Andy Miller III
Cover Image for Orthodoxy in the Church of the Nazarene with Jared Henry

Orthodoxy in the Church of the Nazarene with Jared Henry

April 27, 2023

Jared Henry is a pastor with the Church of the Nazarene and the president of the Holiness Partnership. He and I talk about the events in his life that led to this group seeking to bring theological renewal to the Church of the Nazarene.

Youtube -

Audio -

Apple -

Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page:

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors:

Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at or touch base directly with Keith at


Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country.

Thanks too to Phil Laeger for my podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at


I'm: so glad you all are here. This is going to be a really interesting podcast. I have my friend, Reverend Jared Henry on now. Jared and I haven't actually met in person. But we've had a couple of Zoom Meetings. Jared: Welcome to Podcast.

00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:47.460
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I know, Jerry. Just just tell us like a a a really quick thing about who who you are, what church you're serving. And that's for. I think we're gonna talk about the Holiness partnership. But just tell us a little about who Jared is.

00:00:47.980 --> 00:01:07.400
Jared K Henry: So i'm I pastor Presently I faster in Mackey, Indiana, which you probably not heard of Mackey, because populations about 135

00:01:07.520 --> 00:01:23.110
Jared K Henry: as the lead pastor and I moved here from Kentucky. I I grew up in Kentucky, but pastor there, about 8 and a half years in Lexington and other church before that, so served in the Church of the Nazarene all my life

00:01:23.180 --> 00:01:32.790
Jared K Henry: in terms of pastoral ministry. I've preached t0 0ther churches, and then revivals and camping and stuff like that, but an ordained Nazare minister

00:01:33.130 --> 00:01:35.750
Andy Miller III: Gotcha, and and tell us about your family.

00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.000
Jared K Henry: So I've been married for over 20 years now.

00:01:39.010 --> 00:01:49.810
Jared K Henry: So.

00:01:49.940 --> 00:02:12.610
Andy Miller III: Gotcha.

00:02:12.620 --> 00:02:15.990
Jared K Henry: we we. We cross pad before we actually cross pads.

00:02:16.440 --> 00:02:33.620
Andy Miller III: That's right. Well, Jerry, one of the interesting things like I've I've been really encouraged by you in the work that you're doing. Not just like what what you're doing in Mackey, and I was. I was born in Indiana. I lived in Rushville, Bloomington, and Indianapolis, so i'm a

00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:41.260
Andy Miller III: it's. But nevertheless, like we have these various things in common. We we've served in churches in the Wesley and Holiness tradition.

00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:55.890
Andy Miller III: but you have done something distinct outside of that that service, and that you have some initiated, some work that well, actually God opened up doors, I should say, to lead you to initiate some work at

00:02:56.190 --> 00:03:25.520
Andy Miller III: calling your denomination to back to its roots to historic Christian orthodoxy. And so i'm really interested to hear some of that story I i'm really thankful for your regular ministry, and just proclaiming the Gospel and the the opportunity of people have to experience sanctifying grace in this life. But i'm.

00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:33.140
Andy Miller III: Of the of a group called the Holiness Partnership, but that there's a lot that came before that. So tell us about a little bit about that history.

00:03:33.330 --> 00:03:59.410
Jared K Henry: Yeah. So i'll just tell you first off of it. I am primarily feel called to be a pastor. So that's

00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:10.760
Jared K Henry: about Nazaren Theological Seminary, and it was the reason why I cannot can no longer support the Seminary, the Nazarene Seminary, Kansas City, and

00:04:10.760 --> 00:04:26.890
I. I really expected there to be a lot of blowback, a negative feedback from that from the denomination, and at a, and kind of at at large among my peers and pastor friends. And when I, when I put that out

00:04:26.970 --> 00:04:29.720
I actually got just the opposite.

00:04:29.790 --> 00:04:42.980
Jared K Henry: So

00:04:42.990 --> 00:05:01.620
Jared K Henry: Ds is pastors, late people, all kinds of folks, and and it was positive, saying, Thank you for articulating something that's been on our heart something that is of a concern to us, and something that we've been kind of watching, but not really sure what to do. And so

00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:17.200
Jared K Henry: for for 3 0r 4 days. There was just so much. My phone just blew up with phone calls, test my email. It was everything. You know that I had about 10,000 views on that article that just the first month or so, and it just really was

00:05:17.200 --> 00:05:29.390
Jared K Henry: way more than I expected. And so, after about 2 0r 3 days I actually had to turn my phone off, Get ready for Sunday and worship

00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:39.380
Jared K Henry: I I really spend time in Pr: i'm not a guy likes to cry over, spilled me. I'm the guy saying, Where's the where's the mop? Let's let's clean it up. Let's not just point at it and

00:05:39.580 --> 00:05:40.820
Jared K Henry: complain about it.

00:05:40.840 --> 00:05:52.860
Jared K Henry: And so I really went to the Lord and said, You know God, what's heavy on me. Is that okay? You know we we rock the boat here. But what what do I do? What? What course of action?

00:05:52.990 --> 00:05:58.820
Jared K Henry: And so I called a pastor friend up and said, hey, I feel led to start something

00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:10.700
Jared K Henry: to to be a positive influence on our denomination, to to do something good with, with a little bit of this momentum that was kind of negative starting out.

