Andy Miller III
Cover Image for William Booth's Teacher Dr. William Cooke with Peter Collins

William Booth's Teacher Dr. William Cooke with Peter Collins

March 14, 2024

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Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast I'm so glad you come along. This is gonna be a fun episode for those of you who like history. And if you don't like history, you should like history, I wanna make sure to get people's interest in

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Andy Miller III: my favorite subject, the Nineteenth Century Methodist movement as a whole. And why is this important? Why is this important for our time? Well, you're gonna find out, because many of the things that are happening across the globe right now.

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Andy Miller III: as Methodism is again kind of expressing itself in new ways, and when I use the word Methodism, I'm thinking of it in a very broad way that includes denominations like the Salvation Army, the Free Methodist Church, the Church of Nazarene, and the like. And so in that broad movement there have been historical antecedents that have

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Andy Miller III: really kinda give us insight into our own times. And so that's what I'm hoping. You'll get from today's. Podcast this podcast comes to you from Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. Our spring semester is getting underway here very soon, and so if you're interested in going deeper in your faith and preparing to be a pastor who's ready to serve

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Andy Miller III: trusted churches around the world. We would love to be connected with you. We might have people listening today from Australia, and we have a poly, synchronous learning modality which makes it possible for us to have people

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Andy Miller III: all around the globe participating in our programs. We have more students from more than 60 different countries. So it's really a fascinating thing, all right. Also, I have my friend Bill Roberts, who is a financial planner who helps sponsor this podcast those of you, he often helped savage, army, officers and pastors and people who need to think about the way they're going to retire, and often we don't do that until too late. So check out William H.

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Andy Miller III: and I would love for people to sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the And if you do, you'll get a free resource called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. There's several other things there, small group of studies, one on heaven, one on the book of Jude. These are video-based studies that you could use in a Sunday school class

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Andy Miller III: or in a small group. We'd love for you to check those out at Andy Miller. The third com. That's Andy Miller Iii. Com. All right. I am welcoming into the podcast. Now, my guest.

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Andy Miller III: Major Peter Collins, who comes to us from down under Peter. Welcome to the podcast

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Peter Collins: thanks very much, Andy. I'm on holidays at the moment and on the new South Wales coast. The Pacific Ocean is just 5 kilometers away. And I'm

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Peter Collins: I'm presenting this from my sister-in-law's room. So

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Andy Miller III: well, thank your sister in law for us. We're so glad that technology gives Us. This opportunity to connect together reason. I've invited Peter on the podcast is he sent me his book and one way to get on my podcast is to send me a book for free, and then I probably is a definite way in. And it's must have been significant. Cause this is, if those of you are watching on Youtube. It's a pretty thick book. It's a hard cover book, and it coming from all the way. Down on on the coast there in Australia.

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Andy Miller III: It's a significant sense. So thank you, Peter, for sharing this with me.

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Peter Collins: That's okay. Yeah. It's a. It's a self published book. Yeah, Mark. And I decided to underwrite it.

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Peter Collins: and it all started because of Covid.

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Peter Collins: After one week of Covid I had enough. So I went back to my earlier interest in sales and history, and and looking at the life and the interaction of winning cool with wouldn't do.

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Peter Collins: And

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3 years later II had enough material to publish a book, and and I bring up a friendly printer

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Peter Collins: and said, Look, I just want you to bind this. All these pages, these 500 pages. I want you to bind them. And he said, No, I'll do better than that. Well, actually

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we'll do.

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Peter Collins: We'll do. We'll do 6 copies as a tryout and

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Andy Miller III: And then after that we see what happens. Yeah, fine. Well, the book is called 2 Williams and their contemporaries, and is William Cook, who lived 1806 to 1884, and William Booth. Now there's much more than just that. But I I'm out. This is a subject that is very fresh to me. I'm I've written about William Cook in my dissertation, which isn't published yet, and I might have to change him. Based upon your work, we'll see.

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Andy Miller III: But nevertheless, it's really interesting to me. But before we get into that here, would you just tell us I, your. I introduce you as Major, so you're a retired officer now, but tell us just a little bit about yourself and and it before we get into this book.

