Andy Miller III
Cover Image for Roe vs. Wade and Saving Babies with Matt Friedeman

Roe vs. Wade and Saving Babies with Matt Friedeman

December 16, 2021

Will Roe Go? Dr. Matt Friedeman, professor at WBS, has been a leader in the pro-life movement for years in Jackson. He and I talk about Roe, saving babies, and much more.

You can find the audio podcasts at these links:

As the academic dean at Wesley Biblical Seminary, I can’t help but let you know about a few courses you might find interesting:

Wesleyan Theology of the Body + Wesleyan Public Theology

Wesleyan Public Theology will be taught by Dr. Ryan Danker and Dr. Joy Moore. Wesleyan Theology of the Body will be taught by Dr. Tim Tennent. Both courses will give insight into how Christians should respond to the most pressing political and cultural issues.

  • Only $250
  • January 17-20
  • Hosted in Washington DC
  • You can participate in DC, via real-time video, or by watching the recorded class sessions

Ideological Threats to the Church with Dr. Steve Blakemore

Most church leaders aren't prepared for the ideological threats that are decaying the foundations of their churches. This course will prepare you to respond to secular ideologies that are undermining your church’s faith and witness.

Topics include: transhumanism, homosexuality and transgenderism, progressive Christianity, and critical theories.

  • Only $250
  • Mondays, 6-8pm CST
  • Begins January 10 and finishes April 30
  • You can participate on campus, via real-time video, or by watching the recorded class sessions

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at or touch base directly with Keith at


Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals. You can find out more about Bill’s business at

For the King!

Dr. Andy Miller III

Here's a transcript that might not be accurate.

Unknown Speaker 0:01
This is the more to the story podcast with Dr. Andy Miller. We hope you guys enjoy today's conversation. I'm so glad everybody's come along to the more to story podcast today. For the second time we're combining with the life changing discipleship podcast with Matt Freeman. And we're talking about an important issue that's happening right now, just a couple of miles away from where I'm located at Wesley biblical seminary. And that has to do with the Supreme Court oral arguments are coming to challenge the Roe versus Wade ruling from 1973. This is a monumental time and I encourage people to really pray about this and Matt freedom and Dr. Matt freedom and his church here at Wesley biblical Seminary. He is an expert on this. Now, he does this in a way not necessarily the legal arguments, so he understands that too, but on the practical ministry side of thinking about what's involved on the ground, I think you're going to enjoy and appreciate this podcast. The more to the story podcast is brought to you by a couple of sponsors. Bill Roberts is a friend of mine. He is a financial planner, and he specializes in helping people realize their financial goals. And he's does this in a way that is unique, particularly with ministry leaders, people who have challenging kind of situations when they're dealing with parsonages or quarter's people who work in the Salvation Army. He's an expert with helping people in that denomination as well. So I encourage you to check out Bill's ministry the ministry that God's given him in helping people achieve their financial goals at William H. Awesome. This podcast is brought to you by WP o development. Keith waters and his team help people with mission planning studies, strategic plans and capital campaigns all across the country and they have offices all around the country. Great team members who understand how nonprofits and churches work and he helps people realize their kind of capital goals as they look to expand so you can find him you can just Google WP o development or you can find Keith at Keith dot waters Keith at waters at WP o Now we're gonna move on to this combined podcast with the moral of the story podcast and the life changing discipleship with Matt freedom and God bless you. Well, this is a special edition of two podcasts that are coming together. The more to the story podcast with me, Andy Miller, and the life changing discipleship podcast with Matt Freeman. We have brought our audiences together here for a special topic, Matt, thanks for coming along and doing this

Unknown Speaker 2:16
with me. Well, thanks. And listen, it's an honor always an honor to be with you, particularly in the media like this. That's great. Listen, I want everybody to check out both of our podcasts Right? Right. So life changed into sup you more to the story people need to know there's some other things out there for you, like life changing discipleship, and of course, folks listening to my podcast, I want you to be sure to check out Andy Miller's podcast called more of the story. I think you'll really love it.

