Andy Miller III
Cover Image for Under Two Flags with Jason Swain

Under Two Flags with Jason Swain

February 10, 2022

The point at which divine inspiration and human agency meat is not always easy to detect, Jason Swain, shows the Salvation Army as a prime case of this tension in his new book, Under Two Flags: The Rise, Rebellion, and Rebuilding of The Salvation Army in America 1870-1913. Check out various links here:

YouTube -

Audio -

Apple -

A FREE RESOURCE FOR MINISTRY – By signing up for my email list, you can get a four-page PDF document - A Guide for Exegetical Preparation for Preaching and Teaching. Sign up here.

I am giving away five copies of Under Two Flags. Here’s how you can earn a chance to win one:

1. Share a link to this interview with Jason on your social media.

2. Join my email list here -

3. Make a comment on my YouTube interview with Jason

Major Jason Swain was commissioned as a Salvation Army officer in 1998 and served in many different types of appointments in the USA Southern Territory including a term as a staff officer at the Evangeline Booth College in Atlanta, Georgia. He joined the publication staff at USANational Headquarters in July 2018. He is currently the Corps Officer at the Northeast Kentucky core and Ashland, Kentucky.

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.

You can find out more about Bill’s business at


Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in getting going deeper in your faith, check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country.



Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm glad you come along today is an exciting episode, because I have my friend on Jay major excuse me, excuse me, major Jason swain Jason welcome to the podcast.

00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:43.980
Jason Swain: Oh so glad to be here Andy.

00:00:44.700 --> 00:00:48.600
Andy Miller III: Now you have a new book out i'm holding up in front of screen for those who are watching on YouTube.

00:00:49.080 --> 00:00:59.160
Andy Miller III: Under two flags the rise rebellion and rebuilding of the Salvation Army in America 1872 1913, and this has just been published.

00:00:59.430 --> 00:01:06.360
Andy Miller III: Through CREST books, which is the publication arm of national headquarters of the Salvation Army so i'm fascinated by this now it's a little book.

00:01:06.570 --> 00:01:15.930
Andy Miller III: Is I mean it's like it wouldn't take you too long to get through it, but i'm fascinated by the subject by the name I want to talk through it as best I can with you, but the best thing you could probably do.

00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:28.830
Andy Miller III: Is go online or order a copy yourself now, today we have a special thing happening that we have five copies that are available for free, I do this every so often, thankfully, like doing publishers and authors are able to help me like this.

00:01:29.190 --> 00:01:36.720
Andy Miller III: If you share a link to this on your social media to this conversation, or if you make a comment in YouTube.

00:01:36.990 --> 00:01:45.390
Andy Miller III: Or the final way you can, if you join my email list of Andy Miller, the third COM that's indy Miller, I I COM there's a little tab where you can go and.

00:01:45.870 --> 00:02:01.950
Andy Miller III: You can join my email list so when this podcast comes out for two weeks after it, you can enter the contest and you can win a copy of under two flags so Jason as we get started here um I wanted to just curious, what is it that led you to want to write this book.

00:02:03.660 --> 00:02:14.040
Jason Swain: A couple of things I always was fascinated by the early days of the Salvation Army, and when I was stationed at the training college in Atlanta.

00:02:14.670 --> 00:02:26.940
Jason Swain: I was assigned to teach Salvation Army history, and we always go through those those early British days of the Salvation Army, and then we hit America and we go forward and we kind of stay in America, because that's where we are.

00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:33.780
Jason Swain: yeah, and this is just a little this this maybe 10 year period 1880 to.

00:02:34.890 --> 00:02:37.830
Jason Swain: 8090 was just as fascinating all these things happen here.

00:02:39.060 --> 00:02:41.580
Jason Swain: That don't happen anywhere else in the world.

00:02:42.030 --> 00:02:52.260
Jason Swain: hmm and then you get into a little bit more research about it and you find out that you know the the official story is not the real story there's actually some some there's.

00:02:52.380 --> 00:02:53.520
Andy Miller III: More to the story.

00:02:53.820 --> 00:03:03.810
Jason Swain: there's more to the story and that's why the book starts at 1870 and not eating at which is the official official welcome, of the Salvation Army into America.

00:03:04.290 --> 00:03:15.420
Jason Swain: there's actually 10 years of things that happened beforehand and then there's things that happened afterward that kind of end and culminate in 1913.

00:03:16.230 --> 00:03:29.970
Jason Swain: It stops there, the problem is going to stop there, and but actually in truthfully the end really comes in 1976 and that's at the end of the book and you have to read it to find out why I say that.

00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:41.040
Andy Miller III: Okay Well, this is fascinating and I philosophically I think there's something I want to hit before we even get into the content, you said something interesting not happening anywhere else in the world.

00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:53.670
Andy Miller III: And I think there is something about how the Salvation Army actually uses his mission in a given context, so we take this broad approach to reality, like how the world operates a facilitate and.

00:03:54.390 --> 00:04:04.500
Andy Miller III: live out a mission, but then it contextualize itself, and there are aspects of American society that don't comport well with the structure of the army.

00:04:05.040 --> 00:04:09.900
Andy Miller III: And so, like I think there's probably some of that comes to the forefront here in your discussion now.

00:04:10.200 --> 00:04:23.100
Andy Miller III: Before we get into the content of the book a little bit more like you currently serve as the lead the savage harmonies work in northeastern Kentucky is that right in ashland is where your base but you serve a huge area tell us quickly about that.

00:04:23.760 --> 00:04:39.120
Jason Swain: it's it's 11 counties in the northeast of Kentucky based in the city of asheville and which is the largest city actually in the in the region it's very mountainous appalachian and the the core has been here for 120 years or so.

00:04:39.150 --> 00:04:39.570

00:04:40.590 --> 00:04:54.180
Jason Swain: And you actually can go visit all the sites where the our army rented or built and we actually were just down the street for almost 70 years in one building.

00:04:54.780 --> 00:05:10.770
Jason Swain: And then they moved into this current building in 1996 and they've had their ups and downs, as all cores do but yeah we serve this entire area total population, probably around the hundred thousand when you take.

00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:12.000
All 11 Chi.

00:05:13.020 --> 00:05:15.000
Jason Swain: But, but most of his rural.

00:05:15.090 --> 00:05:15.720

00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:18.150
Jason Swain: And in that kind of thing.

00:05:18.270 --> 00:05:25.920
Andy Miller III: it's a unique environment, but yet because of its geographic location come on the eastern side of the country, like the Salvation Army was there early but it's.

00:05:26.430 --> 00:05:36.300
Andy Miller III: I think if you were able to go through even just the history of ashland you'd find some unique expressions of what happened in the army and also you know 11 counties that's a huge.

00:05:36.630 --> 00:05:49.050
Andy Miller III: Geographical footprint so like there's a lot of a lot of ground to cover there now you are able to write this book in part because you had a literary appointment, which is incredibly unique so you serve, like you, helped published.

00:05:50.190 --> 00:06:00.240
Andy Miller III: National publications at war cry young salvation is or peer and then, and then the Cross books right was that that part of what enables you to be able to do this project.