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Peter Collins: Okay, I'm married to Margaret. I've got 3 3 granddaughters, 8 grandkids.

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We have been retired for 8 years.

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Peter Collins: and we worship at the Armdale Corps in Adelaide.

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Margaret is the core treasurer.

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Peter Collins: and I look after the men's ministries, and we're both involved in the just for us program, which is a mentoring music program for children in state from schools. And we've got about 45 children from 10 schools in the area, and we see them twice a week, one once at school for a lesson, and then they all come together for combined rehearsal

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on Thursday afternoon.

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Peter Collins: and we just love the kids and the interaction that they have with the core.

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Peter Collins: And we asked the Lord to bless the ministry.

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Peter Collins: And it's a long term ministry we associate with the kids for up to 4 years

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Peter Collins: and get to that fence very well, and we feel so nice to be part of it. Yeah, so tell us about some of the appointments you had. I know you had one, at least one appointment.

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Peter Collins: We we finished out. We we started our officership at the the old training College at 68, Victoria right with a castle I did,

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Peter Collins: towers and and red brick

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Peter Collins: designed by him at Booth, and we, but we finished it at the next college.

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Peter Collins: So the training colleges have book ended our service.

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Peter Collins: We spent 5 or 7 years at the the first college and then we were core offices, then in youth work. Division secretary back to Co. Work.

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Peter Collins: Then

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Peter Collins: that that

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Peter Collins: back to the training college.

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and then and then we retire. In fact, my last job

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Peter Collins: was to be the D Commissioner for

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Andy Miller III: the second college. Okay? So that either Burrows College

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Peter Collins: with an all shooting Sydney, as well, you know.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, interesting. So that's interesting. And the various places you're able to serve. Now, one of the interesting things to me is that as you look at this research that you put together, and you traveled the world making this happen and looked at a variety of things. My! Here's my little take

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Andy Miller III: William Cook.

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Andy Miller III: COOA. E. Sometimes some people say Coke, I say cook

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Andy Miller III: is often, oh, underrated character in the life of William Booth, because

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Andy Miller III: often William Booths er and I'm gonna give my little intro, and then you correct me if you want. So William Booth's early biographers, particularly Harold Begby, and even WT. Stead and Sinjin Irvine Irvin

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Andy Miller III: characterize Booth as an anti-theological

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Andy Miller III: zealot, and he was so much so like Harold Begbie would say things like he was plagued by theology. So anything that moved in the direction of formalized

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Andy Miller III: religion or traditional theology or theological disciplines was seen as something that William Booth just couldn't stand, and

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Andy Miller III: that was personified by his time in the Methodist new connection, and his training in the Methodist new connection, and people think about his leaving in 1861, the supposed dramatic moment of that time, and he only spent a couple of months in William Coke's training program, and obviously he just couldn't stand it.

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Andy Miller III: And he he just didn't want to read anything. He just wanted to go out and save people, and therefore he was better off.

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Andy Miller III: Well, because of that positioning. It's made it seem like William Cook has not been a very helpful person in William Booth's life. And people like Alex Nichol, who was one of the early biographers and early, you know, leader of William Booth, who eventually left

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Andy Miller III: even like, said, oh, he just took his theology book and threw it, but against the wall he just couldn't stand it. And that conflates an earlier story which was actually about something else in his life. All of this to say, William Cook doesn't get very much credit in William Booth's story, and you've done a great work in helping us unearth the significance of William Cook as an individual, but also his influence on William Booth. So now, do you want to disagree with me about anything I said. There before we get going.

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Peter Collins: No, I want to say that what what you're saying is exactly right.

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Peter Collins: William Cook. In 80 93, the year before he died. wrote a letter in support of William Booth, when Mr. Charlesworth was was giving birth some trouble on behalf of

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Peter Collins: I was having with his daughter in Europe. But

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Peter Collins: William Cook wrote the following.

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Peter Collins: he's to affirm

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Peter Collins: with his character. He said. that he is an outstanding English student. He has comprehensive

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Peter Collins: general knowledge. He's a diligent student, and I tested his character, and I thought that was nice to read. And of course that letter is in the book that you've got on your table before you.

