Andy Miller III
Cover Image for The Political Seduction of the Church with Dr. Michael Brown

The Political Seduction of the Church with Dr. Michael Brown

August 25, 2022

Dr. Michael Brown provides a helpful analysis of the political milieu in the United States. While voting for Donald Trump in 2016 and 2020, he offers a cautionary word about the way some Christians have been politically seduced.

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Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am so glad that you all have come along this is going to be a great show I am so excited.

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Andy Miller III: about the guests that i'm going to introduce in just a minute, but before I do that I want to make sure you know about a few things we have a couple of sponsors of this podcast who make some of.

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Andy Miller III: The technical things happen, and one of those is Wesley biblical seminary where I work where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches.

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Andy Miller III: That means that we believe that there are churches out there who are looking for the.

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Andy Miller III: Six session series of more than five hours of content, looking at this little relevant book that calls out nice to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints and it's incredibly.

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Andy Miller III: Relevant for our time as i've gone through and really spent two years studying the Book of jude i'm amazed at how it speaks into our culture, so there are churches small groups families.

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Andy Miller III: homeschool groups all around the country that are using this little little study that I put together, and you can find that Andy Miller, the that's Andy Miller, I I calm.

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Andy Miller III: Well, now let's get into our show i'm so excited today to have on Dr Michael Brown, who leads at ask Dr brown ministries and Dr brown we are so delighted to have your I have to say, as it gets cited as we get started.

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Andy Miller III: I am a little worried because I think I agree with you too much it's Okay, I really appreciate all the content that you put out your books podcasts videos it's really excellent so it's a real honor for us to have you here.

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Michael Brown: Well Andy thanks so much it's a joy to be with you and i'm sure we'll find a lot of commonalities We talked today.

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Andy Miller III: yeah maybe we'll even disagree it's Okay, if we do I don't think we will but i'm just incredibly thankful for people like you who are willing to as I, as I just described this call that comes from June to contend for the faith once for all delivered for the saints.

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Andy Miller III: That you're doing that in a public way resourcing the church and its really been to like we just tell people i've heard i've heard you for a while now for a couple of years.

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Andy Miller III: i'd love different people just tell your brief version of your testimony it's fascinating just so maybe some of my audience who doesn't know don't know you can learn a little bit about you.

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Michael Brown: yeah you know and i've shared it thousands of times the good things is it's such an amazing story that it never gets old.

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Michael Brown: amen God saved me in 1971 is a heroin shooting LSD using hippie rock drummer i'm Jewish so I grew up with no concept of Jesus I grew up in a fairly nominal Jewish home so, even though I was bar mitzvahs at the age of 13 it was more of a.

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Michael Brown: Religious ritual than a spiritual experience and my big life changing experience at the age of 13 was going on my first rock concert.

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Michael Brown: Seeing Jimi Hendrix and concert and just caught up with the whole counter cultural revolution, and one of the be like these rock stars and emulate their lifestyle so.

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Michael Brown: Drugs were just starting to circulate in my neighborhood someone asked me if I wanted to try getting high smoking pot and.

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Michael Brown: I thought you know the rock stars do this, plus you're not supposed to say that that may be want to try it.

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Michael Brown: And one thing led to another I started using heavy drugs very early on, because my body seem to have a high resistance to drugs, so I just ingest it large quantities that became part of my identity, I got nickname drug bear and iron man.

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Michael Brown: I was a good drummer was playing with two friends in high schools, we get high practice with our band go to rock concerts that's how we live, day and night.

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Michael Brown: And I was thoroughly enjoying my sin, and my rebellion I wasn't in jail at that point, I hadn't died of an overdose so I got perilously close because of my foolishness.

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Michael Brown: And my two friends God started to draw them in they like these two girls, whose uncle was the pastor of a little Pentecostal church in Queens New York.

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Michael Brown: The girl started going to the church their data been praying for them, my friends started going they started to change.

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Michael Brown: I didn't like it so August of 71 I went to pull them out and tell them the thing was just stupid, but the people were so nice and loving and kind that's all whatever they have their religion, I have mine, let them do what they do.

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Michael Brown: And people began to pray for me.