00:06:10.700 --> 00:06:40.660
Andy Miller III: And so

00:06:40.660 --> 00:07:00.020
Jared K Henry: the United Methodist Church and the emerged the Global Methodist Church. So I've tried to highlight people who are working in similar ways. But could you summarize some of the concerns that were in that touchstone moment of the and is it the article you're talking? It? Was it on a blog that you put together right. This is

00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:17.720
Jared K Henry: so we got the holy is is our is the is the Holy partnerships website. So you find out about that there. But my article is not on that website. It's actually on my blog. So you'll have to Google that well, I can no longer support the but it was in essence it was over the issue of sexuality

00:07:24.910 --> 00:07:35.870
Jared K Henry: from specifically the President, but a few other folks that are faculty there about, you know not whether they agreed with the current statement, or would abide by that statement.

00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:41.620
Jared K Henry: It wasn't a question of whether they'd abide by it or not. But the question had to do with with with.

00:07:41.900 --> 00:07:49.470
Jared K Henry: You know I'm not asking whether you adhere to a statement in our manual? I'm asking, do you believe that those who practice homosexuality.

00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:52.070
I can inherit the kingdom of God.

00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:30.690
Jared K Henry: or a pro affirming which they would affirm like you. Can they believe in gay marriage, for example, or

00:08:30.690 --> 00:08:44.120
Jared K Henry: and that became kind of the tender of of of of a majority of their speakers, but als0 0r a lot of their speakers, I should say, but also there were some folks. There was some staffing issue. They had folks on staff who had been

00:08:44.130 --> 00:08:59.430
Jared K Henry: publicly had said, this is where we stand. This is what we're for. And so, you know, just questioning. You know. How did they get hired when this is their stance? And it's? It's obviously contradictory to where we stand as the

00:08:59.430 --> 00:09:11.030
Jared K Henry: so

00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:16.380
Jared K Henry: then it ought to be in as a ring, you know.

00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:27.820
Andy Miller III: I mean that's a really clear statement, and I think that. That's what the that's what the challenges I mean in even as we're recording this, the the Church of England is working through their challenges where they're saying, Well, we can.

00:09:27.820 --> 00:09:44.200
Jared K Henry: and we can bless same-sex marriages. But we won't. We won't actually perform the marriage ceremony. But

00:09:44.200 --> 00:10:04.440
Andy Miller III: but if the if the group has made a decision, and has consistently affirmed something that has been affirmed throughout the centuries of the Christian tradition. If you also start to move away from that, you in my view, you know, Jared, You tell me where, if you think i'm up you're the ones who have moved You're the ones who have changed.

00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:27.650
Andy Miller III: and somebody else is saying something completely different from an organization and an institution that you support. So I tell me how that works in as Ring church, so you at your church would actually pay

00:10:27.710 --> 00:10:47.320
Jared K Henry: to support the Nazarene theological seminar? Or would your, or even part of your ministerial allowance go there? I mean, how does that work?

00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:57.590
Jared K Henry: So we're going to give this to the seminary, but we also pay what's called the World Evangelism Fund, and there's there's like a very my new shi, my new she a portion of that that goes to the seminary

00:10:57.590 --> 00:11:12.950
Jared K Henry: as well, so that's not necessarily a voluntary component, but and we still pay our world values and fund, because that's also what supports the missionaries it the the infrastructure of the denomination, all that kind of thing. So we don't, we don't withhold that, but we do withhold anything free will.

00:11:13.020 --> 00:11:29.090
Jared K Henry: We don't voluntarily give, and we've kind of a lot of that. Those funds elsewhere t0 0ther educational institutions that we can support. So that's that's kind of the way we did that. But I think you're right. It's it's the question is, if if

00:11:29.230 --> 00:11:36.020
Jared K Henry: is the responsibility of the Nazarene Theological Seminary, just like a Nazarene Bible College or a Nazarene University.

00:11:36.040 --> 00:11:46.300
Jared K Henry: what is their responsibility? And having our name on on on over the door, you know. And and is it specific at the seminary to raise up Nazarene

00:11:46.410 --> 00:12:00.790
Jared K Henry: pastors, ministers, we will our missionaries, or evangelists, or whatever they are that will minister, and our be able to articulate our doctrine, what we believe and those kind of things. And then the other thing that you mentioned was

00:12:00.820 --> 00:12:12.350
Jared K Henry: something that kind of Muddies the water. And all this is that we're there's a lot of folks trying to take human sexuality and compare it to some things that in the Church of the measuring and even in holiness traditions

00:12:12.350 --> 00:12:24.520
Jared K Henry: there we've had high standards about some things and some things. We've changed over time, like, you know, there was a time where you could not go to the movies. You couldn't go to the circus. You couldn't do some kind of things, and so they want to conflate

00:12:24.630 --> 00:12:26.080
Jared K Henry: sexuality

00:12:26.110 --> 00:12:27.990
Jared K Henry: with the circus.

00:12:28.300 --> 00:12:44.810
Jared K Henry: And that's that's such a terrible misunderstanding of Scripture where you're taking issues where in previous generations we have tried to say, what does it look like to live a holy life in the culture that we live in? What does it mean to be holy.

00:12:44.950 --> 00:12:46.660
Jared K Henry: and

00:12:46.790 --> 00:12:50.670
Jared K Henry: how that's lived out culturally versus

00:12:50.900 --> 00:13:08.860
Jared K Henry: the standard of sexuality that goes that transcends culture. This is not something bound to culture, but transcends culture.

00:13:09.310 --> 00:13:27.790
Andy Miller III: Yeah. And there there's of course it's also like a crystallological claim, too. Like rather not. Jesus has a full knowledge like a one of the claims that often comes from the Pro LGBT side is that Jesus just didn't know, like he didn't have full knowledge like that's a regular like.