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Peter Collins: It's interesting going back to. When Booth came to London when he was 20, he eventually linked up after leaving the Wesley, and he he linked up with the Reformers.

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Peter Collins: and he felt then at the time that with the people, both at Winfield House and and also at

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Peter Collins: The sporting sorry

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Peter Collins: he had insufficient material, and he wasn't well equipped.

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Peter Collins: And One of the things he said was, I've gotta make sure that that I don't start quoting a young lady too soon, because if I do, I'm sure that's going to affect the possibility that I had to improve myself.

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Peter Collins: And the next thing we know that rabbits yes, rabbits arranges for him to take Katherine home in a cab.

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Peter Collins: and within 20 min. Booth is absolutely purpose in love with with Katherine Booth.

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and so that affected his early plans.

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Peter Collins: Mind you, she helped him. She provided him with material. He knew he needed help, and and she was the Biblical scholar. She was theologian.

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Peter Collins: and she was able to help him in in in those in those days.

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Peter Collins: In 52 he there was a thought that he might link up with the Congregational Trainee College.

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Peter Collins: but after reading the material in his own heart, and with his knowledge of Wesley and theology and the life of John Wesley, he he stopped doing that, and and put the book to one side, if you like.

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Peter Collins: The book that we're talking about is is by eminent theologians from the Calvinist school and not Boots book, which is something that Nicole got wrong.

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Andy Miller III: right? Right?

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Peter Collins: A.

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Peter Collins: Now. I think probably that gives you an idea

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Peter Collins: of some of the early early life of of Booth. But I should add that that when he went.

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Peter Collins: after vacillating 5 times, when he actually ended up in the household of William Cook, and and was there for 4 4 months within a month. and there was revival experiences happening in the London circuit of the Methodist new connection.

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Peter Collins: And William Cook said to William Booth, William.

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Peter Collins: I've just listened to you soon, and daughters made a decision along with 23 others. Thanks. Very much is wonderful.

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Peter Collins: Keep going the way you're going, and God will bless you. And and taking courage, and he decided, Well, I'm not gonna muck around here. I'm I'm actually on the side as it is, and how I feel it. And so he gave it to monsterly sermon.

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Peter Collins: and I mean he. He knew Wesley in theology.

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Peter Collins: He had rejected Calvinist theology.

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Peter Collins: so you can say that that he was not versed in, you know, in a reasonable grasp of theology.

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Peter Collins: And

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Peter Collins: so I mean, before you know it. There was a revival in the London circuit, and he was asked to go to Guernsey, which was under the London circuit as well, and there was a revival there and then he went to the stronghold of the Methodist new connection in the potteries at Long Longton, one of the 6 towns in the potteries, and there were 1,200 comm people committed. Now.

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Peter Collins: where would he have the chance to settle down

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Peter Collins: and do a 3 or 4 year course in theology for the rest of his life. It was a revivalist. Yeah, and with more experience. He he ended up with stronger convictions.

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Peter Collins: and in the end. The Oxford University, bless them!

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Awarded him with

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Peter Collins: a doctor of civil law for his services to humanity and to the spare the girls forward. So you. You can't say that he wasn't equipped

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Peter Collins: to be an evangelist, right.

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Andy Miller III: or a pastor, or an administrator, or any of those type of things. It's easy. There has been a tendency to take leaders who particularly have a pragmatic bend, like William Booth, who wanted to resist language that would be connected to what he saw as dead religion. Now that's not exactly accurate, because he picked up a very live religion from the Methodist world that he was a part of. Nevertheless.

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Andy Miller III: because of that, people are quick to make him seem like only a pragmatist, as if there was no theological foundation. Now he wasn't an academic. He wasn't trying to be a scholar, but he was somebody who was. He was well read, and as you indicated this course of study that he went through with William Cook was formative.

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Andy Miller III: Here's one interesting thing I do. I do want to get back to the 1850 S. Here. This, what became the savage Army was East London Christian Revival Association

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Andy Miller III: started 1,865. But but one thing, just thinking about cooks influence.

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Andy Miller III: You might have seen this as well. When I was the archives in London for the International Heritage Center of the Salvation Army.