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Michael Brown: I didn't know it, I was completely unaware, but the Holy Spirit began to chase me down and convict me of sin.

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Michael Brown: wow I went from literally.

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Michael Brown: One night laying in bed thinking how cool I was and I stole money from my own father and tricked by best friends and did all these massive quantities of drugs, look at our cool I am to the next slide laying in bed feeling like an absolute wretch.

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Michael Brown: For those same things and I didn't know, it was the conviction of the spirit, had no idea.

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Michael Brown: I just thought why I need to do, different drugs, so I can sleep better at night, and before you know it my eyes were open November 71 I.

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Michael Brown: For the first time I believed that Jesus died for me, I went back to the church and I believed it, but I wasn't willing to repent your change.

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Michael Brown: nadella dealt with me intensely the next five weeks and and the service December 17 of 71 I became overwhelmed by the joy of the Lord.

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Michael Brown: Remember, I was into Zeppelin and Hendrix and grateful dead and these other bands and see them different ones numerous times in concert.

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Michael Brown: vine so loud you couldn't hear yourself screen here, I am in this little church, with a pastor's wife playing piano these old little bitty hems and i'm.

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Michael Brown: overcome by the joy of the Lord I realize.

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Michael Brown: This is different.

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Michael Brown: Yes, qualitatively than any experience i've ever had it's different than a drug high and music higher friendship high a kindness highest sports hi this is different and I realized this must be what they call the joy of the Lord.

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Michael Brown: amen and at that moment I got a revelation of god's love for me.

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Michael Brown: I saw in my mind's eye, that I was covered with filth and the blood of Jesus just wash me cleanse he put these beautiful white robes on me and I was going out playing in the mud, and I said God That said, I will never put a needle in my arm again, and it was free from that moment on.

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Michael Brown: wow and when my dad saw the change in my life and then two days after I quit all drugs when my dad so the change in my life, he said, Michael it's great you're off drugs but reduce we don't believe this, so he brought me to meet the local rabbi.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Michael Brown: The local rabbi took an interest in me began to challenge me that's why I ended up learning.

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Michael Brown: starting to take Hebrew in college that ultimately got me on the path to my PhD in Semitic languages from New York university.

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Michael Brown: So that's been part of my life, ever since Jewish apologetics Old Testament scholarship and I kind of fuels and and and undergirds.

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Michael Brown: Everything we do our burden for revival in the church our burden for Gospel based moral and cultural revolution and society and our burden to see Israel saved and those are the three r's of our ministry as Dr Brown.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting as so that this trip at some point, though, as you went back to talk to you the rabbi's your dad brought you there you had to make a pivot right toward a church at some point, did you are you going to a Christian church it.

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Michael Brown: was going what what I started.

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Michael Brown: I went back November 12 of 71.

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Michael Brown: Okay that's when I believed, for the first time that Jesus died for my sins, but was not willing to repent so I kept going to services after that I will go to church one day we get high the next.

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Michael Brown: And they had several services a week, so I could go to several services and God was pulling me saw I was in between two worlds that.

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Michael Brown: Once once I surrendered December 17 then that was it I I went to every service if the door was open I went.

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Michael Brown: And then started to just grow in my personal relationship with God alone with him.

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Michael Brown: So I was in church, the whole time that I interacted with the rabbi and he brought me to meet other rabbis and other rabbis and other rabbis and and they challenged me some very deeply.

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Michael Brown: And I had to determine Okay, I know, God that you're real and I know that that being a Jew is important, in that you have you have a calling on the people of Israel there's a destination purpose.

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Michael Brown: So I must follow you and your truth and be a loyal do, regardless of where it leads if it means everything I believed about Jesus is wrong right and I have to renounce my faith and take the shame of it and leave the Church, then so be it.

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Michael Brown: If it means that everything I believe is true and I have to take the reproach of the Jewish community and be looked at as a trader and an apostate so be it.

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Michael Brown: I have to follow you and your truth, this is something I went through about three years into the Lord this this deep crisis after spending hours and hours and hours with these well educated rabbis by well educated, I mean in Jewish tradition and.