00:13:27.830 --> 00:13:36.120
Andy Miller III: and and that's what's been interesting to me is the way that scholars on who would let represent liberal position on human sexuality

00:13:36.170 --> 00:13:38.520
just give the ground

00:13:38.790 --> 00:13:51.710
Andy Miller III: often about Jesus and sexuality, as if it's like already taken into this is term. The then discern that Jesus didn't understand. Even Evangelicals might say he didn't have a full knowledge. Well, what is that saying about the nature

00:13:51.710 --> 00:14:06.510
Andy Miller III: of Jesus is being fully gotten fully? Man like this changes the nature of Christology, and the same thing is this obviously the sociological claim which you made. And I just think, Jared, you and I have only been around each other a little bit. But I think you have a gift of clarity.

00:14:06.530 --> 00:14:19.440
Andy Miller III: and being able to point that you you you brought down t0 0ne question, and I don't know if that's exactly what you phrase to the President of that institution. But just said, Does somebody who practices

00:14:20.010 --> 00:14:21.350
Andy Miller III: homosexuality?

00:14:21.930 --> 00:14:28.340
Andy Miller III: Will they inherit the King of God? I mean, this is like connected to Biblical call. I mean the exact exactly what you said.

00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:37.590
Jared K Henry: Yeah, I mean, I've asked that question Not no, not to many people, because this is, it's not a it's not like I'm trying to. It's not a Gotcha question. It's a simple

00:14:38.060 --> 00:14:41.560
Jared K Henry: a question that Scripture is already answered for us.

00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:46.850
Jared K Henry: So it's not even I'm, not really looking for your opinion. But whether you you would affirm

00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:54.050
Jared K Henry: Scripture, and I think you know, to carry the conversation a little farther, that ultimately that that's kind of the bedrock of this discussion.

00:14:57.170 --> 00:15:07.520
Jared K Henry: and do the work of of understanding the Word of God that do we believe that God's word reveals to us everything that we need to know for salvation.

00:15:07.550 --> 00:15:10.770
Jared K Henry: And so that's I think that's another issue

00:15:10.780 --> 00:15:32.280
Jared K Henry: that that plays into this that we show with, because again it, you know, I've heard people say, Well, do you wear a shirt? That's got 2 different kinds of material on it, and it's like well.

00:15:32.280 --> 00:15:44.710
Jared K Henry: or that I don't have a little curls on my forehead or something, you know. So

00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:54.120
Andy Miller III: yeah, just understanding the nature of the old new confidence, and not so like these. These. These these questions have been answered very

00:15:54.120 --> 00:16:07.420
Andy Miller III: right. I mean this on on a multiple occasions, and i'm not I. I. I am disappointed that denominational leaders and I look to to my own, you know, often are just taken in by these

00:16:07.420 --> 00:16:23.020
Andy Miller III: arguments that have already been answered. Now, so this. This is part of what you raise, so you that article that you had that blog that you had, that you know when it Holiness Viral will say, you know, like maybe maybe they get up to millions of views, but 10,000

00:16:23.020 --> 00:16:39.770
Andy Miller III: 10,000 clicks, or whatever that's significant yet, and and it's very targeted towards your denomination. So likely, you know, 10,000 people within your denomination. Seeing this within within the first month, you said so.

00:16:39.770 --> 00:16:51.510
Jared K Henry: the Holiness partnership. So let's get to that place like what happened there.

00:16:51.600 --> 00:17:08.400
Jared K Henry: And from that time of prayer I called up a pastor friend and said, hey, brother, let's let's do something. Let's make a positive impact in our denomination. And and he said to me, Well, i'm a pastor. I don't have time to do that.

00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:21.960
Jared K Henry: Somebody's got to do it. So it was a bit discouraging, but about a week later he he calls me back and says, hey, man, god's really been speaking to me. I think you're right. What do we need to do? And so I said, let's let's get together. Let's get 12

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:23.240
Jared K Henry: pastors

00:17:23.260 --> 00:17:33.240
Jared K Henry: across our denomination. We weren't looking for District superintendent, general superintendent. We're we're not looking. We're just looking for pastors that have been faithful and fruitful.

00:17:33.350 --> 00:17:45.320
Jared K Henry: and let's gather together and have a a time of prayer. So we gathered together a couple of years ago. Now. So it was. It was kind of still Covid stuff was going on, but we gathered in person.

00:17:45.320 --> 00:17:58.920
Jared K Henry: and I actually didn't get a go, because I was diagnosed with cancer and had surgery all day that we were supposed to meet.

00:17:59.300 --> 00:18:08.730
Jared K Henry: So they gathered, and I guess we it's like any committee the me when you. If you don't show up, you get drafted, and I that's where I became the President.

00:18:08.740 --> 00:18:20.880
Jared K Henry: the the the vision kind of begin to come together to be like we're not going to be just a bunch of cranky people who are upset about everything. If there's a problem.

00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:40.740
Jared K Henry: what's what's the root of that problem? And so we want? We really believe that it was coming back to the message of full salvation. Scriptural holiness is the key for people not just to understand it as a doctrine, but also as an experience in their life, and and to begin to live that out again. In that, with the fullness of the Holy Spirit

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:56.640
Jared K Henry: our minds would change, hearts, will change a desires, change everything changes and gets oriented around Christ rather than the things of the flesh and the things of the culture. And so that's what we set out to do so. We had. Our first gathering was

00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:13.840
Jared K Henry: that was in a fall, and then the the first gathering was in April of the next year in Kokomo, Indiana, and we we had to kind of again. Covid was still going on, so all the all the stuff they had to do with that, so we had to kind of limit how many people could be there, and that kind of a thing. But

00:19:13.840 --> 00:19:32.890
Jared K Henry: and then we also didn't want to go and just debate all these issues with everybody. They might have been just trying to stir stuff up. We were like, Look, we believe, in the authority of Scripture. So that's where we're going to start. And then from there we're gonna start promoting what we believe is the church of the Naz room. So we we are.