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Andy Miller III: I found in their special collections,

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Andy Miller III: some of Branwell Booth Booth's books, and they have William Cook's Christian Theology in its sixth edition.

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Andy Miller III: and it was very interesting to me as I opened that text up. I was holding Bramwell booths.

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Andy Miller III: Bramwell Booth is a son of William Booth, who took over leadership. I'm just saying this for our audience. I know you know all this, but when I opened it up I found this volume was annotated, significantly

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Andy Miller III: written in the margins, and actually I found a few flowers that Bradwell Booth had put and put in those pages. That was kind of fun, too, but what I saw was, I could see Bramwell and I asked the Stephen and Ruth to compare his signatures, and they said that this was Bramwell's writing

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Andy Miller III: brand, while Booth is very engaged with that 700 page theological text. And it just shows the significance that Cook had for the Booth family.

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Peter Collins: Yeah. yeah. So I've seen the pages, and I didn't see them directly. But I they were sent to me.

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and I

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Peter Collins: II couldn't read at all.

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Peter Collins: You're right. There was that that interest.

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Peter Collins: after all. The first edition. The 46 edition was the one that William, who would have been looking at in the in Number 3, the Crescent, Albany Road in Canberra.

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Andy Miller III: And yeah. So so he would have. This would have been the theological text, most likely, that William Booth studied in addition to Richard Watson's systematic as well. So if if you want to know where and and there are some very interesting studies have been done. Comparing

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Andy Miller III: William Booth's hermeneutical perspective with William Cooks, who had a high value for the influence of the spirit.

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Andy Miller III: So I think that's you. Anything else like some of the some of the theological influences you see in Cook that maybe were picked up by Booth and the Salvation Army.

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Peter Collins: Well, we'll certainly cook was strongly opposed. to that section of the church

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Peter Collins: that post, and over emphasis on ritual

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Peter Collins: and so in that sense it cooks ecclesiology was la lower ecclesiology, and so that suited if you like the outlook of

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Peter Collins: of Booth. who was a revivalist, and

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Peter Collins: you, you'd find it hard, I think, to fit in re ritual in a meeting led by a revivalist like William Booth.

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Peter Collins: Yeah. So he would have received an encouragement. Cook did say in that letter I mentioned before that he didn't necessarily agree with everything that William Booth did.

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Peter Collins: But he said in essence, he is a good man, and he's changed because of his ministries. Change the lives of thousands and thousands of people forgot. You know

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Andy Miller III: one of the reasons that there's some tension around Cook within Salvation Army historiography, historiographic literature is related to some things that happened in 1861

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Andy Miller III: Could you tell us a little bit about that?

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Peter Collins: Well. every year that Booth was involved in Methodist new connection.

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Peter Collins: There was a a question about W. Would he or would he not? Be an evangelist?

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Peter Collins: And in his heart William Bouve wanted to be a. A continuing evangelist away from past it.

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Peter Collins: Now for 3 years that happened. But then.

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Peter Collins: in that third year, William Booth, I've got to be careful which William will talk about here. But but William Booth

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Peter Collins: experienced the additional hardship. There was over enthusiasm. There was bad press, there was health, there was traveling. There was a pregnancy of his wife

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Peter Collins: and although in his heart he wanted to keep going his advances, what it turned out when when he was sent to Brigouse. It was the best thing for him. Not only was

00:21:45.010 --> 00:21:51.760
Peter Collins: it better for the family. II think, that that Catherine became pregnant again, and

00:21:52.110 --> 00:21:53.999
in that in that year

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Peter Collins: 10 there was a 10% increase in in the outcome of the ministry.

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Peter Collins: And yet William Bird did not send in one field report

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Peter Collins: to William put in that year.

00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:08.320

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Peter Collins: having done that year.

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Peter Collins: bearing in mind the year before, he'd had an amazing revival at Sheffield North in the Scotland Church, Scotland Street Church. Just amazing.

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Peter Collins: and you know, more than a thousand converts. And the people there was so bless, and so grateful that 3 months later they presented him with a testimonial

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Peter Collins: and gave him a

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Peter Collins: a picture which is on the front of the book. By the way, yeah.

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Peter Collins: that dates back to 50 59, I think only 59. Yeah.