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Michael Brown: Ryan able to challenge me and and and they were just a spiritually oriented not, as I was it it got me to the point of crisis and out of that God even more deeply affirm to me the truth of what I believe.

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Michael Brown: wow oh it's been loving him with heart and mind.

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Michael Brown: Neither neither war.

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Michael Brown: But both end.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, I love it and that's been a big part of what you've done then is like often part of your ministry is entering into public debate.

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Andy Miller III: But I imagine, this has also been a very like personal your friendship sort of based.

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Andy Miller III: conversations you've had with Jewish leaders and Krishna and people who are just outside of the faith in general, but could you talk to us a little bit about some of the things that you've done some of those other debates that you've entered into and the approach that you take to them.

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Michael Brown: yeah sure so i've had the privilege of doing scores and scores of debates, and I believe and again this is just god's grace and calling because you have to remember what he took me from.

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Michael Brown: And I only gave the tiniest hint of the foolishness and depravity of my life.

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Michael Brown: i'm talking about huffing diesel gas from trucks to get high.

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Michael Brown: and doing crazy things.

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Michael Brown: God took that guy and raised him up as an apologist and scholar so it's it's all god's work in our lives, he gets the credit, but I, I believe I have done more public debates with rabbis than any human being on the planet.

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Michael Brown: Now that's also because it hasn't been done that much because there have been a community is not keen on doing these there even some that senior were forbidden from having those types of disputes also through church history at the worst times rabbis were forced to do debates.

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Michael Brown: And, and if they quote last and it would be fixed before the thing, even started.

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Michael Brown: You know if they quote last, then they can be exiled from a Community or have Tom woods burned or consequences like that they would be subject to listen to conversion airy sermons from from church leaders in their churches and things.

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Michael Brown: And, and then over the years, especially post-holocaust there weren't as many educated Jewish believers that were able to debate the rabbi's in a good literate way.

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Michael Brown: As they just seem to be a gap there had been more traditional Jews that have come to faith before the Holocaust and there seemed to be this this gap with so many of them lost, so the rabbi's would just demolish the Jewish believers who would debate them.

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Michael Brown: yeah so by god's grace just with rabbi really both tasks, known as america's rabbi america's most famous rabbi.

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Michael Brown: uh he and I have probably done more than 20 debates.

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Michael Brown: wow, including at Oxford University in England.

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Michael Brown: i've debated others like Bart ehrman the famous New Testament.

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Michael Brown: scholar and.

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Michael Brown: And an atheist agnostic debated gay activists.

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Michael Brown: Right leaders in that regard atheist some some Islamic debates.

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Michael Brown: And, and then within the faith had lots of debates say on the gifts of the spirit or or different things like that, but my approach to apologetics was not learned in formal classes.

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Michael Brown: back when people would say to me, you know, are you presupposition all or classical or evidential I had to look up what they meant because.

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Michael Brown: I had never.

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Michael Brown: learned those terms.

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Michael Brown: Here, so any debating i've done i've learned, just like most things, you can get thrown in the water and learn how to swim.

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Michael Brown: So there are two principles that I came up with in doing apologetics the first very simple The second very costly.

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Michael Brown: But to do effective apologetics number one, you need to rightly understand the other person's objection or position.

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Michael Brown: Often we pass each other, like ships in the night it's like you punch here and I punched back there and we haven't really connected, so the best way to know that you've rightly understood the other person's position is to restate it to them.

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Michael Brown: Okay, in your own words.

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Michael Brown: Am I correct and understanding that you have this view that view, yes Okay, so now we're communicating.

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Michael Brown: Yes, second one is very costly.

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Michael Brown: To adequately answer the other position you have to feel the weight of it.

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Michael Brown: um, in other words, you need to be able to see the world through that person's eyes on some level now I have not tried to do this in every area right debate.

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Michael Brown: But the main things that I really given myself to do say Jewish debates or moral and cultural issues i've really tried to see the world through the other person's eyes now you see it's very costly to do that.

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Michael Brown: Right, because you have to now be empathetic you have to put yourself in their shoes and that what if that challenges your own view.

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Michael Brown: Right or.

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Michael Brown: What if you can't be a strong and your conviction, now that you've you've seen it through the eyes of the others, but that's, the only way, you can really answer it look.