00:19:32.890 --> 00:19:52.650
Jared K Henry: We believe in, promote the articles of faith that we have in the Church of the Nazarene, the the code of Christian conduct, the our statement on human sexuality. We, we we affirm all those kinds of things, and and want to see that propagated and people to understand what we believe. It's a beautiful thing, and what we have found is

00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:58.130
Jared K Henry: that while this minority pushing an agenda, it's a culturally-driven agenda.

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:17.140
Jared K Henry: It it's a minority. There are a lot of pastors a lot of folks now. Some some are still kind of scared of what repercussions, but more and more people rising to the occasion and saying, Thank you. We want to be a part of this movement. We believe this is going to be life and vitality for our for our church.

00:20:17.290 --> 00:20:33.790
Andy Miller III: Oh, I love it! This is, I mean, it's such an amazing thing how God led you at that moment to write that article and then get this group together. It reminds me of what happening, and I method church. I don't know how long ago it was 40 0r 50 years ago. Maybe you've heard this story, Charles Kaiser, I think was his name.

00:20:33.790 --> 00:20:45.980
Andy Miller III: He he wrote an article about, and I think he he was in an area that he felt a little alone, and he wrote an article with concerns about the orthodoxy in the nomination Sunday school resources.

00:20:46.170 --> 00:21:04.060
Andy Miller III: And then that article, this very similar thing happened, and then that led to the good news movement, the good news organization which became the good news for United Methodists, and that's a magazine that's been passed down now through generations, and was just leading people back to the orthodox message, and then they became

00:21:04.330 --> 00:21:30.090
Andy Miller III: somewhat political organization within the nomination. As you know, like part of what happens is the b bureaucratic functions, and I don't say that as a bad word, right bureaucratic functions can be manipulated, and that's what had happened. And so part of the things that have led to the what's going happen in the with the emergence of the goal. Methodist Church was the political, I would say, maneuvering, but just like

00:21:30.290 --> 00:21:35.220
Andy Miller III: awareness of what's happening. How is that it? You know your name isn't like

00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:52.980
Andy Miller III: the Holiness partnership for the Nazarene Church, but it's at this point fairly focus on the Nazarene Church. What things are you doing in presenting this positive message? What things are you doing to an ensure like the Nazarene Church is holding to what it has historically believed.

00:21:53.410 --> 00:22:12.120
Jared K Henry: So. Yeah. So we've kind of struggled with how broad to make the homeless partnership because we we met in Cocom0 0r Coca-cola. Then we were in Kansas City, which is kind of like the where the global ministry center is so kind of the of the Church of the Nazarene, and and that kind of a thing. But

00:22:12.120 --> 00:22:27.400
Jared K Henry: what in Kansas City we had, you know, a Methodist. We had Salvation Army. We had free Methodists. We had Protestant Methodists. We had a Free Methodist. We had a lot of other groups there as well. Now it was a majority where Nazaren Westlins were there.

00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:37.810
Jared K Henry: Well, majority were Nazare. So I think I think everybody within the whole, this movement can resonate with the message. So we're not just Nazarene.

00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:54.300
Jared K Henry: Only kind of a thing. However, the hearts of our board is for our our denomination. So I think that, promoting the message of holiness, we are seeing folks that are like coming to Christ even in our gatherings. We've seen pastors who were

00:22:54.300 --> 00:23:11.240
Jared K Henry: sanctified at the gatherings, and which is encouraging. It's discouraging like. Well, I thought you had to be sanctified to become ordained in the Church of Nazare. But they're receiving that blessing. And so that's a great thing. And I think but just just giving a voice

00:23:11.320 --> 00:23:14.120
Jared K Henry: or a a rally point

00:23:14.300 --> 00:23:19.800
Jared K Henry: for the many pastors out there who, like you mentioned. feel isolated.

00:23:19.860 --> 00:23:39.200
Jared K Henry: but sometimes, and they're beginning to realize. Wait, i'm not the minority. I'm not. There's more that are with us than are with them in in reality. And so it's just a matter of of dealing with some of these issues through institutionally or denominationally. However, you want to

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:51.580
Jared K Henry: look at it in that regard, I think, is is what what really it comes down to now you mentioned the good news. The United

00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:56.920
Jared K Henry: is like they were they in some ways, I think there was a good thing, but they fail.

00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:12.030
Jared K Henry: The denomination

00:24:12.070 --> 00:24:24.760
Jared K Henry: has has really been successful in turning the tide of these things.

00:24:24.770 --> 00:24:30.880
Jared K Henry: I came to Christ in in the church of the manager, and so I love it, and maybe i'm.

00:24:31.150 --> 00:24:42.230
Jared K Henry: Most people would say this way. Maybe i'm overly optimistic. But I I feel like I have faith that our denomination is maybe small enough and healthy enough

00:24:42.400 --> 00:25:00.580
Jared K Henry: that we're not where some of these other denominations were with, with just being so large or and or they they just gone too far. And so

00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:18.140
Jared K Henry: And so that's how you have the formation of the global Methods Church. So

00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:24.380
Jared K Henry: you know, what does that look like? I'm: not exactly sure but it's got to be different than what people have done before.