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Peter Collins: And Catherine said to him, Look, all this adulation is nice, but be careful, you know. Don't let it go to your head, she said, but that was I was so grateful.

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Andy Miller III: I'm just trying to work at one while I'm taking down this track. What was the question again? Oh, yeah. Well, so you know, some people look at so I've we've had an effective ministry indicating in the Methodist new connection. And just for clarity, there were a lot of different Methodists

00:23:24.310 --> 00:23:30.239
Andy Miller III: ecclesial groups in the first 60 years after, on Wesley's death.

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Peter Collins: Bet there's new connection, was the first one, and

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Andy Miller III: maybe for some reasons, that I could share on another. Podcast he, he joined a Methodsoo connection, and then was eventually ordained in the methods Uk, which is very important to him. But nevertheless he left.

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Andy Miller III: He left. And that's where Cook comes into this story. That's right, that's right. So the move to go from being a full-time evangelist to

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Peter Collins: to Brick house was

00:23:59.790 --> 00:24:10.929
Peter Collins: partially, II reckon, because the influence of Cook, who knew Booth so well, and realize that he needed a break for his own sake and for his family's sake.

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Peter Collins: because there are times after revival he'd he'd have to have a race for 3 weeks. Such was his temperament

00:24:19.710 --> 00:24:25.080
Peter Collins: and when he in was involved in a revival. It. It consumed him.

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Peter Collins: But there were wonderful results

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Peter Collins: now. The time came. For him to move from

00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:41.860
Peter Collins: Brick House to Gateshead, and in Gateshead there was a wonderful industry, and it was the converting shop.

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Peter Collins: and thousands was was saved. And II think, instead of being 150 people there, I think, within 2 weeks or 2,000 people in the congregation. and it was just a wonderful outreach. And the first year happened the second year

00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:00.809
in the in the third year

00:25:00.820 --> 00:25:07.340
Peter Collins: he'd experience this serious ill health and his wife for 9 weeks, and in that time

00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:13.989
Peter Collins: Katherine Booth came in and took control of the church, and the people loved her.

00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:23.030
Peter Collins: and because of that, from there on, really, Catherine, we were able to work as a team which which brought wonderful results.

00:25:23.270 --> 00:25:24.260
Peter Collins: But

00:25:25.370 --> 00:25:31.859
Peter Collins: after 3 years there, Guy said, someone had to make the decision. What we gonna do with we're gonna do this.

00:25:32.170 --> 00:25:42.940
Peter Collins: Yeah. And he wanted to, so he wanted to stay. He wants excuse me. He wanted to become a evangelist. and I think there was a lot of

00:25:43.100 --> 00:25:47.910
Peter Collins: a lot of division at the conference.

00:25:48.580 --> 00:25:53.160
After all, William Booth had done such a wonderful job as a pastor.

00:25:53.300 --> 00:26:02.390
Peter Collins: and the the the committee that looked after appointments. We really wanted to put him in at Newcastle.

00:26:02.620 --> 00:26:11.770
Peter Collins: where there was difficulties with the elders in the church, and it was suppressed. and someone like could really lift it up

00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:18.379
Peter Collins: anyway. In in the end the the decision was made that he go to

00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.240
Peter Collins: Newcastle, which eventually excuse me, didn't evictuate.

00:26:23.550 --> 00:26:31.880
Peter Collins: But the trigger for that was when, in the midst of the debate, and the debate was bogged down. William

00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:35.229
Peter Collins: Cool stood up

00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:44.810
Peter Collins: and made a proposal that any any person with gifts in in revivalism.

00:26:45.120 --> 00:26:49.200
Peter Collins: with the permission of the Soviet leaders.

00:26:49.450 --> 00:26:52.040
Peter Collins: could be involved in revival.

00:26:52.370 --> 00:26:59.019
Peter Collins: but at the same time take on a pastor, which meant that if William Booth was going to

00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:11.649
Peter Collins: except this, he would need to not only minister a difficult church at Newcastle, but also give himself to revivalism. And Catherine, for one, knew that it would kill him

00:27:12.780 --> 00:27:13.910
Peter Collins: more or less.