00:06:00.570 --> 00:06:08.040
Jason Swain: yeah part of it was that I was there at national headquarters and have access, one floor down or or two floors down to the archives.

00:06:08.760 --> 00:06:23.400
Jason Swain: So it's easy to go downstairs and and spend a half a day or an hour or a full I did a couple of full days and look through what they had their look at old war cries look at books that I don't own that were published.

00:06:24.540 --> 00:06:26.010
Jason Swain: Many, many years ago.

00:06:26.370 --> 00:06:28.620
Jason Swain: That had really well known today.

00:06:29.730 --> 00:06:35.340
Jason Swain: One particular one that has really was it was a great resource was the 1950s.

00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:39.510
Jason Swain: history of the Salvation Army and the United States from by Harold wispy.

00:06:39.780 --> 00:06:43.560
Jason Swain: Yes, wispy soldiers without swords, which is a.

00:06:44.730 --> 00:07:01.920
Jason Swain: herald Herbert busby, which is a great resource because that's still within that you know there were people still alive, who remembered the old the old days and that kind of thing so there's a lot of information in that book and that book is featured prominently also in DR mckinney's.

00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:08.790
Jason Swain: marching and lori history, the Salvation Army book and so those two were kind of my my base books.

00:07:09.270 --> 00:07:24.990
Jason Swain: And then filled in by others, others just just for little bits and pieces and that were found in other books, so those two were great to have and actually while I was at national, I was able to pick up a wispy book that was someone was giving.

00:07:25.830 --> 00:07:26.220
Jason Swain: yeah.

00:07:26.670 --> 00:07:30.060
Andy Miller III: So I can find him sitting around savvy shiny buildings every now and then.

00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:41.820
Andy Miller III: I always enjoy going to churches or establish armies and finding there might be one bookshelf but there's always interesting things there that have been collected through the years.

00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:47.940
Jason Swain: yeah the the national archives got rid of most of their library books.

00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:48.600

00:07:49.830 --> 00:08:00.300
Jason Swain: That was one great I got a whole bunch of back here on the shelf of things I received but also allows at the training college occasionally retired officers were bring their entire collection.

00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:14.700
Jason Swain: yeah and as they downsizing you know in life, and you know i'd always get a call from the library and say we got all these books, you want to come to look yeah I picked up I picked up some great some great older no longer published books.

00:08:14.850 --> 00:08:22.800
Jason Swain: yeah in my collection, so I was able to, I had the time we were also you know pandemic wise.

00:08:22.830 --> 00:08:37.320
Jason Swain: We right, we were we were kind of shut down or at least not in the office, and so I had some time on my hands to kind of go through some things and then I started going back to headquarters and there were just a few of us there every day, so it was real quiet.

00:08:37.680 --> 00:08:43.080
Jason Swain: yeah i'm really a great atmosphere for for for writing and then my.

00:08:44.760 --> 00:08:53.760
Jason Swain: My boss TIM foley's lieutenant Colonel team foley was editor in chief and he really encouraged me, he said, you know start just start something, and if it comes something comes out of it.

00:08:54.510 --> 00:09:00.930
Jason Swain: And I got about the first chapter done and I sent it around to several people said, what do you think one chapter, what do you think.

00:09:02.250 --> 00:09:05.160
Jason Swain: And I got such great encouragement to.

00:09:05.190 --> 00:09:06.390
Jason Swain: Go ahead and just.

00:09:06.990 --> 00:09:14.070
Jason Swain: write the rest right dress and it changed my original my original thought was just to write about the Thomas Moore affair.

00:09:14.160 --> 00:09:14.730
Andy Miller III: Right right.

00:09:14.760 --> 00:09:23.910
Jason Swain: That led to so many other things, and that just that weird 20 or 30 year period of the early days of the army in America.

00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:34.950
Andy Miller III: yeah let me jump jump in but I was highlight you some time the archives and you and I saw each other there well I would spend some time in the archives and it just said, our thanks to Susan mitchum.

00:09:35.790 --> 00:09:43.920
Andy Miller III: you'll notice many books academic books popular book popular books oftentimes and the acknowledgement you'll see her name and you'll see.

00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:51.810
Andy Miller III: archivists all around the world who have done a great job so like she she did that and really opening the door for you and and me on many fronts so.

00:09:52.110 --> 00:09:58.290
Andy Miller III: I want, I want to what I want to highlight like my kind of a praise I think you've done a great job in this book Jason and.

00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:05.640
Andy Miller III: it's not necessarily like academic research and that's Okay, and I liken it to one of the most successful.

00:10:06.210 --> 00:10:15.540
Andy Miller III: Books that has been printed in savage from the literature in the last 20 years and that's general john larson's 1929 the constitutional crisis that shaped the Salvation Army.

00:10:16.290 --> 00:10:20.250
Andy Miller III: In that huge YouTube went to the sort the secondary sources.

00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:30.210
Andy Miller III: Like was be like mckinley and then some of your own research show i'm not saying there's not any of that there but it's not like a theological analysis, this is just trying to tell a story well.

00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:42.090
Andy Miller III: so that people can get it, and I think you've done a great job because a lot of times people don't have time to go or find wispy or it goes through mckinley and we can keep going or like nickel you go through nickel you go through.

00:10:42.750 --> 00:10:56.430
Andy Miller III: Various booths writings and you assembly all that, and you tell a really compelling story, because a lot of times emotion time I say people don't know this people don't know what happened in this time period so tell us.

00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:06.390
Andy Miller III: Jason what is it what are these controversies what is it this rebellion that happened what is that people don't know.

00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:17.700
Jason Swain: I think I think the main point and I thought about this, since writing it and and the question boils down to to who owns the Salvation Army.

00:11:18.060 --> 00:11:38.280
Jason Swain: Right really that's really what it really comes down to and you get two opposing sides, one being the booth the booth family but general booth himself when booth himself and him working under British common law that's the first part.

00:11:38.550 --> 00:11:53.400
Jason Swain: Okay, looking part is we now are across the world, which is not too much of a different thing at that time from British common law, but we have this other thing called the United States of America and their laws are not the British laws are based on it.

00:11:53.520 --> 00:11:54.420
Jason Swain: But they're not the thing.

00:11:54.900 --> 00:11:55.410
Andy Miller III: Right right.

00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:56.430
Jason Swain: And so.

00:11:57.540 --> 00:12:05.610
Jason Swain: You get into this idea of well who owns everything who owns the building who owns the songbooks who.

00:12:05.640 --> 00:12:14.130
Jason Swain: owns this who can do this, who can do that who can't do this now that sounds kind of silly today to ask that, but in the 1880s.

00:12:14.790 --> 00:12:24.780
Jason Swain: That was a very important question, who owns the stuff or has the right to own this stuff and that's really what it really boils down to.

00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:46.620
Jason Swain: The Salvation Army came to America and had some issues early on, about signing signing things that owning things and renting things all these things that were very beginning and it became very clear very early that the idea that what we needed to do was form a corporation.

00:12:47.040 --> 00:13:00.750
Jason Swain: yeah and that was that's really where the where the crux of this whole thing started, but across the ocean when booth didn't understand that and and really couldn't even conceptualize.