00:25:25.030 --> 00:25:31.540
Oh, Jared, this is so interesting, so i'm glad that you said that, and it's helpful to think of that. And I think

00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:39.680
Andy Miller III: there are likely things a part of the good news movement, the confessing movement, and then it the emergence of the Western Covenant Association

00:25:39.680 --> 00:26:00.630
Andy Miller III: that they just they had to have some response. They had to have a place to go. So there's a way that the global that this church is at victory, and in the sense that and I in some I've had some man. I've had to say how we should use that language right like.

00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:10.070
Andy Miller III: let lack the precision. Still, like what happens? There is like the kind of the the church that's holding to the orthodox tradition.

00:26:10.310 --> 00:26:19.280
Andy Miller III: and what what the movement has to believed in it, the authority of Scripture that has persisted. So there is a way that it's not complete failure. But you are

00:26:19.550 --> 00:26:33.230
Andy Miller III: like. What what would you say to this to some of the folks who and there's a group that's up not just a a a opposition against you, but a a group that has formed that is trying to move the Nazarene Church

00:26:33.230 --> 00:26:41.050
toward a more Pro LGBT stance in the sense of trying to get them to change their the policies and and the doctrine.

00:26:41.110 --> 00:26:42.800
Andy Miller III: So I mean, do you

00:26:42.850 --> 00:26:47.690
Andy Miller III: like, do you think that that those groups can come back t0 0rthodoxy.

00:26:47.910 --> 00:26:55.600
Andy Miller III: or do you just want them to realize that they've moved on? I mean, what? Cause if that's what's gonna happen? There's gonna be no

00:26:55.600 --> 00:27:10.950
Jared K Henry: besides. So like, I would say, you know, maybe this is I. I think there's you know, the Church Catholic, and there's the church several, which is

00:27:11.150 --> 00:27:19.600
Jared K Henry: the same things all right now. The Church Catholic. Obviously there's orthodoxy within that. I think this human sexuality issue is outside of orthodoxy.

00:27:19.780 --> 00:27:32.330
Jared K Henry: you know. So I think that you know. That's the They're false teachers. They're not just. It's like the difference between Armenianism and the reformed movement. It's.

00:27:32.370 --> 00:27:48.940
Jared K Henry: But this is outside of orthodoxy. This is denial of human sexuality defined by Scripture. And so I I think that to fill that out there, but denominations come together because we believe the same things, and so so it's like. Well, if you

00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:54.550
Jared K Henry: you know for us as Nazarene. So if you don't, if you if you don't, if you're not Armenian.

00:27:54.790 --> 00:28:06.360
Jared K Henry: then maybe you need to join a reformed group. You need to join a Calvinous group. I'm not saying that with a mean spirit i'm just saying that for the sake of unity. You need to probably better identify with

00:28:06.360 --> 00:28:20.220
Jared K Henry: that, because your theology dictates form, it dictates methodology. It dictates a lot of things, and so join folks who are have have a similar way of thinking about that rather than try to change where you're at.

00:28:27.270 --> 00:28:35.160
Jared K Henry: And so I think that yeah, I think if if they're going to be persistent, if we've got folks who are who are dogmatically

00:28:35.170 --> 00:28:45.530
Jared K Henry: insistent upon the pushing the the human sexuality beyond the scope of Scripture, or to contradict Scripture. I should say.

00:28:45.540 --> 00:28:49.290
Jared K Henry: then, I think that they either need to leave or they need to repent.

00:28:49.390 --> 00:29:00.310
Jared K Henry: I'd like for them to revenge, and but I think that they need to leave. But if what you look at and in denominations is, you find that the folks, being faithful to the historic.

00:29:00.360 --> 00:29:05.280
Jared K Henry: the stand of the Church in Scripture. In Scripture they are pushed out.

00:29:05.520 --> 00:29:14.050
Jared K Henry: and

00:29:28.650 --> 00:29:40.550
Jared K Henry: and the old wine skin might be the United Methodist Church. And now the new wine skin is the global method of church. So maybe they would make that claim. But I don't know that the Church of the Nazarene is old enough to be an old wine skin yet.

00:29:40.590 --> 00:29:51.560
Jared K Henry: and so there you go. I'm one to us that for us to experience a a refreshing, and at this point it's gonna it will be painful, I think, for us to really deal with all the issues.

00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:55.100
Andy Miller III: I think it comes to a place where there has to be

00:29:55.160 --> 00:30:11.090
Andy Miller III: accountability or

00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:29.390
Andy Miller III: accountability for that, like there needs to be a place where somebody comes in and says, this is the option, and it's not not necessarily like, for you know, one pastor and one church did the same thing happen in my denomination. There's a couple of now. Oh, sorry! There's a couple of territories within the Salvation Army that are in

00:30:29.390 --> 00:30:45.480
Andy Miller III: areas that are more more progressive than the United States.

00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:59.630
Andy Miller III: The international people who are in executive seats. Their role is to execute. Now, now, I'm not saying, Kill somebody, but like

00:30:59.670 --> 00:31:19.650
Andy Miller III: the Nazarene Church, so you execute the church admission. There. Well, we have people who are in authority and in your tradition, general superintendents, and my tradition simply the general right is responsible for executing that mission, and then facilitating that, and holding people to account, because we we've all committed to be a part of something.

00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:24.240
So it has to come to that place. And so you think that the nature of like

00:31:24.650 --> 00:31:27.740
Andy Miller III: the ground game, so to speak, like what do you think

00:31:27.810 --> 00:31:47.160
Andy Miller III: is that I this this won't, be exact, it won't. Be scientific. I recognize that the Nazarene churches around the world, like the global Nazarene Church. What what percentage would you think would hold to the a biblical understanding of human sexuality.