00:27:14.070 --> 00:27:32.479
Peter Collins: And she often wondered how long he had to go. You know she had to look after him. So it was a disappointment for the Methodist new connection. It was a disappointment for the booths, but it began a full year Frontier ministry on their own.

00:27:32.540 --> 00:27:44.639
Peter Collins: Yeah, for them to do their own thing, and they didn't want to set up another church. They were quite happy to work with other churches. and after 4 years of amazing ministry

00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:54.199
Peter Collins: Booth, who'd wanted to be a a traveling evangelist, if you like. stopped in London and stayed there.

00:27:54.230 --> 00:27:55.869
Peter Collins: and of all people

00:27:55.900 --> 00:28:09.549
Peter Collins: found that his ministry was with the degraded poor. the people in East London, with all its fill for the squalor. That's where he found himself.

00:28:09.850 --> 00:28:20.300
Andy Miller III: And that's how the Christian Mission started. Oh, good! You did great job summarizing that period. That's so good. The one interesting things that happens in this period

00:28:20.790 --> 00:28:24.589
Andy Miller III: is that that little story you told about cook standing up.

00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:41.279
Andy Miller III: Part of what is going on there is, and and some army biographers have looked back at that as as if he was a stopping booth, stopping him from being evangelists. He needed but one interesting thing to think about as a why, that was significant.

00:28:41.410 --> 00:28:44.540
Andy Miller III: I don't know. This is the Methodist. Do connection

00:28:44.930 --> 00:28:45.960
Andy Miller III: came about

00:28:46.020 --> 00:29:03.330
Andy Miller III: in part. And and you detail this well, and I really like this. So if people are wanting to understand what was going on these denominations, you do a great job of giving us that history, giving us cook's history. We've just talked about almost the end of Cook's life right now. And this was a significant

00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:11.129
Andy Miller III: thinker leader within methods, new connection. But one of the things that marked new connection. Methodism was that it was based

00:29:11.230 --> 00:29:26.119
Andy Miller III: in this principle of liberty, and not being a top-down organization, they resisted Wesleyan Methodism, and what they saw as an autocratic.

00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:34.630
Andy Miller III: pastor-led organization. And so the new connection was one that was bringing the voice of the lay people together.

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:47.360
Andy Miller III: So if you can imagine that there's this kind of almost Presbyterian model where there's the administration and the pastors and the lay people well, in that setting. They were not

00:29:47.390 --> 00:29:50.740
Andy Miller III: at all interested in there being

00:29:50.890 --> 00:30:01.870
Andy Miller III: an evangelist who would be paid by the conference or the denomination. and then, somehow, seen, as above the churches.

00:30:02.280 --> 00:30:05.560
Peter Collins: there's a high priority and Methodist new connection.

00:30:05.570 --> 00:30:22.139
Andy Miller III: In the Methodist new connection for a local church and and a traveling evangelist almost works against that idea. And so do you do you feel I feel like that was. And when I've read the documents and II took a long time to.

00:30:22.180 --> 00:30:40.499
Andy Miller III: you know, transcribe the actual conference minutes of maybe you saw those 2 at the John Rylands library. I mean, it takes a while, but I think I think there's something about that. What do you think about? Why, I mean, it's one thing to say, okay, well, William Booth just need to get out and start his own thing.

00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:43.630
Andy Miller III: But why did the new connection

00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:50.470
Andy Miller III: resist? Him his, his desire to be an evangelist? Do you think my idea is right?

00:30:51.390 --> 00:30:56.519
Peter Collins: Yup, william Booth was so successful as

00:30:56.550 --> 00:31:12.639
Peter Collins: a revivalist, that the reports coming into the methods, new Connection Magazine, edited by Cook Research, that really it swapped everything else that was going, and that was a danger we import not only had to encourage and foster

00:31:13.070 --> 00:31:17.640
William Boo, but he also had to encourage the rest.

00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.659
Peter Collins: The rest of the circus as well.

00:31:22.430 --> 00:31:23.710

00:31:25.470 --> 00:31:27.349
it's interesting that

00:31:27.490 --> 00:31:32.490
Peter Collins: when Booth started up the the Christian Mission with with Catherine

00:31:33.570 --> 00:31:39.599
Peter Collins: that I took on the the doctrine, the governance, the compassion

00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:42.949
of the methods, new connection.