00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:18.690
Jason Swain: That idea, how could we incorporate you know, he was against it totally now, it does happen, eventually, it does happen in the 1880s but then it happens officially again in the 1890s and that's where we still are today and those corporations all still exists.

00:13:19.230 --> 00:13:19.860
Jason Swain: yeah but.

00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:31.500
Andy Miller III: This is really interesting that you bring that up at the beginning and that actually that's the analysis, I think, is the implications of the historical facts that you described who owns okay I interrupted you a little bit there.

00:13:32.550 --> 00:13:34.110
Jason Swain: So that's the that's the crux of it.

00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:42.450
Jason Swain: yeah The other thing is, we hadn't quite figured out the whole massive expansion of the Salvation Army that happened in those times.

00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:55.470
Jason Swain: When the Christian mission became the Salvation Army everybody worth their salt will tell you that we had explosive growth, we were growing before, but when the name changed we exploded.

00:13:56.520 --> 00:14:04.050
Jason Swain: That was the That was the the the the nexus of that and it started and we became the Salvation Army and every day.

00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:13.650
Jason Swain: Where their new orders are no rules or new regulations we were this was this was being, this is a that that old cliche building the ship at sea, we were doing that and that was.

00:14:13.650 --> 00:14:26.370
Jason Swain: The way it was, we were not ready to expand to France to Australia to America, Canada, but we did it anyway, it just happened, naturally, and it kind of got to the point where.

00:14:27.270 --> 00:14:37.440
Jason Swain: Again, the International headquarters with William booth being the general in charge of all and bramwell being the Chief of Staff railton to being the secretary.

00:14:38.310 --> 00:14:50.340
Jason Swain: They were literally making this up on the fly, and so a lot of these things that happened, especially in America just kind of threw them a little bit because they had never had this experience before.

00:14:50.850 --> 00:14:59.220
Jason Swain: Right, we also got to remember at that that's our story did not just blow up out of the ground and we're everywhere, like we are today.

00:14:59.940 --> 00:15:14.580
Jason Swain: I mean in 1879 I mean we had Philadelphia, we had one place in Philadelphia that's it but by the time or Elton shows up in 1880 there's three core and Philadelphia and that's it like there's just really small areas.

00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:29.010
Jason Swain: Three small Chapel core centers in Philadelphia that's it and even when he leaves a year later they're still only New York a couple of New Jersey and in those couple in Philadelphia.

00:15:29.520 --> 00:15:51.390
Jason Swain: So it's not a huge thing now by by the it's moved very far West very rapidly it's moved south and west it's all the way out to St Louis again and all through Ohio Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin Chicago all those places and then strangely enough spontaneously out on the west coast.

00:15:51.420 --> 00:16:00.270
Jason Swain: Right, the Salvation Army starts has no connection back to the east coast it starts on its own, it has its own problems, and eventually gets fold it in.

00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:12.840
Jason Swain: During during kind of the crisis days but that's the kind of the strange things that happen and we've got to always remember that that the army was brand new.

00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:19.530
Jason Swain: Right well when eliza surely shows up she doesn't even have a uniform because it hadn't been invented yet right.

00:16:19.800 --> 00:16:34.680
Andy Miller III: it's it's it's anachronistic for us to jump back and assume that there's this like fully developed version of a denomination or movement organization that just wasn't around and you highlight to James JEREMY.

00:16:36.270 --> 00:16:45.240
Andy Miller III: hit him come in earlier than that even even a head of alliances surely so, then you then you have allies allies of surely and her family and the surely family and the.

00:16:45.780 --> 00:16:52.140
Andy Miller III: The kind of way they're trusting Member this 1879 the name change, and not just the name change.

00:16:52.650 --> 00:16:57.390
Andy Miller III: The organizational change, like the structural change that happened to.

00:16:57.630 --> 00:17:08.490
Andy Miller III: Put William booth as the autocratic leader that that change and many people would assume and say that's a part of why why we grew so expansively but that's just one year later.

00:17:08.790 --> 00:17:18.690
Andy Miller III: In just two years later, before George Scott railton comes with the famous hallelujah last season and to New York City so okay so we're in this period, where this is like.

00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:33.690
Andy Miller III: it's not exactly clear and there's a way that it's not expansive it's not like, as we say today serving in every zip code in the United States but we're just Thomas More enter into this and what what is it that happens with Thomas Moore.

00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:46.470
Jason Swain: Thomas Moore was a businessman from Britain and he actually came to America, after the civil war American Civil War so 1865 6667 somewhere in there, he comes to America.

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:59.670
Jason Swain: travels the country we're not quite sure what business, he was in it's not really related in any anything what he was in he was some kind of businessman, and he did come to America, he went back to Britain came back from America.

00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:11.700
Jason Swain: So, all in all, he had served here for 11 years in this business aspect and then he goes back to London and he meets the Salvation Army.

00:18:12.510 --> 00:18:27.210
Jason Swain: brand new just had changed his name and he is enraptured by this whole thing he joins the Salvation Army and because he had this business background, which was very common in those days, he was made a what they call the divisional officer.

00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:31.710
Jason Swain: We can't quite equate it to divisional.

00:18:32.010 --> 00:18:33.120
Andy Miller III: commander today.

00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:43.380
Jason Swain: What we currently have but it's it's kind of all the HQ staff wrapped into one because they didn't they didn't have large headquarter staffs back then.

00:18:43.710 --> 00:18:51.510
Jason Swain: So he was the divisional officer he served in the south of London, he was in charge of all the the the core centers in the south of London and.

00:18:52.620 --> 00:18:53.670
Jason Swain: that's where he was an.

00:18:55.590 --> 00:19:06.990
Jason Swain: Relative railton comes in 1880 and by 1881 he's been recalled back the army is growing so fast booth needs his his second in command or his third in command to come and help.

00:19:07.860 --> 00:19:30.150
Jason Swain: And so, he does reluctantly and they look at the pool of officers in Britain because there were none in America right a pool of officers in in in in in Britain and who has experienced, who has some knowledge oh wait a minute more has been to America, he knows the country let's send him.

00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:36.150
Jason Swain: And so, Thomas Moore comes and that make some changes early on that.

00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:51.930
Jason Swain: benefit the army and he's still here in 1884 he's still here he's leading there he's made some changes the army has three or four years it's grown expansively when he shows up it's there's 12 core 12 centers by the time.

00:19:54.420 --> 00:20:01.320
Jason Swain: Of 1884 there's 125 I think is the number, so you know we go from 12 225 and three years, four years.

00:20:02.340 --> 00:20:14.820
Jason Swain: And he sees very clearly the problems with the army in America this this whole idea of, we need to be incorporated as as we spoke up already that the corporation needs to.

00:20:15.510 --> 00:20:31.680
Jason Swain: run the things, and then we can report back to London he sees that very clearly, and he sends delegations to London he writes telegrams writes letters here's the problem you can't you know you general booth cannot own property in the United States in every state and he.

00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.420
Jason Swain: would in some States not in every state.

00:20:34.050 --> 00:20:44.160
Jason Swain: You are a foreign national your subject of the British Empire, you cannot own property all over the country, so this is our problem, who owns the Salvation Army.