Unknown Speaker 2:40
Yeah. And look, Matt teaches here. He's taught here at Wesley biblical seminary for more than 30 years. So there's a great opportunity I have to learn from him on a regular basis. And this is a person who has been in the fight for a long time. He's a salvation foo and the Salvation Army my group is a salvation is without a uniform. I'm telling you, he's out working preaching the good news of Jesus Christ. And in interacting with our community here in Jackson. I've been I've loved it, actually. And that's why I want to talk about Qigong. No, I just

Unknown Speaker 3:09
want to say, to call me a Salvationist without a uniform may be the tallest compliment I've ever received. I love that. I don't know if you know this or not, but my family over the dinner table memorizes and repeats a lot a lot of things that we sing songs ago, we do Old Testament, but one of the things we've done is memorized a couple of William Booth quotes across the years, okay, I just want wimboot to be on their brains for the rest of their lives. And it is that's how much I love William Booth Yeah, sure. they memorize when booth

Unknown Speaker 3:40
Yeah, and I was there when he when I came to your house we sang Oh, balanced salvation.

Unknown Speaker 3:44
How about look at that one of my favorite hymns that's not in a nearly enough hymnbooks. Right, it's gonna

Unknown Speaker 3:49
be in a new hymn book. It's a new West pan Wesleyan hymn book that's coming out here soon. So I just wanted a little coming out by seed berries award for that. So here's what I want to, I want to talk about a few things. Look, as I've been here, within three days of me living in Jackson, this man here and His Church, got my kids, my 14 and 12 year old boys, not my daughter yet. And he had them out in front of an abortion clinic, the only abortion clinic in the state of Mississippi, praying, holding up signs encouraging people. And I have been encouraged by the way you take your pro life views so seriously. And you do this because you've seen the effects that can come when lives are saved. Now we're at a really critical point. You and I are recording this on a day where tomorrow, the Supreme Court of the United States is going to hear oral arguments about a case involving the abortion clinic that you go to at least once a week.

Unknown Speaker 4:45
Wow. And then I don't know why it was that. Our court case came up and that is the Mississippi court case. And it's the Jackson women's health organization. So we have been out there Wesley biblical seminar has been out there for 38 yours. Yeah, yeah, I mean, think about that. For the better part of four decades, we've had people who have graduated from our seminary been on the cutting edge of the pro life movement out in front of the abortion clinic. You know, and I don't know, I don't want to. I appreciate all the pro life workers and there's so many out there, that it uncredible job across many decades. I just wonder if God didn't look down at that situation. Say, you know, you guys have been slogging down there for four decades. I want to do this for you. It's gonna be your court case, it's going to be your abortion clinic that ends up right there on the national stage. And we don't know what's going to happen chance that Roe v. Wade could be overturned. I don't know why, no, probably in the summer. You're out there this morning. I was out there this morning. What was the scene like there? You know, pretty quiet when I was there. But the fact of the matter is, it's very busy. Because there's been a lot of states of conjoining states coming in all the way from Texas, actually, Texas and Louisiana. A lot. A lot of people come into our clinic. And, and yeah, yeah, I think it's important that to recognize one of the guys have been out there guy named Doug Lane has been out at this abortion clinic for years of graduates a biblical seminary. And he says it's the principle of presence. The more people we have out there praying, and speaking people in love, the more lives we save, Hmm, now what will break your heart is, I recognize that, but sometimes there's almost nobody out there. And then sometimes we'll have you know, 2530 people

Unknown Speaker 6:31
now talk to me about that. I mean, maybe some people, particularly people outside the United States, maybe the idea of standing in front of an abortion clinic gives a bad image in their mind. If somebody who's hate hateful and pointing their finger. What do you what do you do when you got?

