Andy Miller III
Cover Image for Movements that Move with Steve Bussey

Movements that Move with Steve Bussey

February 9, 2023

Steve Bussey and I talk through non-negotiables of movements that move. We think specifically about traditions that come in the wake of the evangelical revival led by John Wesley. Today we look at an article that suggested some non-negotiables for the Salvation Army.

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WBS Conference on Human Sexuality

Does the statement “faithful Christians disagree on issues of human sexuality” line with historic witness of the Church? At WBS we are hosting a conference seeking to answer that question, entitled God’s Gift of Sexuality: Mere Opinion or Christian Dogma. We would love for you to attend online—February 10-11.

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Welcome to the more to the story, Podcast. I am so glad you are here. It means so much to me that people. All of the world are kind of connecting to this podcast. And look, we know this is a tough time for people to be serving in ministry. Leadership positions around the world never last like I'm really thankful for the opportunity to come and serve the people who listen to this podcast on a regular basis. I have a great show for you. One of my reoccurring guests is here, and i'll tell you about him in just a minute.

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Andy Miller III: But you need to know

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Andy Miller III: the more the story. Podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches, and that happens through a range of programs from bachelors and masters to doctoral programs. In addition to several lay initiatives that you can find out Wesley, Biblical Seminary, Edu; and secondly, i'm thankful to my friend Bill Roberts for being a sponsor of this podcast, since it's inception he comes alongside people it helps him plan for their future financial lives

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Andy Miller III: through their retirement and savings, plans and all kinds of things. He's particularly There's a link in my show notes to him. And finally, I want you to sign up from an email list. Would you do that in any of your watches on Youtube? Would you hit that heart, or whatever it is to follow, or like

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Andy Miller III: same thing on social media. But my email list is a way that I send information sometimes like deals for people as well. Andy Miller, the And I give folks if you sign up for my email list a free tools like a Mini course

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Andy Miller III: on learning to exegee Scripture in a way that prepares you for proclaiming it. It's called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. And there's a 45 min video teaching in a eight-page pdf. Document that you can use to help you get ready to present God's word to congregations and classrooms we'd love to be. I'd love to get that to you so check that and sign up for my email list there, all right. I am glad to welcome into the Podcast. One of my good friends.

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Andy Miller III: Steve Busy is coming to us from the Salvation Army's Eastern Cultural headquarters in suffering New York is that where it is West suffering West Nyac, New York. The train schools there. Okay, that's right.

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Steve Bussey: Welcome, Steve. It's good to see you. It's good to be back, Andy, and we always appreciate all the great work that you're doing for the West. Me in the world, you know, connecting people together, and it's always good to have a great conversation with you.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. Well, it's fine, because I love the way that August, you and I come from a similar tradition in the Salvation Army, which is one of these evangelical Wesley and denominations at the same time, like you've been emphasizing a lot lately, and the things you've been putting out the kind of broader connections of the Wesley and holiest tradition so like. Why would you tell me some of that, like what's been intriguing to your lives? How we how many people just like to stick with savage Army staff?

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Steve Bussey: Yeah. Well, I think I think you know again, when we look at the world, if we're living in, and I mean this is true, not just in the someish, but I think it's probably true of

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Steve Bussey: most of the nominations of those who are listening to this podcast

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Steve Bussey: is that we seem to be in a culture which we've shifted from theological language to therapeutic language. Along with that we see that the sort of overarching discipleship has has reduced significantly, and and discipleship has sort of, you know. Again, we you know I grew up, you know, in the seventies and eightys and stuff like that. You know where youth group was about having fun and games things like that. And yet now we're in a world which is radically shifted from from being dominantly, you know, driven by a Christian world

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Steve Bussey: view to to to no longer, really that being dominant. And with that I think a lot of us can find ourselves adrift. I need to go back to the rock from which we're here, and I think I think the difficulty with that is that that those who are going back, if we only have a very sort of thin understanding of our decline to process

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Steve Bussey: that's not going to be robust enough to handle sort of the waves that we're facing, and so to go deeper leads you back to some of those primary sources that have not just shaped the Salvation Army like William and Katherine Booth. But those who have shaped William and Katherine Booth as well, which leads us

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back to Wesley.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. And all of these denominations that in and not just in our nations parachute church organizations, even movements around the world. I think about my friends who are in Wgm. Oms. So Gospel Mission, which is now the one missions, and then one Mission society. These groups that come from this, the same tradition, no matter what it is. Generally it's like a sub category of something that goes back backwards. And so it's helpful to understand some of these history

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Andy Miller III: historical foundations. And then okay, the lot of that points as as like the seminar. I sort of Wesley Biblical Seminary points back to John, but I I think it's helpful to keep in mind. You know it's like John Wesley is not the founder of Christianity. It's like we look to Wesley and William Booth, or whoever it is, you know we can list any any group of leaders

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Andy Miller III: as a point as to Jesus. Right?

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Steve Bussey: Yeah, I think, like, Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. You know we look to people who have embodied what it means to be a follower of Christ in a great way, and who we're able to demonstrate scaled impact in their generation. So obviously we look to Scripture. The the script away of salvation is what we're really looking for. But those who are going to help us to interpret that, you know I can't think of anybody better than a John Wesley out there.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, what we would. Is that not a bad one to line up with? Now, here's what's interesting. You and I had a conversation last fall. That was a podcast we put out. I think it was like a live conversation. We're responding to an international event in the Establishment army. Now, I want all my friends who are United Methodist, Global Methodist, Free Methodist, Congregational, Methodist, Nazarene, and the like to hang in here because I, as you know, I've had conversations lately. I think some some are coming out around this. I have one coming out very soon with Bishop Scott Jones. We've had leaders of a Global Methodist Church.

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Andy Miller III: I'm having a conversation with somebody who's in the Nazarene Church, who has a a group called the Holiness Partnership. Jared Henry is coming on here soon, and, like I think it's very similar to the conversation you you and I are going to have about

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Andy Miller III: this particular denomination. That's how we start me, and so I want to just keep everybody kind of a tune to fact that the things Stephen are going to talk about about specifics within this average army are happening.

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Andy Miller III: and a nomination near you, coming to a theatre a new year, You, this is what's happening. So just be aware, like as we're working through this, and you and I talked about the General Establish army internationally to the Establishment army put together like some really clear statements about orthodoxy and human sexuality. Sometime this past fall I think of September, and at that event, too, there was another presentation, and some of those documents have been produced until we've been able to access

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Andy Miller III: access some of that and see if you are really encouraged by what you read. There. Is that right?

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Steve Bussey: Yeah. On on the actually the Savage Army's International Headquarters news site

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Steve Bussey: it was available to the general public, so you could go. Take a look at that. Maybe I can give you the link for the show notes as well, but but Commissioner Commissioners Ted and Debbie Horwood presented a a very, very interesting paper that was reported on there that talked about how this new wine work in in new wineskins, and sort of asking this question of what is the future of of of our denomination of this movement, and really sort of what are the non negotiable?

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Steve Bussey: What are the things that we cannot in the midst of a rapidly changing world? Not let go of as well.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah interesting and in this it it's interesting. I'm not sure. If this happened to other denominations. That word non-negotiable comes out up quite a bit, because we need to think about the necessity for changing. And of course, the very history of our tradition of the savage army is based upon radical change in the nineteenth century like a completely new approach to how the church is to operate. And so, if you look at the early documents of the savage Sharby, it is like.