00:31:47.340 --> 00:31:50.440
Jared K Henry: Oh, I would say, you know 99%,

00:31:50.510 --> 00:32:06.600
Jared K Henry: really.

00:32:06.610 --> 00:32:16.500
Jared K Henry: And so I think you know the the whole idea of accountability. You You're dead on. How does it start? How did it start in the United Methodist Church? It started by someone just looking the other way.

00:32:16.540 --> 00:32:24.770
Jared K Henry: You know someone's obviously violated what we believe. and I think you can graciously implement church discipline

00:32:24.790 --> 00:32:35.050
Jared K Henry: and

00:32:35.050 --> 00:32:49.010
Jared K Henry: awkward, or this is a relative of somebody else that that can be an issue in in smaller denominations as well, and so I think to

00:32:49.080 --> 00:33:06.240
Jared K Henry: otherwise. It's like, Well, why say anything if you're not going to hold to it right and implement these kinds of things, and hold people accountable for what they do and what they say, and who they are. And so and again, I I think we would understand. They want to muddy the waters

00:33:06.310 --> 00:33:16.920
Jared K Henry: sometimes some of these folks. But there's a difference between issues of promoting a sexual ethic that goes against Scripture and debating upon

00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:27.120
Jared K Henry: whether Christians can watch Pg: 13 movies, or are rated, or Pg. Or TV at all. You know what i'm saying

00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:44.780
Jared K Henry: subject. Those are worthwhile conversations, as well to to debate or to discuss or to evaluate. However, those kinds of discussions are different than someone directly contradicting the clear teachings of Scripture, old and new testing

00:33:45.150 --> 00:33:57.650
Andy Miller III: right right? And so that's what happens. So you think, if it's not 9, let's see even say it's 95. But you know 5 those people the those folks are in positions of authority

00:33:57.650 --> 00:34:12.969
Jared K Henry: often is what you're saying so

00:34:13.090 --> 00:34:14.630
Jared K Henry: different ideas.

00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:19.100
Jared K Henry: But it would seem to me that a Christian seminary.

00:34:19.130 --> 00:34:32.989
Jared K Henry: specifically a Nazarene seminary ought to lead the charge on intellectually helping people understand why we believe what we believe about sexuality, and so

00:34:33.060 --> 00:34:51.750
Jared K Henry: advocating for behind the scenes more, some of their staff advocating for changes in what we believe we really standing up. And and I think the the Church of the Nazarene has a history of of being very supportive of universities. We've started a lot of schools. We have a seminary around the world. We have schools.

00:34:51.750 --> 00:35:10.340
Jared K Henry: and and then some of our scholars, William Great House and and Taylor, and a lot of these others who were advocates for what we believe they weren't working against what we believe they were advocates for it. And so I appreciate. You know that we need that today we need scholars

00:35:10.390 --> 00:35:23.020
Jared K Henry: who have gift of knowledge and understanding and wisdom, and to utilize that in a way that is supportive of the Church rather than eat away at the moral integrity of our statement on sexuality.

00:35:23.930 --> 00:35:36.940
Andy Miller III: This work gets interesting, and this is what happens in the United States, and I'm. Going to use an analogy that might not seem to apply at first, but for 15 years I've in the Salvation Army I as a Scottish army officer, that is.

00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:44.510
Andy Miller III: and oftentimes people would want to support our humanitarian work, which was done in Jesus name, by the way, because

00:35:44.510 --> 00:36:03.890
Andy Miller III: they they didn't like government programs, right they? And and I was often really glad to. We were glad to do that because we could have independence, and people would support us because of that. And what happens when you have bureaucratic structures that are develop is that they become like, you know.

00:36:03.890 --> 00:36:11.320
Ronald Reagan says, like we talked about government agencies like the closest thing to everlasting life.

00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:38.420
Andy Miller III: You know that we you could have like. Once it starts, it's really hard to stop it. And I kind of think about that in light of what happens in a denomination. So denomination creates an institution, creates a department, and it starts to have its own life in a denomination for good reasons. Wants to have a seminary right? Because we want to train our passengers, but I mean this is my little appeal to.

00:36:38.420 --> 00:36:54.960
Andy Miller III: We are unconnected to a denomination in in except in the sense that we are approved to train ministers in certain denominations, and I think that that keeps it so that we we are outside of any of those systems

00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:12.700
Andy Miller III: that can. Unfortunately, that I get caught up in the politics of a particular denomination, and I just wonder if that model

00:37:12.700 --> 00:37:18.990
Andy Miller III: this is this is where we go like, do is there? And how about this, Jerry, like? Do you think there should be

00:37:19.120 --> 00:37:29.960
Andy Miller III: the denominationally Oriented universities and seminaries? Is that something that's needed for the church as you or can you just like, stick with like a schools like us?

00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:47.670
Jared K Henry: Yeah, I'm: I'm: i'm definitely supportive with Wesley Biblical Seminary, Appreciate what you all are doing. I've got some friends that serve there on staff, and then the faculty and stuff, and so definitely appreciate what you're doing. You know I don't know that I would say it's either, or I think it's probably both, and

00:38:17.870 --> 00:38:20.330
of the church has to

00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:34.510
Jared K Henry: be constantly evaluate themselves, just like Scripture calls us to examine your sales individually, but I think even corporately. Let's examine ourselves. Have. Are we seeing in a local church? Are we seeing people come to know Christ.