00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:44.850

00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:51.990
Jason Swain: And so the idea is that if we incorporate the corporation the Salvation Army common incorporated.

00:20:52.770 --> 00:21:14.190
Jason Swain: Would own everything and we'd have a board of directors and and it'd be made up of officers and staff, and they would just govern the legal side of it, not this not the ecclesiastical side, not the you know the growth church growth side it's just the legal side and business.

00:21:15.300 --> 00:21:27.300
Jason Swain: And that was really the crux of it and so he gets so frustrated that by 1884 he just he copyrights everything that he could he.

00:21:27.810 --> 00:21:38.520
Jason Swain: incorporates everything that he could and basically breaks away in this, this is the rebellion part breaks away from London and takes most of the core with him.

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:39.450
Andy Miller III: mm hmm.

00:21:39.780 --> 00:21:48.150
Jason Swain: In the in the 8080 percentile right at 90% range, they all go they all signed on to this by by this time, all those officers have been trained in America.

00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:58.770
Jason Swain: They kind of understood more William booth was just this ethereal name that appeared in the war cry every once in a while he had never been to America, yet.

00:22:00.390 --> 00:22:09.570
Jason Swain: He was just this the general you know, he was he was across the sea and he he wrote on thing that was appeared in the war cry and that was it like no one knew who he was.

00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:14.490
Jason Swain: Right and and and and there was no loyalty to him per se.

00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:26.280
Andy Miller III: So more sets up his own Salvation Army of America and when he does this, he makes himself the general of the Salvation Army and of America and.

00:22:26.310 --> 00:22:27.810
What else they do that's different.

00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:32.670
Andy Miller III: Oh.

00:22:34.620 --> 00:22:38.310
Jason Swain: it's the headquarters in brooklyn not in New York, a.

00:22:39.180 --> 00:22:40.380
Andy Miller III: shake in just a second.

00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:45.390
Andy Miller III: Alright Jeff in 321.

00:22:46.410 --> 00:22:58.200
Andy Miller III: So Thomas More creates the Salvation Army of America makes himself the general Jason, can you tell me what is it that that he does differently, besides like not submitting to leadership of the general I mean that's, the main thing.

00:22:58.560 --> 00:23:02.490
Andy Miller III: What is it that he does differently when he creates a Salvation Army of America.

00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:11.940
Jason Swain: One of the first things he did was he copyrighted all the symbologist so he copyrighted the warcraft he copyrighted the flag he copyrighted the crest he cocker.

00:23:12.330 --> 00:23:18.270
Jason Swain: which was strange it just he just does it and and so that's, the first thing he does.

00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:27.030
Jason Swain: He moves headquarters now he had done this already, but he he kind of doubled down he moves headquarters from Philadelphia to brooklyn.

00:23:27.870 --> 00:23:43.410
Jason Swain: Not New York City and back then brooklyn was a separate city from New York City, so he moves to brooklyn and then he starts just kind of making very odd decisions not.

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.230
Jason Swain: You know just because he was had the title general doesn't mean he was a leader.

00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:58.020
Jason Swain: He had you know and so he starts and he The other thing he does is because they're incorporated he starts he sets up a basically a board of directors.

00:23:58.800 --> 00:24:17.670
Jason Swain: And when they write the into the corporate documentation he basically says that everything is subject to the board of directors not himself, so he is not autocratic like William booth he is more leadership by committee kind of thing.

00:24:18.060 --> 00:24:22.020
Jason Swain: Right end up in about two years to come around and bite him.

00:24:23.310 --> 00:24:39.330
Jason Swain: Because when the bad decisions are made the board basically terminates him as a general and then we go through the next couple of years of back and forth, and what are we going to do, and it eventually collapses on itself.

00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:51.690
Jason Swain: almost immediately people realize this was a bad decision on on literally like the day it happened, they were people like maybe this should not have happened.

00:24:51.930 --> 00:24:52.680
Andy Miller III: This way.

00:24:52.770 --> 00:25:05.310
Jason Swain: It was all is all passion and emotion and and there were several leaders in the in the Salvation Army who realized this and try their best to reconcile it took another five years.

00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:10.830
Andy Miller III: Right, so one of the other things I always find interesting is that.

00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:22.320
Andy Miller III: In the more army, so to speak, he had a they practice the sacraments and they had a statement about the the Church, the understanding of the Church, that obviously felt like that is lacking.

00:25:22.620 --> 00:25:38.010
Andy Miller III: But let's just jump ahead because we, I want to get love to get too badly had to if we have time so so all this happens, a immediately realized there's a problem there is this heroic work, I believe that happens, and I like how you highlight to have hopes.

00:25:39.030 --> 00:25:48.900
Andy Miller III: And he kind of helps lead a group back so tell us about well how this comes back together like how things are rebuilt, and like what's going on in that next phase.

00:25:49.290 --> 00:25:59.250
Jason Swain: So the Salvation Army international now you have to you have to start adding these tags to it, because you get a by this time you three or four different salvation army's I using.

00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:16.710
Jason Swain: So we have in America, we have the Salvation Army will say international that's the Salvation Army that's still around with this which I belong to today, then you have the Salvation Army of America that's the more group will just call them, the more army for now.

00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:20.100
Jason Swain: Okay, later on, you're going to have the American Salvation Army.

00:26:20.100 --> 00:26:30.990
Jason Swain: My little group, and then you got several other copycats that show up from time to time, so the south shore international sends the next national commander frank Smith.

00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:42.420
Jason Swain: Now frank Smith has was the husband told you go to America and solve the problem, fine frank Smith comes to America and.

00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:49.650
Jason Swain: puts headquarters in New York and just starts publishing a war cry and they just they just.

00:26:50.160 --> 00:27:03.870
Jason Swain: He starts off, but he believes, because this is what he has been told, but he also what he believes that all who left our traders hmm and that's a strong word but that's what he uses and so Richard holtz.

00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:15.480
Jason Swain: met the Salvation Army in buffalo New York was quickly promoted, he was he was an excellent excellent officer, he was in charge of upstate New York based up up up in Albany.

00:27:16.290 --> 00:27:28.920
Jason Swain: And he was one of the ones who almost immediately realized this was problematic so when frank Smith shows up holtz leads the delegation into New York they show up at headquarters and said we're here to talk to.

00:27:30.690 --> 00:27:37.860
Jason Swain: frank Smith, the national commander, and they are rebuffed they are literally thrown out of the building and called traders.

00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:48.060
Jason Swain: And rebellious scum pretty much and do not come back holtz is saddened by this, but he says okay i'll bide my time and off he goes.

00:27:49.260 --> 00:28:03.300
Jason Swain: Now frank Smith did some amazing things and why the book is called what it is, is because it's frank Smith, who says we are the true Salvation Army and we are the true Salvation Army in America just a slight.

00:28:03.330 --> 00:28:04.590
Andy Miller III: change that either right right.

00:28:04.830 --> 00:28:16.170
Jason Swain: And therefore we will now start carrying on our marches parades and in our halls the American flag, along with the Salvation Army flag, so we will now serve under two flags.

00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:16.830
Andy Miller III: There you go.