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Andy Miller III: Let's get some new forms like let's make sure that we're not just like

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Andy Miller III: putting ourselves into all patterns that aren't productive. So naturally we come this place of still thinking that we've become an a group that's existed down for more than 150 years. So how do we kind of define the essence of that group, and so often it comes up through these non-negotiable and so I think this was a a powerful presentation, and I think what we'll do is I kind of walk through some of that now there will. There were several points and let's just let's just go through and see what's the first one?

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Steve Bussey: Can I just say one thing before before we get into the details of that, just just to reinforce your point as well. And why this applies to to some of our other friends in in Para Church and other denominations.

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Steve Bussey: So so I I work in the field of strategy for the savage army, and and I look at at denominational strategy, nonprofit strategy, but also corporate strategy. And in corporate strategy there's something with they call understanding the transcendent purpose of the organization.

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Steve Bussey: You know. You read like a son, Simon, and he talks about starting with your Why, I know what you're Why, it's the zoom calls and Jerry Porous, you know, built to last. I talk about that. But it's a very, very important thing that in organization needs to know what that transcendent purpose is, and and I think, as Christians, we need to have that North Star Those, you know, we have to understand why we exist

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Steve Bussey: right. And then I would say, You know again, root in the Bible the great Commission, the great commandment things like that that we know. But then, along with that as a denomination for us as well. What are the things that define the boundaries of a of a people that have been knit together globally and historically. What is it that unites us together? There has to be some common elements. And so so I think that those non-negotiables are the glue that holds us together, and if we do.

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Steve Bussey: we don't have clarity on on what those are, and intentionality and reinforcing and protecting those, then we quickly quickly unravel. And that's true. I think, of any any organization.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, absolutely. So I in any group need to think through. This is like you just said so. It's a helpful tool and and like. Maybe, if we can lay this foundation, then we have a better perspective going forward.

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Andy Miller III: and and of course establishing these type of things, I think, are critical. We'll hopefully. We'll get to talk about this at some point, but this year in the Salvation Army it this summer will likely be a high council where a new international leader is elected, and I think this is a good time

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Steve Bussey: to be thinking through in for leaders, and to be praying for leaders as they think through this. But let's go through. So they had. Do they have 9 non-negotiable. That they they developed. Yeah, yeah. So let you know. At first they talked about like sort of what they call the balance to balance stool of the Salvation Army. The fact that you know it's using Galen's term. Now, what gallons wasn't the person came up with this he just poetically sort of codified it that we were called to say souls pro saints and sort of suffering humanity, and just talking about how just like a 3 like it's stool You can't have one like.

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Steve Bussey: you know, sort of figure out the other and stuff like that that we need to make sure that we're taking care of each of those. And so that sort of led into this discussion of these sort of what what they said as my non-negotiable. So do you want me to read them all out first. You just want to sort of take them one at a time.

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Andy Miller III: Maybe I'm saying his name wrong, but he wrote the Blood and Fire History of the Savage Army in Canada. He has several other pieces. He has this interesting piece, where

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Andy Miller III: at from a historian's perspective, he critiques the I Gallons idea now.

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Andy Miller III: So he he says, suggest that the 3 legged stool, the balance school isn't historically correct, and I I think that's right. It in the sense that you have savings tos growing saints and serving suffering humanity. Okay, I love that for now, right? But that wasn't necessarily a part of the early vision.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, like this wasn't clearly articulated at the beginning it was more or less like

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Andy Miller III: saving souls number, and and and certainly there was a sense of growing saints was there, but is a little shaky that that was really a part of the the the conversation at the beginning, but in the first 15 years, and then, of course, serving suffering humanity. Well, if their souls are there wasn't, it was mainly focus on the spiritual task, so I always say it's interesting. Let me just see we can't even get to 9 things. I'm. I'm. Still caught in the stool.

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Steve Bussey: I would I would agree that probably during the first 15 years, from 1,865 to 1,880. That that was something that was Again, Again, there was sort of ambiguity in terms of the identity and the purpose of what this

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Steve Bussey: East London Revival Society that became a Eastland mission that became a Christian mission. You know that they they were sort of in the in the prototyping phase of trying to figure who they were once they had clarity, and they that there are articles that do speak about intentional training particularly related to children. More so.

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Steve Bussey: But again, most of these individuals were coming out of sort of a Methodist tradition, or we're highly trained Methodists that we're sort of replicating that within East London and other sort of inner city type locations where they were serving throughout the United Kingdom. But I think that by the time that you get to to 1,878,

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Steve Bussey: where there are doctrines and disciplines that are put together, that there is intentional training mechanism. They continue to experiment with the form which it's going to take. They I play, I do see them playing around with the band system, the soldiers meeting concept and other things like that.

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Steve Bussey: What I do find very interesting is that by the early twentieth century, on all the articles of war there are 3 pictures.

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Steve Bussey: and those 3 pictures actually do depict the idea of saving people serving people and training people. So so, while while it might not have been poetically sort of

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Steve Bussey: codified. I think it was tacitly present by the actions When you think about salvation for both worlds in 1,889 and other things like that.

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Andy Miller III: you know. I I do think I I don't think it's it's codified as gallons has made it. But right I think it's just helpful to realize that even some of the institutional challenges that our experience in the establish I mean other denominations. We go back to the beginning. Sometimes it comes before that, and so gallons

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Andy Miller III: rightly as a leader comes and says, this is what this average Germany should do, and

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Andy Miller III: i'm not not debating that. But I think some of the challenges that we experience, even as we get eventually to talk about the Sacramento question are related to these issues from the game. Now, one of the thing is interesting that I've thought about. I've often just discarded this fact historically, is that there's a movement in the naming of the organization. There's like theological or an ecclesiological assumptions with the names. So, for instance, the first name is Association, the East London

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Andy Miller III: Revival Association. Then we came to East London Revival Union, then the East London Revival Society in the East London Christian Mission, then the Christian

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Steve Bussey: that was like within like months, and maybe like that that that evolution took place

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Steve Bussey: because quickly in the E, the vision changed so quickly because there was an ideal. They threw it out there. It failed. They said, that's not working, you know. There was like a what you know. There was sort of that rapid piece till they found something that they could settle on.

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Steve Bussey: And then and then what happened is when they sell on something that was producing an impact that then created ripple effect where people were beginning to say, hey, we'd like that over here, and stuff like that. So as it began to scale

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Andy Miller III: right, the success of this one small prototype experiment in East London scaled. That's where the definition has to almost be evaluated as well. And thus the naming of the organization right, so like 1,869. Then you have this move like Basically, there's a additional locations that are outside of East London, so that's when it becomes just simply the Christian mission, much less like what by the time we get this? Obviously an army.

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Andy Miller III: you know, 8, 9 years later. So but there's assumptions with this, and in those early assumptions this is like mainly thinking of. I I I think, of the first one, the Association.

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Andy Miller III: This is a group of people who's come together to bring the Gospel certain places. And this is this is where William Booth much later reflects and says.

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Andy Miller III: Well, we did, and this is my paraphrase. We wanted some. We wanted to

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Andy Miller III: preaching gospel. We want to send them to their churches. They weren't, we weren't accepted where they're sent. They didn't want to go. And then the third point which always gets me is, he says we wanted some of them for ourselves. Yeah, like something like in the soul saving effort. Iteration, too. Right? Right? This is it actually kind of pause there before you go on as well? The association Was it doesn't matter what your theology is, we're going to make a difference here. But when we want to keep something for ourselves all of a sudden, it's like we don't want to just be sort of open source on whatever

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Steve Bussey: or your theological conviction is. We need to define the parameters what we believe, because we actually strongly believe in this Wesley and doctrine. Therefore, what's going to create unity around that?