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Michael Brown: It would be just like you get a call from a friend weeping, on the other end of the phone they've been in the bad car accident, they think that the rest of their family members or killed and you say Romans 828.

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Michael Brown: All things work together for the good okay you've done no good.

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Andy Miller III: whatsoever right.

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Michael Brown: Right Thank you probably just alienated a friend and wounded them further.

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Michael Brown: But if you've been through last yourself, you realize Okay, right now, they just need they just need someone to hug them, they just need they don't need words, they just need.

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Michael Brown: right there they just need someone to hug them.

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Michael Brown: And over the months you'll get to Romans 828 and see God rebuild that life so, for example, when, God called me to begin to push back against homosexual activism in 2004.

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Michael Brown: Okay, and I saw them that this would be the principal threat to freedom of religion, speech and conscience in American fact that already was.

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Michael Brown: Right, it would be the one big issue that everybody had to deal with that.

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Michael Brown: When I was talking about it very few we're talking about, of course, there were people before me, I knew no, this is the whole nation is going to be talking about the soon, and the whole church.

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Michael Brown: won't be avoided.

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Michael Brown: So I had a burden to deal with the activism, but.

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Michael Brown: Yes, I knew I had to have god's heart for the people.

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Michael Brown: Right, I began to make appointments.

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Michael Brown: To talk with local activists to sit and say tell me your story, so I could better understand their background and how they saw the church and how they saw people like me.

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Michael Brown: I am asked a large library of books, written by Gay activists from from books like holy homosexuals of pastors gay pastor to to queer Bible commentary and things like that.

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Michael Brown: And, and I remember one night reading one book I just put it down.

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Michael Brown: And I got on my knees and wept and I said God I don't want to hurt people, I just want to help them, but I know the positions that I took would be perceived by them is hateful and so out of that.

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Michael Brown: God gave me a word reach out and resist reach out to the people with compassion resist the agenda with courage.

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Michael Brown: And that's marked everything we've done in this regard so you take your stand you don't water down the truth, you don't compromise it at all.

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Michael Brown: But you speak with a certain brokenness you speak with a certain empathy and midst of rebuking sin, in the midst of calling out differences.

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Michael Brown: And, and I found in in debates that that when you really grasp the other person's position, in fact.

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Michael Brown: I was getting ready for debate with rabbi smoothie and he was doing a radio broadcast at that time with a fellow from Jamaica, and not a Jewish guy and the guy said well what's your beef with rabbi smelly why Why is he disagree with you, so I started to present his positions.

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Michael Brown: And she really said Mike I don't need to show up for the debate you do sides.

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Michael Brown: yeah that this way people say Okay, you understand, like position you understand why i'm saying what i'm saying so, when you reject it, you reject it with substance.

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Michael Brown: You reject it on a level that carries much more weight and people on the other side, so Okay, he gets us.

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Michael Brown: Right even had a counter missionary rabbi.

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Michael Brown: With whom i've interacted for for many years over 20 years now, if we published everything we we've written to each other and probably be several thousand pages literally.

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Michael Brown: Literally so he and I are interacting once and I got little rundown I said hey I gotta cancel our our talk this week, and he said hey get better quick, because we need you, and I said.

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Michael Brown: wow you need me I said.

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Michael Brown: Because you think you're going to win me over and i'm going to be a traditional rabbi and bring people back to Judaism guess that's part of it, he said, but you understand is she the only one that really understands us and we need you like telling the Church, who we really are.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, I love.

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Michael Brown: In the midst of our deep opposition there has been a friendship and trust in a rabbi shmuel these become a dear friend, I attended a wedding of his eldest daughter flew into New Jersey, just to be there for that.

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Michael Brown: wow so that's the fruit of really understanding.

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Michael Brown: Being an advocate for the truth.

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Michael Brown: By going it's uncomfortable.

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Michael Brown: And, and there are a million blind spots, I have their million weaknesses, I have where were their their areas where I don't excel and and and I do my best to learn from others and grow from my mistakes.

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Michael Brown: But it gratifying to me when I will get emails from people on the complete other side of the ideological spectrum saying hey i've read your articles and you try to be fair.