00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:28.200
Jason Swain: And that's the title of the book so it's frank Smith, who does that and that that's kind of odd because we think of the more army of the Salvation Army of America they would be the more patriotic but that's not the case.

00:28:30.630 --> 00:28:35.250
Jason Swain: it's it's the Salvation Army international who starts this trend, and it remains so today.

00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:44.880
Jason Swain: In every Salvation Army Hall, and every savage arm Chapel on our marches if we do those anymore, and anything that we do it's always there always together.

00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:56.430
Jason Swain: cover the book is evangelists booth when she shows up as national commander in 19 for you see she's carrying both flags and you see the little on the army flag, you see the little.

00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:06.450
Jason Swain: American flag tact in the corner that was another another thing that was that was kind of unique to America on those days so uh.

00:29:08.100 --> 00:29:15.690
Jason Swain: frank Smith comes along calls them out holtz bides this time now during this whole time, this is the middle middle.

00:29:17.790 --> 00:29:31.860
Jason Swain: Individual cores are returning to the Salvation Army they're leaving the more army, one by one, slowly, you know officers are either resigning and the people but there's also and I mentioned this in the book people have no clue what's going on the people.

00:29:32.340 --> 00:29:38.190
Jason Swain: The soldiers even some officers out West have no clue what's going on they're reading about these things.

00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:44.130
Jason Swain: And and and they just have no clue and odd things happen, you get you get controversial.

00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:53.910
Jason Swain: telegrams go back and forth and a telegram goes out one day that says, Thomas more's no longer the general gist of the Salvation Army of America.

00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:03.960
Jason Swain: And then, more sensitive Carmen says disregard that last one yep i'm still in charge this because it goes there's like four and a day I could imagine a poor officer trying to do their.

00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:21.270
Jason Swain: Their work in 1885 86 and they're getting these telegrams every every couple hours you know, a today, but I getting an email every five seconds I mean you know back and forth i'm sure they were just flabbergasted so during that.

00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:32.370
Jason Swain: frank Smith finally is recall back to London, he has some work to do that he's going to do, and finally the right man is sent, and that is the generals.

00:30:32.820 --> 00:30:43.950
Jason Swain: Second son barrington booth and his wife MOD charlesworth who come there co national commanders and they are, they will stay here for 10 years.

00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:52.170
Jason Swain: They will live in America, the rest of their lives, but they will stay as national Commander for 10 years, they are the ones who start the ball rolling.

00:30:53.220 --> 00:31:01.080
Jason Swain: He meets with with hopes and they said we're not sure how this is going to pan out but we'll let's work towards it.

00:31:01.770 --> 00:31:15.510
Jason Swain: And a couple of years later, they create this big reconciliation day and strangely enough, it happens in saratoga New York, not in New York City, but, but a lot of the core at that time were up in the north.

00:31:16.590 --> 00:31:25.350
Jason Swain: Country and New England New York Pennsylvania those kind of places and so that was considered the hotbed of this rebellion so we're going to do it up there.

00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:34.740
Jason Swain: They have a big parade they all march into the hall, you can still go to that City Hall you actually going up up the stairs into the entrepreneurs, on the second floor.

00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:51.180
Jason Swain: And the army marches about the salish army marches in, and then the the the the others come in March march into applause and singing and there's just a tears and there's great reconciliation that happens on that night.

00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:53.730
Jason Swain: But not everybody's there.

00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:59.850
Jason Swain: there's a small very small group of officers who are just still not.

00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:14.190
Jason Swain: reconciled to this whole thing and they start the American Salvation Army based in saratoga, of all places where this all just happened it's based in saratoga by a guy by the name of William tan.

00:32:14.850 --> 00:32:34.260
Jason Swain: And when your tan and about 12 others start this America American Salvation Army and then they last about 10 years and then they fold they he sends a letter out that says, you know, we have no basis, we have no growth, we have no money.

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.600
Jason Swain: we're folding.

00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:44.790
Jason Swain: And when Bhutan does not goes away does not enter the story until back about.

00:32:47.370 --> 00:32:51.870
Jason Swain: He sends a very large packet of documents to evangelism booth.

00:32:52.920 --> 00:33:10.260
Jason Swain: And he says, I have been remiss I should have done this, a long time ago here is the Charter and all the documents for the American Salvation Army, as the only Member still remaining of the American Salvation Army, I have, I have given you the authority.

00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:14.820
Jason Swain: To do that with with what you will, so technically.

00:33:16.080 --> 00:33:24.990
Jason Swain: Until that is absorbed into the Salvation Army international General of the evangelists booth was was the general of the American Salvation Army for a couple years.

00:33:27.090 --> 00:33:33.420
Jason Swain: You know it's because she had it all now that whole pile of documents are gone like.

00:33:33.780 --> 00:33:40.920
Jason Swain: No one knows what happened to him there's there's no record of the other than we have this letter, we have the cover letter that's familiar to him.

00:33:41.910 --> 00:33:52.710
Andy Miller III: And he goes interesting like you have so this group Okay, it could you talk about the group that's still in like operation a day in the DC area.

00:33:52.830 --> 00:33:53.910
Andy Miller III: Oh yeah rescue workers.

00:33:54.120 --> 00:34:00.060
Jason Swain: yeah so well that that's another part of the story, so in the 1890s.

00:34:02.190 --> 00:34:09.360
Jason Swain: Well, I have to go back there's there's a lot more to this than that so more lead is thrown out of the Salvation Army of America.

00:34:09.750 --> 00:34:14.550
Jason Swain: Right and they took the Board of Directors can't find someone to replace it.

00:34:15.120 --> 00:34:30.840
Jason Swain: So they they end they asked several people and they all say no, and they finally get to hold back why holtz is important and hold says, I will not be the general, but I will I will I will take on the mantle of Commander and so you see documents are in this it says, Colonel Richard holds.

00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:34.620
Jason Swain: commander it doesn't like the general just as commander.

00:34:37.890 --> 00:34:50.460
Jason Swain: When when more goes off to New England and he starts a group called the crusaders for Christ, and within a year or two he's actually thrown out of that group as well.

00:34:51.030 --> 00:34:58.950
Jason Swain: And then he starts becoming he is a traveling evangelist from that point on till he ends up in Kansas and there, there is, where he passes on.

00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:05.520
Jason Swain: The crusaders for Christ decide to change your name back to the Salvation Army of America.

00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:08.100
Jason Swain: So here we go again.

00:35:08.550 --> 00:35:10.200
Jason Swain: We have the Salvation Army international.

00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:16.770
Jason Swain: We have the American Salvation Army and we have the Salvation Army of America, so we have all these at this one time.

00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:35.700
Jason Swain: And they become they stay the Salvation Army of America until this white ends in 1913 they stay that until the Salvation Army finally gets tired of it and said Susan it takes a couple years but they've the Salvation Army wins, and they are.

00:35:37.110 --> 00:35:43.290
Jason Swain: Under orders change the name change or symbols change or everything have changed, they become the American rescue workers.

00:35:44.820 --> 00:36:00.810
Jason Swain: And the America squares for about 50 years grew and kind of kind of did their thing and they did their thing we did ours, they were similar, but not the same, and just over the years, they have they have slowly.