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah. And and and they move in that direction. So you have the the first time. You have like a real kind of constitution. It's 1,875, 1,878, They like a new iterations of this, but each one gets more particular theologically

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Andy Miller III: like they move away from the perseverance of the saints.

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Andy Miller III: and then a, and then they add a doctrine of holiness that i'm getting the order mixed up there, nevertheless, like this is like the clarity. And so when you start to get these type of things, and they say they hunker down, I say, like kind of focus in on a doctor of holiness in the early movement. This is where there's divisions people leave like. Well, that's what you're about. I'm out. And so I bring this up in light of the the gowen's stool idea

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Andy Miller III: in like I I affirm it. I affirm it there, unless I don't know that it provides the historical foundation that we need to be able to think about the the challenges that we experience. So just keep that in mind, like I, the the challenge that we have we thinking about the sacraments thinking about quality

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Steve Bussey: the idea of a three-legged stool

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Steve Bussey: to scientifically develop theories that would then be experimented upon. You know that that sort of what a society was now Bible societies, You know that we see emerging in the is the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. These these groups are sort of taking that

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Steve Bussey: more secular concept and bring it into the church.

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Steve Bussey: And so what William and Kath and Booth say is that we want a highly rigorous discipline process by which we ask the question, how might we pursue revival in the East End of London. And so that methodology, driven by mission, you know, really formats a a clear sort of

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Steve Bussey: you know.

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Steve Bussey: sort of boundaries of what they're really trying to do. It's part of what leads to their success as well, you know, I think it's interesting that they change from society, though, to mission, then.

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Steve Bussey: because they're saying okay, No, we've established the fact that we want to be thinking about this and experimenting and validating it. But this is about the mission which is driving towards

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Steve Bussey: accomplishing a a very defined end goal

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Andy Miller III: when they're picking up on another tradition that was going on already that had been going on for a couple of decades of Home Missions groups that were around. But before that it's it to this society. I think you're right. That, Sis, the use of the word society is almost generic, and connected to groups like William Carries.

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Andy Miller III: would eventually became Sp. C. K. Society knowledge right to publish her name, and John Wesley was a part, You know. He went to America with that group, so I I forget what is like Sga, the actual group that was ahead of it, but nevertheless, like it, the use of the word society is an organized discipline group, like kind of like, just being incorporated, but it also is connected

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Andy Miller III: to the more theological use of the term

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Steve Bussey: and bands in societies. Well, I was gonna say that that also comes from John West League, where I mean you literally, I mean until 1,820. I think it was 1,820. It might be in 1,829. You literally couldn't have another denomination time between. Besides, Anglicanism. Officially as the official church of I know this is good. Yeah, that's why. And so the formation of other official churches They could use that term. And so the idea of a society of people

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Steve Bussey: people that are in, together with a common AIM, was that was was commonplace as well amongst Methodists, too.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. So so this is interesting, like, just to think about these foundation. So as we get into these 9 points, it is good, it is. It's perfectly fine to think about that kind of

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Andy Miller III: the 3 legged stool like we. We need all of those. But historically it might be helpful for us to like. Just go back, go back a few years, go back a a ahead of that, too. So one of the the first point that they talk about is let me see if I can find it here. Oh, polity, church government. So now that we don't know what's actually said here. Now, this this is, though I believe the critical issue, and this comes in like a lot of people are suggesting that there needs to be

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Andy Miller III: contextualized zonal responses, so that the savage army in this region might view truth differently. I'm the I'm. The letting my card show here this this side the the the society, the savage, I mean this region, or the Nazarene Church. In this reason, or the Methodist Church here is going to look different. So let's just agree to let people disagree, and that means we're all kind of living out our truths, so that that's one of the

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Andy Miller III: political polity challenges of our of this time. But nevertheless, you have a distinct emphasis that I think is really helpful in thinking about our autocracy, our autocratic system. Some people think that's a bad word. It sounds like tearing it. But what do you think? What do you think is is needed when on that side, See, I get again coming back to the historical element of Why is it that we establish ourselves? Why why is that the Christian mission became the salvation.

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Steve Bussey: Because again and this this is something for my you know. Again, our broader audience to think about is that both the Congregational and the conferencing type systems.

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Steve Bussey: Historically. Again, if you can use that society based scientific process of testing and validating things, it seems that whenever there is that sort of form. There seems to be endless debate, right? And and often when there's a a lack of alignment, you know, you end up being bottlenecked, and really you can't advance

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Steve Bussey: forward.

00:28:03.520 --> 00:28:06.739
Steve Bussey: And so part of the frustration was

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Steve Bussey: a a a. Amongst those who are very mission driven. Those who will seek revival, you know, in the Christian mission that day, saying we need something that is going to cut through this this confusion, and create clarity and debate, and say, this is who we are with with clear guidelines, and and to appoint somebody who is going to oversee that process in many ways. John Wesley, I would say, was more of an autocratic.

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Steve Bussey: You know it was the 100 who succeeded him that was far more democratic, Oriented, and and I think that some of the great unity and scaling of Methodism was possibly because of that. And so and so when it comes to the the Salvation Army today.

00:28:54.260 --> 00:29:23.799
Steve Bussey: there are some things that are transcendent principles that shouldn't be up for debate, and in many ways is going to be. As I said, the the glue that holds us together. We need strong governance, ecclesiastical governance that is going to keep this together again. That ecclesiastical governance can translate into how we manage nonprofit services or into our corporate elements. But if it's not rooted in a robust ecclesiastical

00:29:23.810 --> 00:29:25.490
Steve Bussey: church polity.

00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:30.489
Steve Bussey: we, we we're gonna basically repeat the very problem which.

00:29:31.070 --> 00:30:00.860
Andy Miller III: But let me just I've been. I've been really. This might seem very boring to some people, but in the last the last 2 weeks I have just been in the constitutional deeds, the foundation deeds of the and so like, just for academic work, i'm doing. And so, as I've been looking at, just to let people know, maybe remind people. Maybe you already knew all this, but 1,870. The setup they set up basically like a conference system where the conference owns the reality of the Church, and so everything would come to that conference.

00:30:00.870 --> 00:30:30.419
Andy Miller III: 1,875 more power is given to William Booth. But at the same time, in 1,875, there still is a conference committee. It's like it's, like the President and the House in in the in the Congress, so to speak, and the the House still controls the purse strings. And so there was this, lamenting that we are still spending so much time in committees, and we just want to move away from that. So it's not until 1,878, even before the name of the aviation army comes along

00:30:30.520 --> 00:30:50.210
Andy Miller III: that we have this movement to give total control, and this means not just not just control, if personnel of finances. But the key thing was property that they gave the property control so that William Booth could liquidate access, sell assets, move people around, and it's interesting between

00:30:50.310 --> 00:30:56.969
Andy Miller III: 1,875, 1,878, the Constitution in 1,878; is a fourth the size

00:30:57.060 --> 00:30:58.680
Steve Bussey: it's so much shorter.

00:30:58.690 --> 00:31:17.610
Andy Miller III: and I was thinking that I didn't have to read any more, and they don't they, nevertheless, like what happens in that? That is that well, why is it shorter? They gave all the power to William Booth, and then why did they give the power away, you Booth? Because they are they some like mindless people. No, it has a national purpose like that's like we do not want. This is the kind of message, I think.

00:31:17.620 --> 00:31:25.430
Andy Miller III: for modern denominations, particularly established in order. I'm going to pick on a selfish army. And this is what the global method of search is trying to embrace. Cut

00:31:25.460 --> 00:31:36.879
Steve Bussey: out the administration. Now, can I add to that that they said that that person who was the general being William Booth.