00:31:44.130 --> 00:31:45.470
Peter Collins: until

00:31:45.930 --> 00:31:57.680
Peter Collins: the the people in the mission themselves said, Look, this is getting bogged down this this too much discussion. You are brilliant leader. You've got a vision. We want you to lead us. Please lead us.

00:31:58.130 --> 00:32:09.590
Peter Collins: and that's when it moved from a conference led policy to one in which you will improve, was the benevolent but an autocratic leader.

00:32:09.730 --> 00:32:22.730
Peter Collins: and that that system worked well for the introductory phase of the Salvation Army. But, as you know. By the by, the 1920 s. There was need for change because of

00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:25.770
Abram, who faithfully kept up the model.

00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:32.200
Peter Collins: But there was a lot of resistance because of nepotism and

00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.490
Peter Collins: the fact that he was about my age, you know.

00:32:35.670 --> 00:32:36.360
Andy Miller III: Huh?

00:32:36.650 --> 00:32:40.469
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, it gets to be prop problematic at any

00:32:40.710 --> 00:32:44.859
Andy Miller III: that system. That's that's what I think. William Booth.

00:32:44.990 --> 00:32:55.019
Andy Miller III: where? Where he even said of his mentor, his his hero, John Wesley. Yeah, even said that John Wesley was a failure organizationally.

00:32:55.060 --> 00:33:13.609
Andy Miller III: when I say that in my my Methodist context, where I'm generally working with people who have been united methods now, global methods. They're surprised because but William Booth really felt like the weak weakness. It's not exactly correct. Was that what John Wesley wasn't organized? He didn't have enough control.

00:33:13.630 --> 00:33:16.339
Andy Miller III: he said, such that the Hugh Price use.

00:33:17.430 --> 00:33:19.720
Peter Collins: Look! The

00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:30.419
Peter Collins: John Wesley was able to build up the the Methodist societies, and they became the church in the end because he took control

00:33:30.870 --> 00:33:35.449
Peter Collins: and make sure that his name is on the the titles.

00:33:35.740 --> 00:33:47.310
Peter Collins: And then he had control of of the ministry. and that was okay for the formative days on what became the ruthless church? Yeah. But but when in 70 91, when

00:33:47.450 --> 00:33:52.730
Peter Collins: when Wesley passed away, it was only a couple of years before

00:33:52.890 --> 00:34:00.110
Peter Collins: there was an eruption, and the methods new connection to you and Andrew Killen was was created.

00:34:00.620 --> 00:34:01.530
Peter Collins: Yeah.

00:34:01.820 --> 00:34:12.059
Peter Collins: and was all about polity. It was all about governance absolutely, and the and the fact that it see it seems that the Wesleyan

00:34:12.170 --> 00:34:19.669
leaders were playing musical chairs, you know, with each other for all the top jobs. And it was London, London based.

00:34:20.020 --> 00:34:31.119
Peter Collins: And there was a call out from the provinces, you know, we we need to change change the mode. And there was a lot of upheaval in Methodism.

00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:47.079
Andy Miller III: Yeah. So one biographer, one historian, calls it the age of this unity. And so and this is what I think part of the real innovation

00:34:47.350 --> 00:34:54.579
Andy Miller III: of William Booth and the army. The savage army is its polity. That was now there was

00:34:54.770 --> 00:34:57.370
Andy Miller III: antecedents to that in the

00:34:57.470 --> 00:35:24.089
Andy Miller III: Catholic tradition with the Jesuits, who also had a general. But at the same time this within Protestantism is very unique. To have an organization that's run like not even. It's more than a military, because you have. William Booth had ultimate ownership. Power over who who could be his successor, and could control all the finances, all of the personnel. This was a unique.

00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:26.740
Andy Miller III: unique poly system.

00:35:26.780 --> 00:35:31.020
Peter Collins: Not only that, but he had more or less the respect of his children

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.900
had incredible influence for a period

00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:44.250
Peter Collins: at a time when the Salvation Army was responding to immigration and going around the world. And by the time

00:35:44.390 --> 00:35:47.320
Peter Collins: Booth died I think the army was in 14

00:35:48.040 --> 00:35:51.769
Peter Collins: 14 different countries. My memory tells me, yeah.