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Michael Brown: Yes, we did a lecture to campus we can find anyone to debate me, so I did a lecture on on the campus about the Church and the gay community.

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Michael Brown: and afterwards, a guy came up to me, identified as a bisexual Christian and relationship with another man.

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Michael Brown: And said i'm really glad you did this because this is the kind of tone that needs to be set on the campus despite the massive differences we had So hopefully we can speak the truth in love.

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Michael Brown: Yes, and that can mark what we do.

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Andy Miller III: I love that you're able to these two points to understanding how you enter into a debate and really getting to know the other side, and I, and I also appreciate that you're highlighting that.

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Andy Miller III: Emphasis on truth, one of the things is when you get in and you know this better than me, of course, when you get into the other view.

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Andy Miller III: When you understand where they're coming from their emotional connections their intellectual connections, a cannon mostly due to question, and it should lead, you will, am I right here.

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Andy Miller III: And what are we committed to our we committed to the truth, principally, or are we more committed to our view or our institutions, whatever they have led us to be, and so I think that that's.

00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:39.690
Andy Miller III: A unique thing for us to be able to present is the opportunity to go where the truth leads us and to figure out that as a foundation for what we're going to do and you've done this like I.

00:20:40.020 --> 00:20:44.910
Andy Miller III: On a variety of subjects like you could have said okay my scholarship is related to the Old Testament.

00:20:45.360 --> 00:20:53.010
Andy Miller III: Semitic languages i'm going to stick there, but instead you kind of started like I am interested to this idea that with the sexuality discussion.

00:20:53.280 --> 00:21:02.940
Andy Miller III: way back in 2004 2003 you realize that this was going to be something that was really going to hit the truth of the church and society as a whole.

00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:11.100
Michael Brown: yeah you know i've i've read quotes from Francis schaefer in 1968 so that's a year before the stonewall riots and the.

00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:24.750
Michael Brown: wow that the bursting on the scene of gay activism had been here before, but that's when it really burst on the scene nationally, but Francis schaeffer is already making observations on how this will basically do a war on even male female identity.

00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:27.210
Michael Brown: wow seeing things like that I remember.

00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:40.230
Michael Brown: Listening to James dobson are seeing quotes from chuck colson it and they had been focused on these things because of the work they did and saw it so much earlier than than others of us saw, but when the light went on for me.

00:21:42.270 --> 00:21:44.310
Michael Brown: That was one of my questions okay why me.

00:21:44.790 --> 00:21:45.300
Andy Miller III: yeah sure.

00:21:45.330 --> 00:21:48.450
Michael Brown: Because I my academic background is not here.

00:21:48.990 --> 00:21:59.280
Michael Brown: I don't have a particular burden to reach the homosexual Community it's not part of my own testimony don't come out of homosexuality why me and that's when I realized, no one gets a pass on this.

00:21:59.310 --> 00:22:04.560
Michael Brown: Yes, Dr Al mohler said that the door The knock is going to come on your door pastor.

00:22:04.860 --> 00:22:11.970
Michael Brown: Where do you stand it's just the reality of where we are and I also knew that God had called me to controversy.

00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:18.510
Michael Brown: we're all wired differently i'm not a pastor i'm i've been a spiritual father to people but i'm not a pastor.

00:22:19.110 --> 00:22:34.710
Michael Brown: You know, there are some folks that they're just so gentle and and so we're all called to different things, and even though i'll be gracious and kind god's called me to you know from my head to be the tip of the battering ram that that smashes into the wall.

00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:38.340
Andy Miller III: You know my put my face on the dartboard you know to.

00:22:38.550 --> 00:22:53.640
Michael Brown: Get the attack so we're we're wired for these things and i've I was so burned about the culture that now Okay, I understood the connection, but I remember when tyra banks people wanted me to come on to talk about transgender children back in 2009.

00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:59.700
Michael Brown: yeah and I shouted to the nation you're experimenting on children now more and more, of course, are recognizing that and saying.

00:23:00.270 --> 00:23:11.700
Michael Brown: But when they called me I said Okay, you understand i'm a minister, you understand my doctorate is not in in sexuality or gender studies or family counseling they said, oh no no you're the right one.