00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:55.780
Steve Bussey: needed to so embody the beliefs, the values, the convictions, that that they are so deep, theologically and biblically and dynamic relationship with Christ, demonstrating holiness of heart that that was with such clarity that they would say, I totally trust that he or she

00:31:55.930 --> 00:32:06.949
Steve Bussey: will do what is absolutely best for the mission of the Salvation Army. So much so that I can trust that person to, you know, in many ways to to apostolically drive.

00:32:07.430 --> 00:32:15.900
Andy Miller III: I mean, think about what's happening not just there, but what's happening today. People do put that trust in those organizations. This happens in other denominations to

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.010
Andy Miller III: where they're say i'm going to let you

00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:32.019
Andy Miller III: pick the leaders who are going to move me, who are going to pick my the my, the color of my furniture, you know, who are going to You utilize assets like this is a huge thing, but yet

00:32:32.150 --> 00:32:42.819
Andy Miller III: I think what you'd suggest, and i'm not sure. I'm all the way there, Steve, that this model of strong control by one individual

00:32:42.830 --> 00:33:12.790
Steve Bussey: is necessary to the identity of organization. Let me clarify something, though I don't. I don't think that what William Booth did was just like i'm going to control everybody. That's not what it was. I I do believe it does. So. There's in in, in, in an organizational science system called organizational embeddx territory. And it's I I actually believe that we actually have a distributed power model within the subishrony where governance is actually distributed down to even the smallest local level. Right? But what is it that that autocratic?

00:33:12.800 --> 00:33:17.699
Steve Bussey: It's a that it's around a few key things. It's our identity.

00:33:17.820 --> 00:33:19.559
Steve Bussey: It's our purpose.

00:33:19.580 --> 00:33:36.169
Steve Bussey: It is our doctrine. It is our disciplines, and then it is to protect the transcendent mission, and along with that to coordinate the current global right, everything else

00:33:36.220 --> 00:34:04.479
Steve Bussey: that that it's, it's distributed to territory, to command to to frontline, you know, and stuff like that, and each person is a key stakeholder with a certain amount which they are empowered to fulfill. So it's not about choosing the colors of you know. Who cares? Yeah, i'm not saying they choose that. But you do put the power in the leader to make decisions for your life. That's why I think it's so important. But I yeah, it's not micromanaging like I

00:34:04.710 --> 00:34:16.290
Andy Miller III: I but what's interesting to me, though, is that there's this move away from committees and conference and administration to streamline. And I think that's beautiful like that. That was a great. That's why.

00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:31.690
Andy Miller III: after 1,878. Not just a name change, you know. Not formally recognized till 1,880 but nevertheless like Not just that. That's why they were such extreme growth. I mean the one of the greatest periods of the growth in church history, not just the Salvation Army. So

00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:43.619
Andy Miller III: what? What was it? Happy at a time? There was a freedom and ease, an ability to allow that mission to be guarded. And I think you, I think you highlight some really good points. So what to do?

00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:57.290
Steve Bussey: The other interesting thing about that 1,878 d pool? As well, and I've got to find where this was, because I I've read through all of them as well as I seem to have a problem just like you kicking out on strange things. But William Booth basically said that if

00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:11.760
Steve Bussey: I or anyone else in this rule were to stray from the identity of that, basically every out and out of money, and every property that we own should be taken and given to someone or some organization that will stay through to what that is.

00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:18.960
Andy Miller III: I, I think that is. And then and then he writes himself out of ever being able to change that deed pool

00:35:19.250 --> 00:35:30.209
Steve Bussey: that we found loopholes, you know, without, you know, without an Act of Parliament, you know. But like that was how confident they were in in in staying true to these doctrines and disciplines and mission.

00:35:31.010 --> 00:35:49.249
Andy Miller III: All right, all may it so tempting to go go a little bit deeper there, and we've only got to 1 point, so that's but but but governance is a key issue. Now, the second one is the Salvation people right that they want that that that if there's going to be an identity marked is that it's about salvation. Well, let's see. What do we save from

00:35:49.640 --> 00:35:50.700
Steve Bussey: saved?

00:35:50.710 --> 00:36:15.490
Steve Bussey: Okay, from what is salvation? What does it mean to be a Salvation people. We are a salvation people that are that are safe from sin. But we're saved for holy. We're safe to live for the glory of God and the salvation of the world received for happiness and holiness, right, you know, and a but but I mean again, if we're a Salvation people, then we do need to talk about something called sin, right? If you need to talk about the fact that there really is a heaven and a hell.

00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:24.750
Steve Bussey: we do have to talk about the fact that repentance and of faith are conditions for being justified and experiencing the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:37.369
Andy Miller III: Yes, this is what it means to be a salvation people. We believe that that eternal transformation will transform your temporal reality

00:36:37.650 --> 00:36:47.270
Steve Bussey: an. And so that is what night knits us together as a global and historic movement. If we shift from that, if we start coming up with other things.

00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:51.689
Steve Bussey: you know it's like, I don't, you know

00:36:51.770 --> 00:36:53.680
Steve Bussey: that's that's so much less

00:36:53.880 --> 00:37:12.009
Andy Miller III: it's it's such a robust vision. Right? Yeah, I've been interested. I i'm still doing a little bit more reading to see if it might, I might change this in future years. I probably will; but I think the most dominant theological belief of William Booth, like the one that shows up the most in his writing is his doctrine of Hell.

00:37:12.080 --> 00:37:41.570
Andy Miller III: Now, I've never really liked the way that all the articles finish with the eternal punishment of the wicked. That's our very last statement, like I would like to have that switch around. Maybe like you could have internal happiness righteous. But I think it's even the prominence of that slope it, and indicates how important, like an understanding of how like he really did believe in it like, I think. And there are plenty of other ideas and violationism, conditional immortality, all kinds of things that were present. People left the Christian mission and the savage army because of William boost Belief and hell

00:37:41.580 --> 00:37:52.770
Andy Miller III: like this was a a pretty clear reality that was infusing it. I found an article to in I the 1,880 S. Realton is 1. One article is the title. This is the title

00:37:53.180 --> 00:38:08.459
Andy Miller III: More Hell Explanation point like No, no, we're missing out. We're missing folks. We haven't had enough of this, but I mean i'm not. I haven't been willing to preach a lot about hell. I like to describe it a lot, but nevertheless, like that, is a part of salvation, salvation from sin.

00:38:08.470 --> 00:38:13.339
Andy Miller III: some willful sin, some, and then also salvation 2.

00:38:13.390 --> 00:38:35.229
Steve Bussey: What what I say, what I often say is this is that you know Some people say it's just all you know, like the Salvation Army thing, and it's just a metaphor. It isn't in vogue today. It wasn't in vogue in 1,878, or you know I just want to say right, you know. But here's the thing. Is it? I? I think I don't know if I've said this to you before, but, like some people say, well, you know we're just metaphorical soldiers, you know. So I say, we're a metaphorical soldier.

00:38:35.270 --> 00:38:37.449
Steve Bussey: you know, fighting in a medical army.

00:38:37.470 --> 00:38:54.510
Steve Bussey: Engage in a metaphorical Salvation war writing, and get some metaphorical enemy to save people from a metaphorical health. We know that I think people would be glad to see some people be glad to suggest that exactly. And if it's so then what? What's the point? Then? You know what? Let's abandon it all. But hell is real

00:38:54.820 --> 00:39:24.259
Steve Bussey: right, and seeking this involved in this world but that there is, you know, the light of the knowledge of glory of God that can transform people's, lives, break them from the bondage to soon set them free, and allow them to become adopted children, sons, and daughters of of God. Guess what then? We need to be involved in a real Salvation War, and if we're going to be involved in a real salvation more than gets what we better be serious about, and guess what we need to live. Conscious of the reality that we have a time limit. There's a countdown on this generation

00:39:24.270 --> 00:39:36.120
Steve Bussey: and that basically our indifference has eternal consequences. That's what drove Catherine and William Booth. And somehow today we have sidelined that. And as a result of that.