Unknown Speaker 6:44
Well, there's definitely some of that. Well, early on when we started this, I made the case listen, I'm wanting to go out there but don't want to be out there when all that stuff's going on. Okay, because we want to go out there and love. I think love wins. Yeah, I think love wins the day. Amen. So we want to go out there and love. We want to go out there, however, saying, We can help you, right? I actually think we're out there. We're the pro choicers those ladies going in don't think they have a choice. We want to tell them you do have a choice. Yes. And anything you need for us to do, we're willing to do in order for you to choose the life today to choose on behalf of your baby. So that's the kind of presence I love to take out there. And we've done some unusual things here Wesley biblical seminary, but for for many decades now we've said if you want an A in a freedom in class, my name is Matt Freeman, I teach these classes. If you want an A, you need to either go with me to the prison to preach on a weekly basis. Yeah. Or to go out to an abortion clinic. Right. And let's, let's try the love these ladies their life. And and so we've had across years, lots of Wesley biblical seminary students. In fact, since in the time we've been going out there with Wesley biblical seminary students, that's not counting the 38 year old, the 38 tenured guys 30. Right, right. It's not them. I mean, just from my classes, there have been 1000 babies that have been saved. Now think about that. There are people running around this town right now in their 30s. Yeah. And really all over the nation because people move. Yeah, that that are out there because people dare to just show up and pray and speak love and say, Listen, there are options here. Right, right. Do we think we can and one day, I was out there and a lady whipped around says hey, yeah, we raised my baby. Okay, and I looked at her said, Well, yeah, now I had to go. I had to go my wife. Yeah, sweetheart. Yep. Six. Yeah, you have six, will we? And she says, sure we would. I love the answer. Sure. We would. Wow. I mean, instead of dying, we could have that baby. And so I want to I want you to know, sometimes the big criticism of the pro choice, or the pro abortion movement is you only care about babies in the womb. You don't care about right. Right. Right. I'm thinking you don't know pro lifers. Wow, it's a pro lifers who are doing the adopting? Wow, it's the pro lifers that will adopt those babies who are safe in the abortion clinic. And I know that because we have two prominent families with lots of children, and then we'd go out there on a regular basis. And some of those children are indeed children that were saved from that clinic. Wow. So it's a beautiful story, hear it, but it's a beautiful story everywhere, where pro life people decide we're going to get involved, not just talk right life or not just vote pro life, we will hope you do both of those right? But it's not enough. It's what we

Unknown Speaker 9:26
talked about here for these first few minutes. We haven't mentioned anything about Roe versus Wade, or the Supreme Court moral arguments are gonna be tomorrow. I don't know when that will be when this podcast will actually land for both on both of our channels. I mean that those are important things. But I love the focus that you have like this is about lives. This is about mothers in our community, where we have opportunity to help save babies lives. Anything else you wanted to add, like, what about the pro life cause in general before we get to Supreme Court? Sure.

Unknown Speaker 9:53
I'm a big hypocrite. Let's start Okay, so you know, I was in the media in Jackson for years had a twice weekly column in the statewide daily at a radio show was local and statewide and it went national. And then I would do local TV political analysis. And so with all that going on, one of the things I would say continually, if pastors would get up and do something about this, yeah, if pastors will get up and go out to the clinic, if pastors would instruct their people to let's get involved the crisis pregnancy center, we could end this thing overnight. Now, my spiritual gift is a big mouth. Haha, that's my spiritual gift. We said, you know, operate out of your spiritual gift. Yeah. The problem with that was it was a safe thing to say, because

Unknown Speaker 10:40
you didn't have to do anything. I

Unknown Speaker 10:42
asked my spiritual, get my big mouth. And so I don't have anything. So we planted a church 21 years ago, we plan today spring Community Church, right church, and the very first Sunday, one of the board members of prolife Mississippi came up and she says, Pastor, now first off, I love that word, Pastor because that meant she was wanting to, for me to be your pastor. Right? I love that. If you're if your church plant starting out your first sermon, like you want people to say, Pastor, okay, so she says, Pastor, I see Yeah, she goes up. When are we going to start our abortion clinic ministry? Hmm. If anything could ruin a good mood. I mean, we had a great first service people were loving it. It was it was boisterous. It was vibrant. It was robust. It was hilarious. And then she had to say that, yeah, I didn't want to go out to the abortion clinic. No one wants to go out to an abortion clinic. Right. You just don't want to do it. Right. It's horrible. But that's what Christians have been known for across many years, is we're willing to run to the sound of the pain, the pain is no fun, right? The pain is not a beautiful thing to see. The pain is not something that we're attracted to. That's why we run to it right to help people out of the pain. And so that next week, the next Saturday, literally, me in the family, we're out there, and we pretty much been there ever since. And I think it's a great thing to be involved with. It's a hard thing to be involved with, which is why not a lot of people are involved at the clinics. Having said that, we still need people to say regardless of whether the supreme court rules in favor or against Roe v. Wade, we still need to stay in the fight.