00:36:02.010 --> 00:36:09.270
Jason Swain: gone away, they used to have 16 places in operation, and then there were 10 and then there were four now there's three.

00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:13.740
Jason Swain: Okay they've dropped all their military jargon and terminology.

00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:21.210
Jason Swain: they've they've they've pretty much they will not be much longer in operation.

00:36:21.330 --> 00:36:24.060
Andy Miller III: So, even just a few years ago they were still wearing uniforms.

00:36:24.690 --> 00:36:30.420
Andy Miller III: kind of thought of themselves as a church, it was like finding this like cousin that you never knew about when you like.

00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:31.140
Andy Miller III: Look him up.

00:36:31.830 --> 00:36:44.580
Jason Swain: yeah their doctrines are almost word for word, they they they had colonels and captains and they rent that they didn't have a seminary they you were taught kind of in the field, you know you.

00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:44.790
Andy Miller III: You.

00:36:45.390 --> 00:36:53.910
Jason Swain: You kind of thing and they had at one time they had places all over and their general they did have the general for life kind of thing.

00:36:55.080 --> 00:37:01.740
Jason Swain: And he finally retired guy by the name of Claude Aston and Claude finally retired and turned it over to his son Sean.

00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:12.990
Jason Swain: Who right after that they dropped all their uniforms and everything and, if you look it up today you'll see a picture of Sean he's just wearing a polo shirt.

00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:18.510
Jason Swain: way interesting their logo and he's he's he's not the general he's he's just executive director.

00:37:19.290 --> 00:37:21.510
Andy Miller III: But there now, this is so interesting like what's happened.

00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:29.760
Andy Miller III: We probably don't have too long to talk about badminton I want to make another observation of something that our way this even impacted my life.

00:37:31.110 --> 00:37:45.990
Andy Miller III: The stuff with more that you have not until 1976 there's some changes that come about now if you, you still might even see remnants of it around but, for instance, I was looking for some documents, just yesterday, and I have found my dedication.

00:37:47.310 --> 00:37:58.500
Andy Miller III: document that dedication slip whatever you call it like certificate that's it and as i'm looking at it it's an I was born 1985 dedicated 1980, but there must have still been enough around that.

00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:08.040
Andy Miller III: The old days in the United States, the Salvation Army had a different CREST there would be an eagle on top of the crest representing America.

00:38:09.120 --> 00:38:10.500
Andy Miller III: Jason you tell us why that is.

00:38:11.010 --> 00:38:12.480
Jason Swain: yeah that goes from the copyright of.

00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:25.860
Jason Swain: More copyrighted the crest and the shield everything and it even our flag, if you notice United States flags are different than British or other flags it's just a little the star is different.

00:38:26.190 --> 00:38:26.550
Andy Miller III: yeah.

00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:33.060
Jason Swain: It all comes back to that copyright, now we could go back to the old one, but we're used to that one that and so.

00:38:34.050 --> 00:38:46.140
Jason Swain: The CREST had to change as well, and so the idea was well we we don't have to change everything just one thing to make it our own, so the Salvation Army in America changed it to an eagle on top.

00:38:47.700 --> 00:38:53.820
Jason Swain: From Isaiah 41 they will mount up with wings of eagles is what it meant, but the Americans took it as very patriotic.

00:38:53.850 --> 00:39:02.280
Jason Swain: yeah we have this So you see old pictures, you always can point out the American salvation as they've got that eagle on the top of their craft.

00:39:02.970 --> 00:39:13.950
Jason Swain: And that is in place, even when I was a kid they were they were retired officer she still had that eagle on the top of stained glass windows and a lot of buildings of certificates were still around.

00:39:15.120 --> 00:39:19.890
Jason Swain: And even when I worked for the Salvation Army before I went to training in the 90s, we were still.

00:39:21.600 --> 00:39:33.510
Jason Swain: Dealing with the old buildings that had the eagle on the outside, in some way and and there was actually a program to get that changed in the 90s so we're talking 20 years after the fact.

00:39:34.560 --> 00:39:35.130
Jason Swain: But.

00:39:35.790 --> 00:39:45.600
Jason Swain: there's it's still around I have pins I have, I have all kinds of things that have that ego on it 1976 the Commissioners in the United States found out that the.

00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:57.600
Jason Swain: Copyright had elapsed and was not renewable by anybody, so they quickly grabbed it up copyrighted it and we went we went back to the the the Crown.

00:39:58.680 --> 00:40:00.840
Jason Swain: crown crown CREST in this way it.

00:40:00.870 --> 00:40:02.880
Andy Miller III: Probably once again under Britain.

00:40:03.090 --> 00:40:03.990
Andy Miller III: We find ourselves.

00:40:04.620 --> 00:40:05.070
Jason Swain: wow.

00:40:05.160 --> 00:40:10.620
Andy Miller III: I know it's more spiritual than that but it's like it's interesting me like even just a symbol, as of it when you go to other.

00:40:10.830 --> 00:40:15.090
Andy Miller III: Countries that were British colonies, you see some very similar.

00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:19.830
Andy Miller III: logos and similar imagery that's used some.

00:40:20.220 --> 00:40:30.570
Jason Swain: yeah so so we were always a little unique we still are, in some ways the one, the only thing that's really remained from that time period is as our flags yeah.

00:40:31.230 --> 00:40:46.440
Jason Swain: You got any other country in the world, the national flag might be in the hall but 90% of time it won't be not i've watched savage story marches from all over the world it's always just there, the army flag.

00:40:46.620 --> 00:40:50.040
Jason Swain: Right, but if you see one in America it's both.

00:40:50.160 --> 00:40:54.390
Andy Miller III: We go back to the podcasts that i've done with my brother, Dr Nathan Miller.

00:40:54.540 --> 00:41:03.180
Andy Miller III: where he he makes this a subject of his his dissertation where he talks about music and the way music incorporates and facilitates nationalism and he has a lot to say.

00:41:03.570 --> 00:41:12.810
Andy Miller III: about the flat use of the flag, so you can and even sociologically what happens with that, but go back to my podcast you can find it at my website for that again i'm with my friend.

00:41:13.830 --> 00:41:22.620
Andy Miller III: Major almost like Captain Jason swain and who serves at ashland Kentucky all right, we don't have too much longer, but I would really love for you can you give us like a short version.

00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:34.080
Andy Miller III: Of, then what happens at valley 10 so we have battling to comes in, he helps restore the groups in the 1880s, then we have this kind of like unified front this charismatic leader, he and his wife MOD but obviously they come into.

00:41:34.710 --> 00:41:44.490
Andy Miller III: They come into similar trouble, this is a structural issue and that's what more confronted as well, those more challenge, but what was that challenge, and then, how did that get resolved.

00:41:44.700 --> 00:41:54.900
Jason Swain: quickly balancing comes in, and he has given broad powers to do whatever it needs to be done, they reconcile in 1889 and all as well, they build a brand new beautiful.

00:41:55.290 --> 00:42:01.890
Jason Swain: headquarters, building on 14th street in New York building and even had a cannon on the top they fired at noon, I would love to have been there when that first.

00:42:01.890 --> 00:42:02.730
Andy Miller III: happened haha.