00:39:36.350 --> 00:39:50.580
Steve Bussey: you know, we have a spirit of apathy that that creates an identity, confusion. They values, confusion, and people spend all sorts of time wrestling with the very things that William Catherine Booth said.

00:39:51.160 --> 00:39:56.930
Steve Bussey: is what people who don't care. Really, do you know, if you go back to his who cares vision?

00:39:57.380 --> 00:40:03.630
Steve Bussey: We find ourselves in the clubhouse busy with all sorts of things except what crisis actually called us to do.

00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:21.859
Andy Miller III: I think the idea of the I love the point on the metaphor, and then how that connects, as you say, like to the I identity pieces of why we exist. I think it's good always to drive yourself back to that. But you're right. It's not a metaphor. I I like the language image. It's an image of what we do like we. This is a picture

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:41.109
Andy Miller III: that helps us think about who we are called to be in the world. So we are. We have an image of the but, like I said, it's not a a a metaphor like it. It it the metaphor, be it. It might have been a metaphor, but the metaphor has expressed expresses its own reality living into

00:40:41.120 --> 00:40:51.399
Steve Bussey: okay. Can I? Can I read this this this from John Wesley, where we, you know we we will talk about. Maybe we'll talk about some of the of time, but this lately says this.

00:40:51.720 --> 00:41:02.919
Steve Bussey: he says: for this very reason the adversary, so rage is whenever salvation by faith is declared to the world. For this reason did he stir up earth and hell to destroy those who first preached it.

00:41:02.930 --> 00:41:18.789
Steve Bussey: you know. And then he talks about Luther right and and he says, and for the same reason, knowing that faith alone could overturn the foundations of his kingdom. He did call all his forces, and employ all his art, and lies on calumny to a fright. The black, glorious champion of the Lord of Hopeworks coast, Martin Luther from reviving it.

00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:43.630
Steve Bussey: and then he says, You know that let me just this. He says, thou shall prevail over him and subdue him and overthrow him, and trample him under thy feet. Thou shalt march on under the great Captain of my salvation, conquering, and to conquer until all 9 enemies are destroyed, and until death is swallowed up in victory. That's John Wesley. That's not Williamy Kathryn. Right?

00:41:43.650 --> 00:41:45.080
Andy Miller III: Awesome. Yeah.

00:41:45.210 --> 00:41:55.020
Andy Miller III: that's i'm going to ask me Salvation people that's from salvation by faith. Oh, yeah, there's no the first sermon. So the standard that is an even jokele manifesto. Yeah, sure.

00:41:55.180 --> 00:41:59.620
Andy Miller III: man, Steve is great. We have to hold on to this now.

00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:20.670
Andy Miller III: I'm gonna i'm gonna go through these other one. I can group some of these. Let me read the rest of them, and then we might not get all of them. The these kind of honest, non-negotiable, this mission statement, the dual ministry of personal social action, personal salvation, social action, women and ministry, military metaphor. We talk about that Sacramento position, our Wesley and theology.

00:42:20.720 --> 00:42:37.159
Andy Miller III: That's it. So, though these are the kind of the key points. So we might not get to all those. I think it is culturally assimilated that we're contextualizing the goals. All right, right. That's something we'll get there. Okay. So the the mission statement, I think it's helpful to to keep in mind like this

00:42:37.170 --> 00:42:49.280
Andy Miller III: that some people might see is kind of a clunky language occasionally, but there's something about it that still connects in a beautiful way that to it gets the name of Jesus in there right.

00:42:49.290 --> 00:43:11.320
Andy Miller III: and it has. It has holistic ministry connected to now. I imagine that even if you and I took it took a day, we might be able to come up with a bang up mission statement like, no doubt about it. But I I like this one message based upon the Bible ministry. Look motivated by love of God, mission to preach gospel Jesus Christ, and meet human needs and His name without discrimination. There's something about this is really really clear. And i'm.

00:43:11.330 --> 00:43:27.609
Steve Bussey: if I could. I'm not. I have 0 authority anymore. But I would want to fight for that mission statement. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's what we would call a pincer strategy as well, you know, preaching the gospel and meeting human need in Jesus name. It's that temporal and eternal component.

00:43:27.790 --> 00:43:30.390
Steve Bussey: and you don't have an option to choose one or the other

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.330
Steve Bussey: right. But the Gospel

00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:51.220
Steve Bussey: isn't just about one or the other. We're not Gnostics, and we're not. You know, functional atheists. We are, we're salvation people who wants to see the whole person saved, and so that that is a very Wesley and concept. I would argue as part of the Act of Mercy working in tandem together to accomplish the mission.

00:43:51.480 --> 00:44:01.720
Andy Miller III: Now I I would say, I have noticed that occasionally people some groups. I think I saw this from Australia, and when they move towards a

00:44:02.040 --> 00:44:10.500
Andy Miller III: using the I I don't know what the name of the flag is, but it includes all the colors of the rainbow, including, like the transgender flag, the gay pry, flag, and

00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:25.589
Andy Miller III: other flags that I don't know, and it had that on there, maybe something, too, related to people native folks from that area on that mission statement, though they they added like a few words like preaching Gospel Jesus Christ, I mean human needs

00:44:25.660 --> 00:44:29.679
Andy Miller III: in his name, with love and without discrimination.

00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:45.780
Andy Miller III: I don't know if you've seen that I can. I can share a link to that so like you add the word with love right? And i'm not not a post that at all. But also, I think, mission statement, submission, statement right? It'd be very easy to take out the words

00:44:45.890 --> 00:44:51.129
Andy Miller III: Jesus name you like, Pre with, so I will. I just want to be cautious.

00:44:51.140 --> 00:45:09.460
Steve Bussey: and that's where I do think that we have to teach into the why behind our mission statement. And this is where I would. It would come back to even understanding Leslie and theology, and that is something that is that I think I think of all the things which i'm sure or would hit. I mean, I think you know you know one to 9, you know. Yes, yes, we can work through those.

00:45:09.470 --> 00:45:25.860
Steve Bussey: but I think 8 is actually the P. You know it's it's the it's the most. It's the I would say. You know Number 8. The you know, the distinctive understanding are Wesley and theologies. I think the most critical agenda. Item. Because I don't think we actually understand

00:45:25.870 --> 00:45:31.000
Steve Bussey: what that really means. And let me say this: this: this will extend to the broader audience. Here

00:45:31.070 --> 00:45:46.229
Steve Bussey: is, I don't think, that a lot of Wesley Ands who who are around the day really understand why theology is because just because something comes out of a Wesley and institution now. Maybe not Wesley Biblical. I'm going to clarify that right.

00:45:46.240 --> 00:46:16.219
Steve Bussey: But just because something comes out of a a an academic institution that would reference its origin as being. Wesley does not necessarily mean that it has any connection to the, to the teachings of John Wesley, and I think that that's fiercely problematic, let alone the teachings of of a special way of salvation. And so I do think that we need not just clarity in the savage army, I think, in the broader West

00:46:16.230 --> 00:46:24.970
Steve Bussey: and hold this meaning movement. We need clarity as to what is and what is not Wesley theology.