00:38:34.730 --> 00:38:53.920
Jared K Henry: You know our our people go walking into the intimacy with the Lord. Our are more people coming and searching, and as our attendance, you know. S0 0ne of those measures may not tell everything, obviously, but when I go to the doctor, one of the first things they do is they take my temperature, and they check my blood pressure every time.

00:39:13.430 --> 00:39:31.900
Jared K Henry: Even our academic institutions need to begin to institute metrics upon themselves and be public about it. You know what is it? How many of the folks that are graduating from here are fruitful and faithful pastors? How many are leaving the ministry? You know all those kinds of things I think are

00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:48.130
Jared K Henry: now. We don't always want to talk about that, because, you know, I don't always want to talk about my attendance. If my attendance at my local church goes down. I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to talk about it. It's going up, but but I think to be faithful to what God's called me to. I've got to evaluate those things

00:39:48.510 --> 00:40:05.830
Jared K Henry: often and s0 0ften asking, okay, wait a minute, hey? It's been. It's been a couple of months since someone really came to know Jesus as their Savior, and had it had a life transformation. So what's going on here? Are we?

00:40:15.410 --> 00:40:21.890
Jared K Henry: And I think we've harmed ourselves by doing that, and that, too, lends itself to accountability.

00:40:21.970 --> 00:40:40.570
Jared K Henry: you know.

00:40:40.570 --> 00:40:57.390
Jared K Henry: and having other young people called the Ministry, and coming back to the school

00:40:57.390 --> 00:41:01.460
Jared K Henry: sometimes, whether they are faithful with those students or not.

00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:21.100
Andy Miller III: Not. A one of them is what was was

00:41:21.200 --> 00:41:31.800
Andy Miller III: Biblical orthodox like it now, and and they all received fine, and there there was some, I forget to say that you Boston University has had 2, just a couple less than 10

00:41:31.900 --> 00:41:55.020
Andy Miller III: menace people training to be, or or getting an elderly 9 Methodist church. Yet they were getting more than a 1 million dollars a year from the United States like that metric, is there. But is there something? This is why it's connected to the government programs. If the if if the government's going to keep on paying for you. Well, then, why do you like? What can there be true account? And I think that's what you're trying to do? So i'm not just trying to say.

00:41:55.020 --> 00:42:19.850
Andy Miller III: Stop all the stop, all the schools, and

00:42:20.330 --> 00:42:31.130
Jared K Henry: well, I think every any denomination also has to deal with institutionalism.

00:42:31.140 --> 00:42:48.320
Jared K Henry: So the to the neglect of of of God, that our institution can become an idle to us almost

00:42:48.320 --> 00:43:06.720
Jared K Henry: that we will, we are willing to say, hey, this is this is a problem. But yeah, I think just being part of a denomination is has got its own challenges, but but it but at the same time it's got its own benefits as well. That are important, too.

00:43:06.720 --> 00:43:24.150
Andy Miller III: And you have a shared history. Share the I mean it' Be easy to say, okay, we'll just have our independent thing. I you like your Church and Mackey. You'd rather not be moved. You've either own your own property or whatever. But there are theological and ecclesiological assumptions that are made with the fact that you don't property

00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:37.590
Andy Miller III: and and and those are things that unite. People like. People might not always understand that because they come from a different tradition. Okay, Jared, I I want to make sure to tell us more of what the Holy Partnership is doing now about your conference, how people can find out about it.

00:43:38.170 --> 00:43:54.010
Jared K Henry: Yeah. So we have. You go t0 0ur website, the host and you can. You can kind of follow different things that are going on. We're we're we're working hard to implement discipleship groups. We really believe that we're more of a grassroots. We're trying to

00:43:54.010 --> 00:44:10.850
Jared K Henry: do grassroots kind of stuff to to make things good things happen. A lot of pastors who feel isolated solo pastors and their pastors, even even those on staff places as well, though need to be incorporated into regular time. So I I have a couple of groups that I meet with every week.

00:44:10.850 --> 00:44:29.010
Jared K Henry: the for accountability, mutual encouragement. We challenge one another. We walk through the word together, and that that's just healthy. So we're doing. Some of that is grassroots, and then our gatherings that we do, we're not. We're not having a full gathering this year

00:44:29.010 --> 00:44:46.480
Jared K Henry: mainly because of the General Assembly of the Church of the Nazarene, but we will in 2,024, so i'll get out. Those dates are not out yet, and that kind of a thing, but we'll have speakers and stuff, and and all that. But and then we have workshops. We have a number of workshops, and really it's just about how do how does

00:44:46.830 --> 00:44:52.380
Jared K Henry: our doctrine of of holiness, Scriptural holiness? How does that impact?

00:44:52.430 --> 00:45:12.050
Jared K Henry: You know some of the issues that we're facing? And we're we we want to talk about the issues of what's going on? What about racism in our culture? What about the issues of life? Not just abortion, but but also euthanasia, a doctor, assistant suicide, you know. What are those things look like? What does it look like to have a

00:45:12.050 --> 00:45:27.460
Jared K Henry: a family in a time where it it just? The family is kind of eroding, and and that kind of a thing. So all of the not just human sexuality. But all these these issues that you know what about social justice, kinds of things or critical race theory? How all that? How does that

00:45:27.460 --> 00:45:36.210
Jared K Henry: match up with and in a line with Biblical truth, and with our message of a full salvation.