Unknown Speaker 12:22
Right. So this is an interesting place right now. I heard Robbie George Robert B. George, who's a Princeton jurisprudence professor who's well known. He said he says roe will go Now I went ahead like I maybe don't even want to talk about cuz you like your focus is on let's save babies. That's

Unknown Speaker 12:38
a good so I don't want to get my I don't want to get too encouraged. Right. Okay, you're cautious right? Now you have to budget in, it might not right. If you don't budget that in, then you're just going to get depressed and it's not gonna solve everything, but it'll make a big difference. What it does is in a state like Mississippi, if Roe v Wade is overturned, you got one month, my understanding is you got one month from when it's overturned, and then it clicks in. And I had guys out there this morning says, if it is overturned, what is supposedly going to be the reaction of the church in Jackson, Mississippi to those 30 days. Because they're going to try to get a bunch of abortions. Now, what will we do? Well, we just say Whoo, good. Roe v. Wade has been overturned, hallelujah vine, the glory and not go out to the abortion clinic in those 30 days. I thought, right. That's a great question. Are we ready? Because it is a question of faithfulness. Right? It's a question of running to the sound of the pain. It's a question of are we really taught trustworthy in the eyes of God to do the things he knows we don't want to do but need to do anyway. Right? And it's going to be interesting to see but regardless of whether it happens or not, some of the states like Mississippi immediately overturn abortions in their state their will know that we have one last abortion clinic in Mississippi. It's the one that's the Supreme Court case right now. But that'll be gone. Right. And it'll be hilarious if we've always prayed for this. Could a church plant happen in that building? Wow, that's gone. Now. It may not be gone this year. Yeah, we'll be away may not get overturned. But someday we're praying for a church plant and move into that building.

Unknown Speaker 14:08
Wow. I love it. Let me stop here for just a quick advertisement. Like we have some sponsors on both of our podcasts. One of them is a place we work Wesley biblical seminary, right, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And our the way we do that is we offer undergraduate, graduate and doctoral programs. We have a lay initiative, something called the Wesley institute that happens once a week, like when we say we're developing trusted leaders, we're not just developing trusted senior pastors, we are wanting to invest in Sunday school teachers, church board members, people who are looking to go deeper in their faith and there's many options so you can go to and we're teaching that class this coming spring, which will start it's a spring semester starts January 10. On ideological threats to the gospel and this is going to be taught by our philosophical theologian don't be afraid because of that term. Philosophical theologians Steve Blakemore in those seems like one of these classes that we really push forward as a way for people to audit classes, something that you might be able to do. So check us out at WB Now I want to give you like a one little piece from my perspective, as I'm hearing this, you and I, a few minutes ago recorded another podcast about my denomination grant the Salvation Army. And we talked about kind of like this move that's come in pushing a liberal agenda within certain court, I would say a small minority that's pushing that. But what's interesting to me is that as the Salvation Army has embraced the word social justice, of course, the the basic, beautiful concept of it that has been around since our founding, it we've always embraced that is that we haven't we've de emphasize pro life causes. Now, like what I want to suggest is like, if we value all of these beautiful things that you're saying, but opportunity to speak into the lives of people, and it means that we could the Salvation Army, and other denominations, maybe for the sake of political expediency, right to not rock the boat too much. We haven't stood up as clearly as we could for right for pro life causes.