00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:48.470
Andy Miller III: Yeah, this is helpful. And I could point people back to a document that I was privileged to be a part of that was produced last year on the Faith once for all delivered, and it was a group of 60 Wesleyan scholars who came together, and like work through several theological distinctives and just kind of find with that is. Now here's one thing that's important and like this was the tension within the group, at least in my subgroup

00:46:48.510 --> 00:46:51.759
Andy Miller III: that was led by Ken Collins is that

00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:57.710
Andy Miller III: and I I was a part of the group that talked about soteriology, the doctor on salvation, and

00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:07.859
Andy Miller III: it was a great honor to be there. But one of the tensions we experienced was that we can historically describe what John Wesley thought and did.

00:47:07.870 --> 00:47:34.849
Andy Miller III: But that's not that's I wasn't actually a task like the task was to promote this and define it for today, because there might be ways that John Wesley was wrong, there could have been an emphasis there. So when we talk about Western theology. Yeah, we find this source there that points us back to Scripture that points us to the rich tradition of the Church, and so like that's that's the foundation of it, and it's a part like when we talk about Wesley and theology, there are key emphasis

00:47:34.860 --> 00:47:50.229
Andy Miller III: that have been produced and have been developed through a variety of traditions. So I think there are some key things that we keep in mind with that. What do you feel like, Steve. You know there there are various. I was surprised to some international gatherings. I went to

00:47:50.240 --> 00:48:17.540
Andy Miller III: with this in this Obviously me. Some people say. Well, i'm not a Wesley and salvation it's say I'm, i'm more of a Lutheran Salvationist, right? I mean my Nordic context. Some others are like Well, you. You guys. So in some I won't. Say where this came from and say, Well, you guys in America, you think you're You think the Savage Army is Wesley? And he said, that. But i'm, we're we're more kind of like an Anglican feel to to our feel. So what is it? What is the concern that you have

00:48:17.550 --> 00:48:39.659
Andy Miller III: with not influence what's missed when we don't emphasize the Wesleyan side of the Celebration Army. Well, I I would say, I mean. And again, you know part part. Maybe maybe this is a good point to introduce as well the concept of sword and shield. So yeah, we started a group out as as sort of like a study lab called Sorted Shield, and it's a group that sort of meets together. We need online once a week.

00:48:39.670 --> 00:48:48.929
Steve Bussey: We're actually working. We're using Ken Collins with Jason Vickers, the Sermons of John Wesley, and reading it in tandem to Kathryn and William Boost Writings, Brengel, you know, George and others

00:48:48.940 --> 00:49:15.089
Steve Bussey: and what we're doing is as we're systematically, and I I love as well how they have Collins. Victors have really restructured Wesley sermons in the Via Saltis process, because it gives sort of almost like a legal block a week, which you're building on to see the logic of Wesley right? But as we begin to rec Kathine and William Booth alongside Wesley. We realized that Katherine and William Booth were sort of writing, and the they they they they were speaking in code.

00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:24.889
Steve Bussey: And unless you really understand Wesley, which is like the decoder ring of the boost, you Don't, really understand how biblical and and how like

00:49:25.160 --> 00:49:44.150
Steve Bussey: theologically integrated some of what they were saying is, and so I I think that as salvation as to have a more robust understanding of who we are, we need to understand us within this larger context. Now let me add this as well, that to to your point e it, which the group was talking about last year is that.

00:49:44.160 --> 00:50:02.900
Steve Bussey: you know, in in our contemporary culture, just as if we were, you know, to take the the Gospel to. You know, a different part of the world. We would. And we would need to talk about the contextualization of theology that that that we have to have conversation of. How do we contextualize Wesley and

00:50:02.910 --> 00:50:15.679
Steve Bussey: thinking and theology in a way that it that it is speaking in a relevant way to the to the practical, ethical. You know a. You know, sort of context of this present moment.

00:50:15.770 --> 00:50:34.250
Steve Bussey: but in a way that does not drift or or cultivate syncretism in terms of the Gospel or syncretism, even in terms of what would define the say on a second triage level of of being Wesleyan's. And so I do think that there's a rigorous process of how that translates to culture.

00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:54.249
Steve Bussey: But there is something that is Wesley, and and is not Wesley. And and if we then stray from what that is, if we just sort of say, hey, it's a you know we're going to reduce things down to a lowest common denominator theology of just just love Jesus. And just, you know the rest of the theological. Choose your own adventure

00:50:54.260 --> 00:51:12.269
Steve Bussey: at that point. What we end up doing is, we we actually introduce illogically into not just for orthodoxy, but into work with the proxy. And inevitably we we're like fish out of water that are having an identity crisis. That's we're saying, Why do I have these gills, and why do I have these fins? And why do I have this tail? You know

00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:29.440
Andy Miller III: we're not operating in our natural ecosystem in our natural habitat. You know we the the selfish for me to Wesley and theology that everything actually does make sense. That's right. I love the idea. You said at the very beginning, like a decoder ring like you honestly can't understand

00:51:29.450 --> 00:51:34.419
Andy Miller III: the articles of faith. The writings of the booths, or even our history.

00:51:34.510 --> 00:51:42.769
Andy Miller III: Other writers in our history, without understanding some of the language. West, I, if you read, we actually, even if it's like, picked up in

00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:55.150
Andy Miller III: you, a join the Sword and Shield Group right, and you go through the standard sermons of Wesley. You're gonna have some clarity, and that will provide you insight into probably like the the makeup of of who

00:51:55.160 --> 00:52:04.240
Andy Miller III: the institution. And this will be true for every every group. And I think of my friends who are in the emerging global Methodist Church like this is a key time for you. Think like.

00:52:04.250 --> 00:52:32.169
Andy Miller III: Hmm. If being a Methodist mean that i'm not Baptist, and that I happen to live on this side of town? Or is it is being a Methodist mean that I'm, you know, somewhere between, electrically between Catholic and Baptist, Like like many of my friends are working through this, like as people are, churches are seeking to disaffiliate, or they're voting on. Rather not. They'll separate from the 9 Methodist Church. They're having to define. What does it mean? I got. It's interesting, Like as a Salvationist I would come in

00:52:32.180 --> 00:52:43.660
Andy Miller III: occasionally to Methodist churches to present on the establishment army, and I would I when I first started my ministry I would like as a as a officer. I would come in, and I say, of course, with John Wesley and I realized

00:52:43.680 --> 00:52:50.569
Andy Miller III: maybe they knew a little about John Lesley, but there was a significant lack of knowledge about what was going on so

00:52:50.580 --> 00:53:14.679
Andy Miller III: is not necessarily connected to this theological foundation. I think the that say, when we think about what Evangelicalism is historically and theologically, when we think about what Wesleyanism is when we think about what this average army is. Historically and theologically, those are the reasons that we stick in. And unfortunately, what happens is we will take the cultural expressions of what any of these groups are.

00:53:14.690 --> 00:53:42.640
Andy Miller III: and maybe it's like we dress like this. In that sense, I mean, do right like we, we we we we have music like this. That's what makes us up the brass bands. That's what makes us up. No, no, No, no, no, like. Let's not just let the cultural things, because what happens then? We let the cultural things direct us. We get in the situation where we are now, as it relates to do, doctrine of revelation and creation within sense. Rally, we're willing to say, hey? Well, let's just agree to disagree on these things.

00:53:42.650 --> 00:53:49.499
Steve Bussey: And what what's crazy is that when we actually define ourselves by form, then by essence, we immediately become archaic.

00:53:49.510 --> 00:54:19.259
Steve Bussey: we immediately cease to be relevant. Even if we're relevant for a second, because that's about how long you can be trendy in these days. Right, you know, and I think there's a difference between being trendy and being relevant, relevant is properly communicating what your is from being trendy. But I think I think there's a lot of us that are chasing after trends, or even holding on to an old form, and then and sort of throwing the baby out with the bathrooms we've discussed in the past the problem with that, then, is, you inevitably have no North Star.