00:35:52.950 --> 00:36:02.830
Andy Miller III: yeah, it's a fact. And I think all this happens because of a Wesleyan theology. Understanding of conversionism. And this was fed.

00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.059
Andy Miller III: Yeah, him by William Cook.

00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:10.420
Peter Collins: The interesting thing is that that wind. Booth reverted back to

00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:17.080
Peter Collins: John Wesley's patent of strong leadership and

00:36:17.390 --> 00:36:21.470
Peter Collins: personality leadership, if you like, and that's something that really move here.

00:36:21.540 --> 00:36:23.060
Peter Collins: There's no doubt about it.

00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:29.910
Peter Collins: He was. He was a strong personality.

00:36:29.950 --> 00:36:41.519
Peter Collins: Wg. Said. Wrote that that William Boo was a was a bit like Abraham Lincoln, you know. They were tall.

00:36:41.640 --> 00:36:47.140
Peter Collins: spare, I mean, with a touch of humor, who were given

00:36:47.700 --> 00:36:57.689
Peter Collins: a responsibility to fill the breach, you know, and and Fireman Lincoln. It was a transportation. It was the the end of slavery, for for William

00:36:57.820 --> 00:37:02.670
Peter Collins: Booth it was he, straight love for people because he loved them.

00:37:03.260 --> 00:37:07.860
Peter Collins: He proclaimed the gospel to bring salvation to the assault. Yeah.

00:37:07.910 --> 00:37:13.099
Andy Miller III: well, and don't mention to Abraham Lincoln about the last name of the person who killed him.

00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:35.090
Andy Miller III: maybe has been to find

00:37:35.150 --> 00:37:39.280
Andy Miller III: many newspaper articles that have

00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:53.880
Andy Miller III: a stenographer who has come, who has written out the speeches of William Booth, and and they also record the audience's reaction, and one of the things, I think, is fascinating about the that stineographed

00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:59.550
Andy Miller III: all that literature. I would love to do more on this in the future, was. William Booth was hilarious.

00:37:59.740 --> 00:38:02.949
Peter Collins: Yeah, he was incredibly funny.

00:38:02.980 --> 00:38:15.089
Andy Miller III: People II found some places would say laughter after you'd say comment extended laughter. Maybe you've seen these 2, or it'll say, laughter for 30 s.

00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.730
Peter Collins: Yeah, they're they're in the book that you talk about, which is.

00:38:19.890 --> 00:38:32.169
Peter Collins: it's by the way, it's it's you can get it for $29 from publishing supply. Tell us more about how they can find this book.

00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:34.580
Peter Collins: Yeah, okay.

00:38:34.910 --> 00:38:37.370
Peter Collins: just just email Sbn, S,

00:38:37.620 --> 00:38:42.739
Peter Collins: we'll ring them up and there's some copies there you have to remember. It's a big book.

00:38:43.550 --> 00:38:55.190
Peter Collins: It's it's it's a book full of information and postage wise is is a bit of a challenge. But We didn't want to make it any smaller.

00:38:55.520 --> 00:39:02.199
Peter Collins: We were the publishers. so wasn't the publisher coming on saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah, cut it in half. No.

00:39:02.210 --> 00:39:11.399
Peter Collins: this is what we're doing. And you know, we just hope that it does some good around the the army world and lifts the profile of William Cook

00:39:11.730 --> 00:39:28.550
Peter Collins: and helps people to understand the romance of the booths. his drive, his weaknesses, his challenges. and he's victory. And in the end the the way in which he wanted to save the world. Yeah. So a remarkable story.

00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:47.020
Andy Miller III: Well, thank you, Peter, for taking time to do this. Take, thank you for taking time with me for sending me a book. It's something that I'm using. You have some original resources here that I've never seen. And I really appreciate you. Taking the time to do this in your retirement use of your retirement time, I need to add.

00:39:47.190 --> 00:39:55.479
Peter Collins: okay, now, how about the podcast today? If it's okay with you, I'll go and have a swim now.

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