Unknown Speaker 16:10
So your Salvation Army, you see that with your denomination, I'm church, and as I see it with my denomination, very rarely does anybody talk about this issue? And I'm thinking what is with us? We're talking about a million to 1.5 million deaths every year that are sanctioned by federal law. You kidding me? And we don't want to talk about it. We all know what's wrong, right? This I we have a friend used to be a board member here started the first abortion clinic in Mississippi. Did you know that I did not know that her name was Beverly Smith at the time, okay. And she says, Okay, I'm here. I'm beginning to come around to this issue. Let me tell you when she came around, she came here from Chicago, she had seen what a coat hanger could do to a human body. And she says, I got to do better than that. So she came down part of her community service when she moved to Jackson, Mississippi, was let's, let's start a abortion clinic that does it right. And so she was in training for this one day. Yeah, she had started to do them, but then went to some training. And they taught her how to do an abortion. But the biggest part of it is after the abortion, and she says you put in your hands, the POCs the products of conception, okay, so you look down it says, okay, are both legs, there are both arms, there is a thorax there are the ribs there. And because if any part is still in her, we've got major problems. Wow. So something really bad could happen. So count them, make sure all the pieces are there in your hand. She goes, I began getting an idea that maybe just maybe this was it for maybe squids, she says, By the way, all pro Abortionists will have a visceral reaction where they'll ever admit it or not. Because they're looking down at a human being. Wow, that was all together not long ago. But today, right now in this moment is just torn asunder, because I'm looking down there and I see a perfectly formed arm with a little bicep. Oh, my. And my son was running around in those days. Say mommy, mommy, look at my muscle. How am I good? And she says, My God. There's a perfectly formed just like my boy. A moment ago. This was all together. Now. It's torn a piece. And I did this. She goes, so it wasn't long. One of the one of the parts of her salvation story is Wesley biblical seminary at that point was two doors down from her house on State Street. They came knocking at her door Wow, invited her to church invited her to know Jesus Christ. She eventually came to the Lord stop doing abortions. And now she's one of the biggest pro life advocates in all the land and of course her husband Roy was a great pro life protester at the abortion clinic. The whole point here is it's important to engage the issue and she thought as a person that started the clinic maybe I want to spend the rest of my life against the clinic. Wow. Now the question did you head I was leading into that with this with all of this I forget what it was.

Unknown Speaker 19:05
I was talking about denominations Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker 19:07
So the whole point is it's not a fun issue to talk about not for her not for anybody we hate the issue and that's why we stopped talking about it so the Salvation Army we just tired of it we don't want to make this look fundamental right makes us look right wing and I'm thinking okay, I'm good. You don't want to talk about I don't want to talk about either but it's a justice issue. Right? And babies are dying in the womb and you know, it's wrong and if you don't know what's wrong, you need to go back to your denomination positions because most people listening to this broadcast right now will say my denomination nation has taken a stance on this. Let me follow through with that stance. And embrace it holy Yeah, embrace it fully. Start talking about it like I know I should or get out of the denomination Hello, there's a lot of liberal denominations that right love to have you right. But if you're going to be a conservative and a spirit Fill denomination right right Salvation Army is that nazzer? Ian's are that right? Go ahead and live up to it.

Unknown Speaker 20:05
I mean, so in my denomination our first article Faith says, We believe that the scriptures the old New Testament were given by inspiration God, and they only constitute the divine rule Christian faith and practice mouthful. I know. But there's this kind of scriptural foundation, but then every person who joined to Salvation Army, and I'd be glad for you to join, if you ever wanted to get a Salvation Army uniform at all, they say this, I could get turned on by my just work it out, I don't know, it says we will tie we will do this blankly like we will uphold the purpose of the kingdom. But he also say this, we will or I will uphold the sanctity of marriage and family life. Because the essence of that is like that there is a family that exist like that there's a reality that we have we see acknowledges as a life that needs to thrive, we value the life of that child, we recognize the challenges, and if any denomination is like kind of like Nazarene and the Salvation Army that's willing to say we care for people after they're out of the womb, this these type of holiness denominations that have taken the lead on these fronts. So like, I think we value that, and it is a missed opportunity.