00:54:19.270 --> 00:54:39.069
Steve Bussey: You have no guiding compass, I I think, in this day and age, which is, you know. There, there's a term vuka environment. Have you ever heard that turn before? No, i'm sorry the Us. Military introduced it out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the War college in Pennsylvania, they said, Vuka stands for a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous environment.

00:54:39.080 --> 00:54:58.990
Steve Bussey: and I would say that we are in a theologically Vuka environment these days right? An ethically root environment, where there is a lot of ambiguity in terms of you know, there's nobody who sort of saying, hey, You group, you know as a person, I'm going to reinforce that as a result of that often, we can then, just simply out of stress.

00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:18.419
Steve Bussey: just become reactive rather than proactive, and I think, Tim, 10. We talked about this before, where you know. Sometimes we look at the Salvation Army, and we say, Well, you just always talking about what you're against. But what are you actually for? If you don't have a north star, if you don't have a a clarity in terms of identity and purpose.

00:55:18.650 --> 00:55:26.269
Steve Bussey: You're never going to be on the you know. You're never going to be able to say no, actually, with strong conviction and with grace.

00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:33.650
Steve Bussey: right when you're reactive, you know it comes off angry when you're proactive, because you know what you're for.

00:55:33.740 --> 00:55:53.369
Steve Bussey: You can save a person I absolutely love you, you know, and and and I don't care. You know what your background is. If you find yourself in the cleft of the Rock of Jesus, grace by repentance and faith. You can be saved, and you can be a brother or sister who is part of the Kingdom of God

00:55:55.020 --> 00:56:05.010
Steve Bussey: debates over, and so we need to know who we. For if we're going to get any stability in the midst of the volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.

00:56:05.020 --> 00:56:19.709
Andy Miller III: Yeah, what we're for hopefully is about evangelism, right preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. And this is like being being a Salvation people, as we said earlier. But here's the challenges like organizations just so so quickly.

00:56:19.720 --> 00:56:29.679
Andy Miller III: you know. Not quickly, but over time. Get to a place where they move to self preservation that it it gets to be so we so distant from the actual

00:56:29.690 --> 00:56:45.399
Andy Miller III: work. It's like these educational institutions like Stanford. I don't know I haven't seen these numbers myself, but that there's 15,000 administrators and 14,000 students. So like that's a real problem. And if the emphasis isn't on

00:56:45.410 --> 00:57:11.939
Andy Miller III: the local expression of the local fills facilitation of the mission facilitation of the mission. That's where they could see a problem. Okay, i'm going to jump to it to we're we. We we need a whole podcast on this, but they also add in their sack or sacramental position. I think, like historically, they're in really tough shape there, Steve, to be able to include that as something that's absolutely needed. For I look at all these baptisms, communion services, that man They were doing

00:57:12.190 --> 00:57:23.119
Andy Miller III: great work. Why, why would we leave this great thing. So I I I really struggle with that. I think that if in that, and having now attended some other churches, man.

00:57:23.150 --> 00:57:50.959
Andy Miller III: it is, we are the the tradition of savage army is missing out on a real blessing to be able to come face to face with the body and blood of Jesus on a regular basis in a historically consistent way that's consistent with Scripture and the entirety of the Christian tradition. Except for this one little sliver known as the savage army that likes this uniqueness. Let me take this, and I know you're going to mall me because of this. But when I read John Wesley's the means of grace, and then do constant communion.

00:57:51.010 --> 00:57:52.200
Andy Miller III: Oh, no, yeah.

00:57:52.210 --> 00:58:12.160
Steve Bussey: I I I think that that that we have to differentiate the means from you know the the the heart of what that is. There is the form which is necessary, right, you know. But I think again that there can be multiple modalities by which we we we practice sacramental living.

00:58:12.170 --> 00:58:30.290
Steve Bussey: You know I don't want to get into a whole debate on You can still have Sacramento living, and do this and perform the sacrament. But but but yeah, yeah, and and and the the bottom line is 1,883 we've discussed. I we've discussed this offline stuff like this before, but there's room to debate it, you know, and and I think

00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:32.729
Steve Bussey: again, you know to me

00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:36.129
Steve Bussey: what I want to get right first

00:58:36.510 --> 00:58:40.839
Steve Bussey: is that we are remembering Christ, and that we are publicly declaring Christ.

00:58:40.910 --> 00:59:00.470
Steve Bussey: You know right now, if if we are, and not just remembering what Christ did. But I think also, Wesley says, in the duty of constant community, close to constant community, and and the means of race is that we Don't. Just remember back to what Christ did, but that we are testifying to the work that he is presently doing

00:59:00.550 --> 00:59:01.479
Steve Bussey: right.

00:59:01.900 --> 00:59:05.439
Steve Bussey: If if we don't, get that right.

00:59:05.700 --> 00:59:07.719
Steve Bussey: and we introduce a form.

00:59:08.290 --> 00:59:21.450
Steve Bussey: You know it's just it has to function like it. Yeah, it has to function. The the experience of the encounter of heart. Religion is what we have got. I think that is the issue which we got to get right first.

00:59:21.460 --> 00:59:36.370
Steve Bussey: you know, so you know it can help you if that some forms can escort you into that reality. Really, I feel like they they're there like there's there's just a wisdom of the universal Church that that that has been expressed with that for

00:59:36.680 --> 00:59:39.760
Andy Miller III: centuries. And I think there's something to this like that.

00:59:39.810 --> 00:59:55.029
Andy Miller III: I don't. I don't particularly love it. That the classic definition of the Church is where the word is preaching. The sacraments are duly administered or or disciplined, is what upheld like like. I I always chided against that, because I didn't like not being being called a church, but at the same time, like, I think

00:59:55.540 --> 01:00:14.899
Andy Miller III: well, maybe there's some reasons that this is put in place, and there are like what I think for those reasons. Oh, I would love to tell you that's a whole other podcast. We may have a podcast us on this topic, I I think, like the same. What we, by defining ourselves by what we don't

01:00:14.910 --> 01:00:15.910
Andy Miller III: do.

01:00:16.070 --> 01:00:28.860
Andy Miller III: I think, is very problematic, and I don't think we you and I have already spent 45 min talking about distinctives, and we've never brought this up. If we think, as some have said, this is our our birth right

01:00:28.870 --> 01:00:43.459
Andy Miller III: that it? Of course it wasn't a part of our birth. First of all. No, not not not only that, but I think, my my, my bigger concern. Steve, is not just the connection to the Universal Church, though that's important.

01:00:43.470 --> 01:01:00.650
Andy Miller III: This sets us up for a poor exegettical work like our poor interpretation of Scripture. And I I think, yeah, you can kind of find a way just barely to redefine a few terms to make it work, but like what this leads to is like

01:01:02.300 --> 01:01:30.970
Steve Bussey: this: this: this is kind of a a liberal hermeneutic that we use. I would, I would argue, though, that the form which we practice in most churches today is more based upon a con recontextualized Roman expression of sacrament than a Hebraic expression of sacrament. I mean. Again, you know we're not. You know, when we talk about what is it that we're supposed to do? Exactly what do we mean? Because already, If there's a contextualization of the mean

01:01:30.980 --> 01:01:32.189
Steve Bussey: right, right.

01:01:32.390 --> 01:01:47.629
Steve Bussey: then then W. What does it mean to properly exege what that means? Because if you're saying we need to be exogenically accurate. Then you'd better be practicing. I'll talk about the form, but it's certainly, Steve, like the big thing is, do it? It? Doesn't? Say, actually like.

