real blessing, Jerome.

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Jerome Van Kuiken: Oh, sure! Thank you again for having me on.

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