00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:14.730
Michael Brown: And I thought he had probably just a big enough target tissue that.

00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:23.130
Michael Brown: haha but it's look we're all servants right right and then with everything I do it's always undergirded by biblical scholarship.

00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:34.980
Michael Brown: So the academic foundations, they always tie in because everything I do is going to come out from scripture and that's going to be the foundation, but, but when you mentioned.

00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:49.230
Michael Brown: Asking questions i'm Am I right about these things, that is what I hold to accurate so many times we give superficial answers, because we are insecure in our beliefs.

00:23:49.290 --> 00:23:50.460
Michael Brown: wow and.

00:23:50.640 --> 00:24:00.210
Michael Brown: We feel threatened, so we just pushed back with our pat little answers, because we can't dare wonder is that is that atheist right it's not really there.

00:24:00.270 --> 00:24:00.570
Andy Miller III: Right.

00:24:00.600 --> 00:24:14.760
Michael Brown: Right is the vibe really accurate, can I did Jesus really rise from the dead, whatever it is, and I don't recommend that people plunge into 1000 areas of doubt, where they're struggling.

00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:24.390
Michael Brown: Yes, I do recommend that you become so secure spiritually emotionally intellectually in your walk with God that you're not threatened.

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:29.760
Michael Brown: Right and that you think hey if i'm off here or there will still be it, I just want truth.

00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:33.150
Michael Brown: I just want truth, I just want to follow God and his truth and and.

00:24:33.390 --> 00:24:41.100
Michael Brown: Probably all of us over the course of our spiritual eyes make some adjustment here and there, or something where we were super dogmatic we're not so dogmatic on.

00:24:42.330 --> 00:24:44.670
Michael Brown: or something where we make a paradigm shift.

00:24:45.120 --> 00:24:47.670
Michael Brown: But i'm not here to stick my head in the sand.

00:24:48.120 --> 00:24:52.320
Michael Brown: Right over 50 years in the Lord i'm not sticking my head in the sand.

00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:56.760
Michael Brown: At the same time we're standing on the secure rock.

00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:57.390
Michael Brown: amen.

00:24:57.690 --> 00:25:07.590
Andy Miller III: And, and one of the things interesting as i've been studying the Book of jude is it starts off in this interesting way, he says in verse three that I had intended to write to you about the salvation we share.

00:25:08.010 --> 00:25:19.650
Andy Miller III: But i'm compelled to implore you to contend for the faith once problem you're saying something had happened that changed in the situation, and this is what what you're acknowledging is that there's a way.

00:25:20.130 --> 00:25:27.810
Andy Miller III: we're not wanting to talk about sexuality, all the time, this is like we would rather not i'd rather talk about the salvation that we share instead.

00:25:28.230 --> 00:25:33.510
Andy Miller III: This is being presented to us on a regular basis, like it did they're coming knocking on our door.

00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:43.320
Andy Miller III: And we're in we can either put our heads in the sand or we can respond because it's not just related to just sexuality it's connected to the doctrine of Revelation and creation and.

00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:50.730
Andy Miller III: it's biblical orthodoxy as a whole is tied together with a lot of these issues that common this presenting issue of sexuality.

00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:57.870
Michael Brown: yeah and look we get the emails and the request, day and night from the hurting families.

00:25:58.290 --> 00:25:59.640
Michael Brown: And hurting individuals.

00:25:59.910 --> 00:26:00.150
Andy Miller III: yeah.

00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:15.120
Michael Brown: I was talking to to one colleague a megachurch pastor who really seeks to avoid some of these issues, boys stepping into culture wars, I said forget the culture wars, these are pastoral issues.

00:26:15.510 --> 00:26:18.390
Michael Brown: amen their families are struggling, you know how many.

00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:21.540
Michael Brown: Parents right now we're dealing with kids who identify as transgender.

00:26:21.570 --> 00:26:28.020
Michael Brown: out of the blue, and and i'm and i'm not going to get a total of percentages, but but it's quite shocking.