Unknown Speaker 21:03
But when we have value that we don't talk about anymore, yeah, we don't act on it anymore. Then we can say we value it, we can say it's written in the articles of faith, we can say it's written up somewhere in our manual. But if you're not living it, if you're not talking about it, you don't value it.

Unknown Speaker 21:22
Wow. And so and this is why like, we kind of tease this out with the idea of what's happened. The Supreme Court, you notice, we haven't talked very much about the Supreme Court, right? And it is important, like what's going to happen there, like the laws reflect a moral compass of our society. And there's an a wrong has happened with Roe that came about, and there's an opportunity to correct it. But that's not the emphasis we have today.

Unknown Speaker 21:47
Well, and I'm glad because I'm not an expert on legalese. But having said that, that's why Robert George, yeah. Fully anticipates this thing's going to fall. That's why Clarence Thomas, perhaps even now today wants it to fall, right is because they recognize I saw something this week. There was a governor Shaheen from his New Hampshire I forget anyway, out east somewhere. And she says it's going to be if you pro lifers want a revolution, then overturn Roe v. Wade, we will have a revolution. I'm thinking, I think, Senator, one to 1.5 million deaths a year isn't some kind of revolution. Wow, we want to be people of the counter revolution he made. But in that article, what it said was this. We need to take seriously what women are feeling on this. I'm thinking alright, I like that. Yeah, sure. But that has no basis for how we decide Supreme Court cases. We don't do things on feeling. That's the brilliance. That's the beauty of what we do in this nation. We're not based on feeling we are based on law. We're a nation of law, right? We're states of law. We're cities of law. That's what we do. And so we look at the Constitution of the United States of America. And we discern from that constitution, what's right, and what's wrong. And when there's a question, we throw it to the states. There you go. And there you go. If it's not talked about, we throw it to the States. Now, there's all kinds of you know, wiggle room there, as we have found. Al Gore once said, The Constitution is a living and breathing document, which means do whatever you want with

Unknown Speaker 23:26
it, right? Sure. And scriptural interpretation is a very similar path that people is it ever a peril. Now, I want to

Unknown Speaker 23:34
show all that to say, everybody, even the Liberals know this. It's coming. Roe v. Wade, was based on shoddy interpretation of the copyright. Everybody knows it. And so what we're going to find increasingly, I hope over the next several weeks, are the Supreme Court justices are going to look at that and be embarrassed about what happened in 1973. And say, whether we like it, or we don't like it, we've got to go back and do the right thing here.

Unknown Speaker 24:02
Right? Well, I'm hopeful and we're praying for that and fasting for it tomorrow as this is gonna happen. Like we're ready to like, do our part of that I'm so thankful encouraged by the way you're doing that you'd like my family to embrace that, that as well. It hasn't been something that we've done, but we've taken the freedom and cue and I like to take as many freedom and cues as possible. So that's a lie to tell you this good point why Robert George thinks is gonna have he thinks is gonna be six to three. Because he thinks well, it might be five be the Republican base, conservative versus liberal kind of breathing interpretation. So then he says, the reason why he thinks Roberts who has an idea for keeping the court kind of centered, and like not too reactionary, if it's six to three, then he'll have opportunity to write it. But if it's five to four, somebody like Clarence Thomas will be able to write the

Unknown Speaker 24:51
write, which I would love to see. I mean, I don't want to get fired before I don't want to be done. Yeah, no, zero, man. Yeah, I'd love to see Clarence Thomas, write it Yeah, God bless him.

Unknown Speaker 25:01
So thanks so much for coming to this in like we're gonna have opportunity to share I imagine we'll have dual podcasts before but again, this has been the more historic podcast with Andy Miller and the life changing discipleship podcast with Matt freedom and we are coming to you from Wesley biblical Seminary where I serve as Vice President for Academic Affairs and professor of theology and Matt serves as a John case professor of evangelism of He distinguished you go something like that. I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 25:26
Whatever. It's he is a professor of evangelical studies, but John M. Case was a great man. I'm honored to fill a seat. Awesome. God bless you. Thanks so much for joining us.

Transcribed by

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