01:01:47.740 --> 01:02:00.299
Steve Bussey: Okay, we might. We might struggle with how to do it. But maybe we just the communion that's part of it. But there is something to the actual physical form, the physical taking in

01:02:00.310 --> 01:02:07.960
Andy Miller III: the the substance of the substance, like i'm good with i'm good with any I I've only done the wine once as a as a good Salvationist like I've

01:02:08.020 --> 01:02:28.330
Steve Bussey: I only one time if I had alcohol, and that was in a Anglican church when I I had a Lutheran church, and I and I I destroyed that whole kind of sacramental moment because I was coughing on the floor. Oh, bless you, I was able to get mine down. I don't know. There we go.

01:02:28.340 --> 01:02:58.160
Andy Miller III: I I I I know you and I are going to solve today, and and people have asked us to do a whole podcast on this, and we're running out of time here. So essentially, I would say, don't make this a part unless it's still me. It's part of the identity piece. I think the biggest thing that's going to need, and let's just pivot now like talking about the High Council like the High Council as a group of people who are coming together to elect the general who will uphold the vision, theology, and direction of the international movement. If that's the case like that person's going to like the biggest question they have to answer

01:02:58.170 --> 01:03:18.450
Andy Miller III: is related to human sexuality and Biblical authority. And one thing that's missing from the horrible statement is anything about Scripture now? It's assumed or implied in the Mission statements. It's zoomed and implied in the fact. We're savvy sharing people, but I think that has to be at the forefront of probably, and i'd encourage those. Maybe it'll be some. Listen. This will be a part of that council

01:03:18.460 --> 01:03:23.970
Andy Miller III: that to ensure those questions are asked, there needs to be clear and look. If if the High Council votes to say, guess what

01:03:24.580 --> 01:03:35.739
Andy Miller III: we don't. We don't think this is important to let somebody who's going to hold a a clear vision going forward, and we think the current general has done a pretty good job with that. If they're not going to do that, then

01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:38.620
Steve Bussey: they'll give some of us an opportunity to leave.

01:03:38.690 --> 01:03:45.000
Steve Bussey: I I I would say this I I do believe, and I've said this openly to several people. I do believe that this is probably

01:03:45.550 --> 01:03:46.350
Steve Bussey: 3

01:03:46.470 --> 01:03:58.540
Steve Bussey: most important High Council in the history of the Salvation Army, more so than 1,929 more so than at any other point, because I do believe we are at a strategic inflection point

01:03:58.680 --> 01:04:02.529
Steve Bussey: A. And that the person who's appointed to this.

01:04:02.630 --> 01:04:05.489
that that

01:04:06.220 --> 01:04:22.630
Steve Bussey: the we cannot be ambiguous, on on what is non-negotiable? You know and and that's where I would agree with you that an emphasis upon you know Scripture, what do we mean by that? Along with that we need people.

01:04:22.640 --> 01:04:48.890
Steve Bussey: you know again going back to what we were discussing about who William Booth was, was, a person who embodied the spirit of self-acism, who was living out the Scriptural way of salvation that was manifesting those consistent qualities that we saw in Wesley and Whitfield and Luther and Katherine, William Booth, and others who have been part of that being on the track of the old apostles. We need to see that.

01:04:48.910 --> 01:05:11.750
Steve Bussey: first and foremost, if that is not the prime evaluative test of who is going to be a leave. Then we're in trouble. Look at we need. We do need things like innovation. We do need things like reimagining who we are, we need, you know, to to wrestle through sort of a lot of sort of, you know, complex issues and things like that. We're entering into a digital age, and there's all sorts of things that maybe we need to wrestle through

01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.880
Steve Bussey: political elements and stuff like this.

01:05:14.740 --> 01:05:17.169
Steve Bussey: Yes, those competencies are important.

01:05:17.550 --> 01:05:21.059
Steve Bussey: But if the person has not mastered

01:05:21.100 --> 01:05:22.339
Steve Bussey: first things.

01:05:23.660 --> 01:05:24.950
Steve Bussey: We're we're in serious trouble.

01:05:25.710 --> 01:05:37.939
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I mean, this is a time, of course, for us to really pray for that leadership change, but also at the same time, there's opportunity to encourage there to encourage your your leaders.

01:05:37.950 --> 01:05:53.909
Andy Miller III: particularly those who will participate in that High Council this coming summer. I think I, unless something happens, it's gonna happen to really get it and and encourage people to provide clarity to the organization. Now, this is where it's not a pure democracy. It'd be great if there were

01:05:54.140 --> 01:06:22.490
Andy Miller III: you and I might disagree a little bit on this, like I don't. I'm not sure the autocratic system is entirely necessary. I don't not sure what we have right now is it effective, either? But, like I would love for there to be more democratic impulses within the organization as a whole, and it's there. The High Council is a modified semi auto cracks, but everybody is picked by the you know previous sets of leaders, so it would be great if people could just try to influence those people

01:06:22.640 --> 01:06:46.249
Andy Miller III: to ensure the mission is upheld. So pray for them. But also they say, hey, here's a few questions you could you could ask? That might not be a bad thing to propose.

01:06:46.260 --> 01:06:49.270
Steve Bussey: you know, because each tertiary leader will be

01:06:49.280 --> 01:07:17.659
Steve Bussey: the representative of their territory. And so, you know, you can. First of all, we need to pray for a territorial leaders around the world that they, as they prayerfully consider, You know who's going to be the next person to to step into that critical role in the selfish army. But you can write your Tc. And say, i'm praying for you, and you know i'm praying that these will be essential things that are considered in the process. So I do think that that can take place for sure.

01:07:17.670 --> 01:07:33.159
Andy Miller III: If you'd like any suggestions for questions, i'll be glad to give them to you. There might be a letter coming from me. I don't know. I will see see what happens. That's great. Well, Steve, it like. Tell us a little bit. Where can people find sword and shield.

01:07:33.170 --> 01:07:40.109
Steve Bussey: So if you, it's on it's on Facebook. But what we're what we've done is we just because it it's not sort of

01:07:40.590 --> 01:08:10.519
Steve Bussey: it's. It is really sort of a laboratory group, if they, you know there's nothing controversial in there. We are literally studying Leslie in the boots, you know. But if you want to send me or my wife, Sharon, Steven, Bossy, or Sher, and busy a message on Facebook and say, hey, can you send me an invitation to sword and shield, and we'll send that out to you. And you mean you can go, and anything which is there as well like we develop resources, infographics on the sermons of Wesley and the Boost, and others, and Scripture passages, and quotes and stuff like that

01:08:10.530 --> 01:08:27.110
Steve Bussey: that any of that stuff you can take, and you can sort of share on your social media if you want to. That's what you could use it in a in a class meeting or in a in a Bible study, or a small group, or anything like that. So we just provide a resource that can help the broader, broader community.

01:08:27.149 --> 01:08:40.270
Steve Bussey: Yeah, and it's not. It's not just for those in the savage army, too. Right? I mean you. You'd be able to have other folks come in because all these resources are things that are from this broader tradition.

01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:59.780
Steve Bussey: Yeah, Steve. Thanks so much for coming on, all right. I did. I set us up at some point here for at least 2 more podcasts, probably this year. But we'll we'll figure out we'll. We'll have to do the full out sacramental thing. Wait we need to come up with some guidelines, too, so we stay on track. But it's it's good conversation, and I I always enjoy it so thanks so much for coming along, Steve.

01:08:59.950 --> 01:09:01.999
Steve Bussey: All right. Thanks flesh it, Andy.

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