00:45:36.240 --> 00:45:46.140
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Oh, I love it so. I know you have that General Assembly coming up. What are some things that you're hoping will be the emphasize there, or like, is there something that

00:45:46.140 --> 00:46:03.360
Jared K Henry: you're You're you're seeing on the

00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:21.820
Jared K Henry: And so

00:46:21.820 --> 00:46:30.370
Jared K Henry: when they come together, and I i'm thankful for our general superintendents, but I think it's kind of it's kind of laziness on everybody Else's part to always

00:46:30.390 --> 00:46:31.170
Jared K Henry: kinda

00:46:31.390 --> 00:46:49.310
Jared K Henry: hunt to the the board of general superintendents on everything. And so

00:46:49.310 --> 00:46:59.330
Jared K Henry: and so, you know, I've talked to. I talked to leaders before, and it's like well, you know I just don't know if I want to do that. That causes a lot of trouble. It it it stirs things up, and it's just like well

00:46:59.530 --> 00:47:04.000
Jared K Henry: do something different. Then don't be a super don't be in the superintendency. Don't

00:47:04.040 --> 00:47:14.100
Jared K Henry: don't

00:47:14.100 --> 00:47:32.820
Jared K Henry: in my local.

00:47:32.870 --> 00:47:50.940
Jared K Henry: They've got enough on their plate. There's 6 0f them for the whole world, so we got enough on their plate to do. Then us keep hunting and giving them more and more responsibilities, and taking that away from from districts and then districts taking that away from local congregations.

00:47:50.940 --> 00:48:07.770
Jared K Henry: And I think that's some work we need to do. And I think we're gonna face we. There was debate at the last General Assembly before Covid. So it was almost 5 year, 5 0r 6 years ago, now that we had General Assembly on on gender.

00:48:07.770 --> 00:48:17.410
Jared K Henry: and you know our people do. Are you born with either male or female? And so there was some it. There was a there was a legislation that passed.

00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:33.970
Jared K Henry: and then it was kind of rescinded at the last minute. I felt like it was kind of a political move, and brought on my confusion. So we're supposed to see that legislation come back up. So you know i'm interested in what that will look like for our denomination. I think that's going to be important as well.

00:48:33.970 --> 00:48:39.400
Jared K Henry: And then just what happens with our human sexuality. We pass that at the last

00:48:39.460 --> 00:48:45.290
Jared K Henry: General Assembly, and whether there will be edits made to that, what those edits will look like

00:48:45.300 --> 00:48:52.310
Jared K Henry: if they if there are some proposals in that area. So those are the kinds of things I think that we'll be looking at.

00:48:52.720 --> 00:49:10.860
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it sounds good. Well, in in just real quick. How's that work? With the polity of the Church and Nazarene? It are all pastors. A part of the General Assembly, or people voted to be a part of the general.

00:49:10.930 --> 00:49:19.020
Jared K Henry: They they get so many delegates, so typically it's like the district superintendent is automatic. But then then there's usually 2 0r 3

00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:38.370
Jared K Henry: other elders, and then there's late. There's laity as well, and so every every district that's at a certain level in the world can send delegates. So it's a it's. We are an international church. So everything that we do. A general assembly impacts us internationally. Not just regionally.

00:49:38.570 --> 00:49:39.550
Andy Miller III: Gotcha.

00:49:39.770 --> 00:49:58.970
Andy Miller III: I mean. It's so interesting to hear this. I think people in my audience from other denominations like a lot of my audience is from the Salvage Army, but in other what Wesleyan, Free Methodist and global methods, I think they're finding they'll find this all really interesting and encouraging. Jared, I just want to exhort. You Keep out the good work.

00:49:58.970 --> 00:50:01.320
Andy Miller III: you know.

00:50:01.450 --> 00:50:21.440
Andy Miller III: and you know the theology that you're supporting is right in line with Wesley Biblical Seminary and things that we're doing to train trust to leaders for faithful churches, and we want there to be healthy institutions. And I love the way God has led you to this in the vision you have not to issue, but the Holiness partnership of really seeing that

00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:42.500
Andy Miller III: the the Net Church to Nazarene doesn't go down the same path that that that things can be turned. And so, though of our prayers for you in our support for you from West to Biblical Seminary, and Andy Miller's.

00:50:42.660 --> 00:50:44.010
Jared K Henry: I play pickleball.

00:50:58.680 --> 00:51:04.960
Jared K Henry: So since I've gone through my cancer spell, I've my age is starting on my rebound has been a lot slower, so

00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:20.840
Jared K Henry: I can feel it sometimes on Sundays after i'm preaching. You know a couple of times on Sunday morning, and then Sunday night, too, that my endurance is is low. So I've been trying to do some things just to work on my physical health and that kind of thing. So I guess that's that's

00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:27.910
Jared K Henry: maybe more to the story of me. I i'll tell you, and maybe a side note, too, is one of the things that I've learned in this.

00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:33.240
Jared K Henry: This endeavor is that you get a lot of criticism, and

00:51:33.350 --> 00:51:41.040
I I've encouraged folks who are also taking a stand in their churches or their denomination. Keep a tender heart.

00:51:43.460 --> 00:52:01.040
Jared K Henry: And sometimes what happens is you do just the opposite. You have a hard heart and thin skin, and that just doesn't work. Very well. You have to keep a heart tender toward the things of God, the work of the spirit. But you have to have thick skin to let some of the stuff just

00:52:01.180 --> 00:52:02.910
Jared K Henry: like water on a duck's back.

00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:19.780
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's good word. I think that's a great way to finish. Jared for us all to point to, and really to ask I to do that work in us. So we're ready.

00:52:19.810 --> 00:52:28.450
Jared K Henry: and where they are, and I know that that's been a part of your own ministry as well. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Copyright ©2024 Andrew S. Miller III