00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:03.780

00:42:05.070 --> 00:42:23.640
Jason Swain: They build rebuild and the army is growing and we booth comes finally first first visit it doesn't go that well we moved by this time was was was was kind of cranky and crabby kind of guy he was older and anyway doesn't go well and there's ideas that America has gotten to.

00:42:24.750 --> 00:42:35.040
Jason Swain: Use booth phrase Yankee doodle ISM has infected as infected the army in America, but he loves that he speaks to capacity crowds everywhere, he goes and.

00:42:36.600 --> 00:42:46.020
Jason Swain: it boils down to a family squabble really there are some structural issues that they still still dealt with, but there was really down to we move.

00:42:46.470 --> 00:42:51.780
Jason Swain: bramwell booth his son and burlington all had family squabbles as the awful family does.

00:42:52.590 --> 00:43:11.580
Jason Swain: And it gets to a head in 1896 they've been there they've been there 10 years by that point they want to stay they see the possibilities and that kind of thing they become American citizens they they live in New Jersey, they you know and so.

00:43:12.780 --> 00:43:24.720
Jason Swain: They almost lead a second rebellion away from the Salvation Army international, but there are so many people who remember the first one there's only 10 years previous that the officers want nothing to do with it.

00:43:25.230 --> 00:43:25.620

00:43:26.640 --> 00:43:27.870
Jason Swain: And they finally.

00:43:29.670 --> 00:43:30.210
Jason Swain: Leave.

00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:40.860
Jason Swain: We move comes from one more visit and there's a this happens, later on, and there's a great it's a great quote it says they meet they meet at a hotel.

00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:56.880
Jason Swain: No one knows what the what the meeting was about but it's you know we met we prayed and we parted forever that's the front, you know the phrase and that's the way it was balancing goes on the form another group called the volunteers were America still around.

00:43:58.290 --> 00:44:08.010
Jason Swain: And he is their first gen and will be so until he passes on in the 1940s his mom will take over and then their son will take over.

00:44:08.490 --> 00:44:25.320
Jason Swain: And then they change their structure, a little bit they drop all their military stuff early on in the 50s and they they're around they still grow, they grow, they do what they do and they celebrate that early those early days and you'll see pictures of them, if you look on the bottom.

00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:33.570
Jason Swain: you'll see pictures about, and you can notice their their CREST on there, you know that and they say where they came from the Salvation Army.

00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:37.110
Jason Swain: yeah, so there are there are American cousins.

00:44:37.200 --> 00:44:39.720
Jason Swain: To take, and they do what they do and.

00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:47.760
Jason Swain: You know, but they again they dropped a lot of their ecclesiastical stuff pretty early on and they're just now nonprofit.

00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:52.230
Andy Miller III: Right and they were their original name was the American Salvation Army is that right.

00:44:52.650 --> 00:44:54.330
Jason Swain: No, they were always volunteers of America.

00:44:54.360 --> 00:45:00.450
Andy Miller III: didn't they I thought they started, maybe I have this I thought they had a different title and then they there was a lawsuit but anyhow.

00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:08.160
Andy Miller III: So, like they had these concepts and now you know Alan Saturday, has a couple of articles that are really interesting, I think you know about them that, where he.

00:45:08.370 --> 00:45:16.440
Andy Miller III: He looks at like what's happening at these groups now, and he sees extremes that you would want to avoid and I thought that was you know you know.

00:45:17.100 --> 00:45:26.400
Andy Miller III: Decades ago that he wrote this so you have he says, you don't want to we don't want to be, just like the volunteers of America that become just a charity, but we also don't want to be just the.

00:45:27.390 --> 00:45:37.440
Andy Miller III: rescue workers American rescue workers either where they just kind of fold away into obscurity, but what do you think of that like that that those comparisons like as far as identity today for the examination.

00:45:37.470 --> 00:45:51.180
Jason Swain: yeah it's fascinating that the having all the advantages in 1880 for the Salvation Army of America should have should have just cleaned up and still been here today, yet within five years they're gone.

00:45:52.620 --> 00:45:56.820
Jason Swain: All the growth that happened any American rescue workers, you know, here we are.

00:45:58.230 --> 00:46:04.680
Jason Swain: 100 years later and they're they're not even I can't even sit cut say they're a shadow of the cells are three three places left.

00:46:05.100 --> 00:46:09.600
Jason Swain: yeah they're pretty much villain volunteers America are still around but they dropped all of their.

00:46:10.890 --> 00:46:24.900
Jason Swain: Religious stuff and they're just they're just a charity that that operates, you know around the country here and there, but they're there they're not seeing much growth at least you know they're not opening new offices what they have is what they have.

00:46:25.350 --> 00:46:25.530

00:46:26.730 --> 00:46:35.220
Jason Swain: and other and others like that there's there was a progressive Salvation Army in the 1890s they there they never made very the last 10 years.

00:46:35.970 --> 00:46:51.450
Jason Swain: All these the American Salvation Army, you know you know lasted for a little while and they folded it have the back so it's interesting to me that the Salvation Army international you know coming in at that disadvantage in 1884 is what it is today in America.

00:46:52.080 --> 00:46:53.820
Jason Swain: and around the world and around the world.

00:46:55.860 --> 00:47:07.290
Jason Swain: You know call that spiritual blessing god's hand on us possible you know that's true or just that we stuck to our guns, we had we know we stay within our structure.

00:47:08.010 --> 00:47:15.450
Jason Swain: And, and we go from there, I was speaking someone recently, and we were talking about the Salvation Army and the mission.

00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:29.460
Jason Swain: And I said listen the missions never changed the methods have changed drastically, even in my time officer, the methods have changed, but the mission remains the same, and it was the it was the same in at.

00:47:30.510 --> 00:47:38.070
Jason Swain: It was the same in 1890 all the way through you know the times have changed and our methods have changed and the army has changed a great deal.

00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:45.300
Jason Swain: But we still serve people in the lowest strategies of society, all the way up.

00:47:46.950 --> 00:47:50.760
Jason Swain: To the Multi millionaire it doesn't matter to us where you come from.

00:47:50.790 --> 00:47:52.350
Jason Swain: We serve discrimination.

00:47:53.010 --> 00:47:58.320
Andy Miller III: yeah it's beautiful, there is, I mean i've been i've been one who's who's talked about.

00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:11.310
Andy Miller III: The challenges that we have with understanding our identity and wondering if there, there might be a time where I said just recently it's either accountability or division and I think that this is like well The reason I say that is not because, like.

00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:18.090
Andy Miller III: suggested that the corporation changes, but it what makes up a group an entity.

00:48:19.110 --> 00:48:30.690
Andy Miller III: Is it only based upon the things that we do, or how we're incorporated, or is it what we believe, and I think that that's where that's right I think that's what would make any change that would happen.

00:48:31.680 --> 00:48:41.310
Andy Miller III: My desire would be there wouldn't be any change I think it'd be very, very hard corporately to make that happen, but at the same time, I think that requires.

00:48:42.210 --> 00:48:52.680
Andy Miller III: leadership to to institute accountability like So if you just decided, you know what i'm going to you know start to have the Salvation Army and actually not believe in.