00:26:28.170 --> 00:26:39.600
Michael Brown: yeah to see what's actually out there and to see what's going on it's it's a shock even mind boggling and, in point of fact, if we avoid these things that then we're not shepherding the flock.

00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:45.570
Michael Brown: And then we attack on scripture yes in these different ways and jude.

00:26:45.780 --> 00:26:46.200
Andy Miller III: yeah go.

00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.140
Michael Brown: To have mercy on those who down.

00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:52.680
Michael Brown: Right there's a there's a doubt that's rebuked.

00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:58.470
Michael Brown: Like in Jacob James the first chapter and some other passages where it's a double mindedness.

00:26:58.710 --> 00:27:06.930
Michael Brown: yeah we should be resolute and we're not there's another doubt regardless have mercy on those that people are struggling they're not sure.

00:27:07.470 --> 00:27:15.120
Michael Brown: don't don't don't push them away but say hey come with your doubts, you have permission to doubt permission to ask questions let's find the truth together.

00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:23.730
Andy Miller III: i've I want to present something you i've been insanely I wonder if it's if it's right or what do you think of it is this is that I got i've I serve.

00:27:24.030 --> 00:27:31.530
Andy Miller III: For 14 and a half years as a local church pastor and just in the last year and a half now i've been serving in the Academy training pastors I love this role.

00:27:31.830 --> 00:27:38.580
Andy Miller III: But it was probably about halfway through my my time serving as a pastor where I began to sit think I need to have.

00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:43.950
Andy Miller III: A series or signet or even at least a short series on sexuality every year.

00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:51.660
Andy Miller III: And here's part of what why I felt like that, and as I look at folks who want to avoid these discussions, they don't want to think about like like oh i'll have the right view.

00:27:51.840 --> 00:27:57.810
Andy Miller III: Right i'm a conservative and he believed me like I I believe in authority of scripture, but I just i'm not going to talk about it from the pulpit.

00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:02.070
Andy Miller III: And in my view, I feel like that's almost passed orally negligent.

00:28:02.370 --> 00:28:17.160
Andy Miller III: Because it's what is being presented on time and that's what you highlighted to with the megachurch pastor that you mentioned, I understand, like it's a very complicated issue, but because it's so present in our time it's it seems to be something that we have to address.

00:28:17.580 --> 00:28:30.630
Michael Brown: Under percent again let God be the judge of each individual servant of his writings 14 but, from my perspective, yes we're being passed really negligent now someone say hey i'm an expository preacher.

00:28:31.110 --> 00:28:45.930
Michael Brown: And I just go through scripture and, as I go through it then then whenever we come up on that's what we deal with fair enough, but if it's taking you 11 years to get through a fusions one you know, I wonder if your if your people are really getting the whole counsel of God.

00:28:46.230 --> 00:28:47.040
Michael Brown: And I respect.

00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:53.550
Michael Brown: Just just find out how if you got a good sized church, how many men on your church staff.

00:28:53.610 --> 00:28:55.110
Andy Miller III: are struggling with pornography right.

00:28:55.260 --> 00:28:56.820
Michael Brown: Those every time of the congregation.

00:28:57.180 --> 00:28:59.130
Michael Brown: How many men on the church that are you yourself.

00:28:59.340 --> 00:29:08.670
Michael Brown: struggling with pornography okay let's how about we start that these are real issues talk to all the young people, even if they're in in church school.

00:29:08.910 --> 00:29:12.300
Michael Brown: Talk to the young people and find out how clear headed, they are.

00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:19.530
Michael Brown: On gay transgender issues and how much they're dealing with this and how much they can present what scripture says and.

00:29:20.040 --> 00:29:30.930
Michael Brown: I would say your average leader would be utterly shocked I talked to a fellow in Charlotte he was ex gay he had a counseling ministry, but he was a professional counselor.

00:29:31.590 --> 00:29:41.310
Michael Brown: And was looking for clients, because this was his livelihood, so I said man, it must be a godsend to the Church is here to know that you're here locally.

00:29:41.670 --> 00:29:45.750
Michael Brown: yeah we always get requests hey my son wants counseling my.

00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:46.620
Andy Miller III: husband's guys yeah.