00:48:53.460 --> 00:49:06.630
Andy Miller III: The trinity anymore well that's moving away from the mission and that's I think that that's the heart of what i've been saying, and the contemporary application is when you move away from the mission that's where we get in trouble.

00:49:07.410 --> 00:49:16.680
Jason Swain: yeah my one my one critique would would be that we have got to stop I might get in trouble for this, we might we've got to stop trying to be like other churches.

00:49:17.310 --> 00:49:25.110
Jason Swain: that's that's where we've gotten to a lot of trouble not i'm not talking doctrinally and i'm not talking just just, we need to be who we are.

00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:34.200
Jason Swain: And I see so many people saying oh yeah, but they do, they got 1000 people and they do all this stuff and they there they do this they do that and i'm like.

00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:37.410
Jason Swain: Okay that's them, why do we want to be like them.

00:49:37.950 --> 00:49:48.270
Jason Swain: You know, other than is it just about numbers, you know, or you know, let us less, and so there are people like Oh, we got to drop all the uniforms and drop all the terminology and i'm like nope, we need to go the other way.

00:49:48.870 --> 00:49:54.270
Jason Swain: You know and go back to how we used to talk about things if there wasn't a phrase for it, we created one.

00:49:55.170 --> 00:50:01.740
Jason Swain: You know, you know and it's so funny I was talking to a friend of mine about tithes and offerings you know.

00:50:02.370 --> 00:50:07.980
Jason Swain: He says, what do you call this, and so I wish armies and tithes and offerings he said he said no, no, no, no, you guys got her phrase, I said oh.

00:50:08.460 --> 00:50:18.330
Jason Swain: I said the envelope is your cartridge and you when you throw it in the offering plate it's it's firing your cartridge he was like so that's so that's so cool I wish we would say stuff like that you know and i'm like.

00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:20.190
Jason Swain: Anyway, that's my.

00:50:20.220 --> 00:50:21.300
Jason Swain: One I think I think.

00:50:22.110 --> 00:50:22.440
Jason Swain: I just.

00:50:22.560 --> 00:50:32.880
Andy Miller III: had time to debate, necessarily, but I think like my challenges like when you get to a place where you always have to say i'm the corps officer, which is like being a pastor or like i've noticed a lot of like.

00:50:34.470 --> 00:50:41.310
Andy Miller III: social media from HQ HQ will say things like often it's putting things in parentheses.

00:50:41.550 --> 00:50:42.120
Andy Miller III: it's like.

00:50:42.240 --> 00:50:46.470
Andy Miller III: We really if we're having to put things in parentheses, maybe we've lost the.

00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:56.550
Andy Miller III: opportunity to really create a new way of thinking about things because we're let's just let's just say what if, but you and I, maybe we can have a podcast about that some other time I don't disagree with.

00:50:57.030 --> 00:51:10.230
Andy Miller III: With leaning into our heritage and leaning into what we have in certainly your book has done that, for us really in a helpful way and look I just recommend people to take some time to read it you'll see that it's really well documented.

00:51:11.190 --> 00:51:20.340
Andy Miller III: Like he did his research he had that time during Kobe to look into this and it is important to see, I think, and I know we agree on this Jason like how God has led.

00:51:20.910 --> 00:51:24.030
Andy Miller III: The institution that you and I have been a part of you know, for so long.

00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:33.210
Andy Miller III: And how it also should be encouraging the other movements to other movements that we believe the Holy spirit's active in is that if God the Holy Spirit is at work, you know there.

00:51:33.990 --> 00:51:44.280
Andy Miller III: He uses messed up people uses controversies and even admit stuff like really challenging times a God is at work, so any any last thing you want to say Jason.

00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:55.890
Jason Swain: No, I you know by the book I get nothing out of it, so you know I would I would love to get a note that said, we have to do a second printing that would be awesome to me but.

00:51:57.120 --> 00:52:09.420
Jason Swain: You know, it is it's an easy read you can go through it it's a friend of mine said it's fast moving, just like the early days in the army and that's exactly true, we were growing beyond what we even knew about at the time and.

00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:16.260
Jason Swain: read it and understood you know you know send me a note and ask me questions i'll try to try to answer them as best I can.

00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:22.770
Andy Miller III: yeah invite Jason into come into you could just do it via zoom or you could invite them to fly in and make a presentation to.

00:52:23.550 --> 00:52:26.460
Andy Miller III: An advisory board or a core youth group or.

00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:35.910
Andy Miller III: Any I think it's just a fascinating story, we might as well, tell this even it's a little it kind of show some of our words you know but it's worth sharing it and have them come in and share I think it'd be a great thing.

00:52:36.240 --> 00:52:41.700
Andy Miller III: Jason thanks so much for your time oh I forgot the morning story question what's more to the story of Jason.

00:52:42.690 --> 00:52:45.660
Jason Swain: I don't know I I serve as a Salvation Army officer.

00:52:45.660 --> 00:52:46.290
Andy Miller III: So.

00:52:46.860 --> 00:52:47.910
Jason Swain: I don't I don't know.

00:52:48.630 --> 00:52:56.670
Andy Miller III: what's something you like to do what's something that people don't generally i'm working on i'm working on a few other things, but my time is really taken up here at my core.

00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:02.100
Jason Swain: Doing corps officer duties as i'm not married, so I do everything here myself.

00:53:02.130 --> 00:53:03.570
Jason Swain: yeah and.

00:53:04.950 --> 00:53:13.470
Jason Swain: I love history, so I not only army history, I love I love American history so i'm I get involved with some some.

00:53:14.700 --> 00:53:20.550
Jason Swain: Here in this area Ohio its Ohio Kentucky West Virginia pioneer days kind of thing.

00:53:20.970 --> 00:53:21.840
Andy Miller III: There it is.

00:53:22.110 --> 00:53:23.700
Jason Swain: Which are which are fun and.

00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:25.200
Andy Miller III: You dress up.

00:53:25.470 --> 00:53:34.590
Jason Swain: I do sometimes and, if you look at my Facebook page you'll see me at mount Vernon where I served as a volunteer for a couple years so and still do.

00:53:34.620 --> 00:53:35.640
Andy Miller III: You play a character.

00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:51.510
Jason Swain: No, no, I was just I was just a general general person help help her we would say you know helper the official terms way Finder I just love that I would just stand on the corner and point people to the right direction, you know and that kind of thing.

00:53:52.710 --> 00:54:06.840
Jason Swain: But I enjoyed it, it was fun, it was something out of my comfort zone to a point, and I miss it a lot but i'm getting involved in some stuff around the area with a little bit different time frame, but it's still kind of fun.

00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.830
Andy Miller III: that's great well Jason thanks so much for your time, it means a lot to me.

00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:16.770
Andy Miller III: Thanks for sharing the book and remember you can get your copy so check that out with all those ways I offered earlier, where you can share.

00:54:17.100 --> 00:54:24.720
Andy Miller III: A link, you can make a comment or you can join our email list, and you can win an opportunity, you can get an opportunity to win a copy thanks so much Jason God bless you.

00:54:25.020 --> 00:54:26.850
Jason Swain: All right, thank you really you.

Copyright ©2024 Andrew S. Miller III