00:29:46.890 --> 00:30:01.470
Michael Brown: I want counseling where do we go and have someone local think your local church or pastors not equipped to do everything to have someone to refer him to and he says now he said when I go to the churches, they they tell me, we don't have this problem in our church.

00:30:01.530 --> 00:30:02.790
Andy Miller III: Oh, my goodness.

00:30:02.910 --> 00:30:07.560
Michael Brown: So that's that's what's out there, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:17.310
Andy Miller III: I think I was often regularly reminded that when a man would request an appointment with me, I can pretty much guarantee it was going to be the deal, and I was thankful.

00:30:17.370 --> 00:30:26.280
Andy Miller III: Praise gonna come in well but generally dealing with with pornography, I mean that's that's a foundation of lives Okay, I need to transition, I really want to talk about your new book.

00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:29.040
Andy Miller III: yeah one of the things i've so greatly appreciated about you.

00:30:29.190 --> 00:30:40.050
Andy Miller III: Is that you're willing to speak to the political situation in the United States of America now i'll make my own timidity at times to address this because.

00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:48.570
Andy Miller III: I have seen such an amazing block it just in personal conversations when I come up and I, and I start to share how i'm thinking politically.

00:30:48.870 --> 00:30:59.880
Andy Miller III: And it just is like oh man I just don't want to bring bring this up and even other well known Christian content producers like yourself are are probably avoiding some of these topics, would you be willing.

00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:14.730
Andy Miller III: To get right in there and you've dealt with it, I believe in a fair way, so your recent book that's just come out it's called the political seduction of the church how millions of Americans have confused politics with the gospel.

00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:19.620
Andy Miller III: So, Dr brown tell me what is it that motivated you to go after this subject.

00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:38.670
Michael Brown: yeah it's it's another book that I didn't want to write, but I felt that I had to write and just a quick word I do not like reading about politics right about LGBT Q issues i'd much rather be working on a commentary in the Bible.

00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:43.380
Michael Brown: Right or writing a face building book or writing something on on revival.

00:31:44.100 --> 00:31:59.340
Michael Brown: And these topics in many ways are defiling I mean that I don't mean that that you read stuff that's unclean in itself, I wouldn't do that I look at images that are unclean themselves I wouldn't do that but I mean it's just it's over this world.

00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:16.650
Michael Brown: So this age and it's just it's a dirty system in many ways and you're talking about issues of fallen human beings and and when I started my daily radio show in 2008 live talk radio I didn't know how much I would be political.

00:32:17.040 --> 00:32:19.140
Michael Brown: I knew I talked about moral, cultural issues.

00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:25.740
Michael Brown: So I tried to find what was right and again for me i'm spiritual first that's my orientation.

00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:35.220
Michael Brown: Yes, because the spiritual impacts, the moral i'm going to talk about moral as well well moral intersects with cultural and cultural intersects with political.

00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:39.360
Michael Brown: yeah so that's why i'll talk about political issues i'm not a political pundit.

00:32:39.750 --> 00:32:51.060
Michael Brown: Right i'm not one of those that it's going to weigh in on everything that's happening, you know this massive bill been passed by the democrats inflation, global warming, I haven't really said anything about it because there's not areas of specialization.

00:32:51.390 --> 00:32:52.950
Michael Brown: Within this God called me to focus on.

00:32:53.430 --> 00:32:55.950
Michael Brown: But with the trump presidency.

00:32:56.190 --> 00:33:05.550
Michael Brown: Yes, I was writing about trump or related issues, almost every day because he was so closely related to of Angelica Christians.

00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:13.140
Michael Brown: Right and and because we became so large the identified with him, especially white evangelicals and.

00:33:14.190 --> 00:33:23.250
Michael Brown: As time went on, I I opposed him during the primaries because I thought we could do much better with any other candidate and I absolutely did not trust him.

00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:23.910
Andy Miller III: Right.

00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:26.640
Michael Brown: I figured he's using us he's playing us.

00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:41.130
Michael Brown: Right like and we don't even see it, but then I had friends got close to him and said Mike he's sincere he's he really does want to stand with us and somehow believes in the rightness of our cause.

00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:51.570
Michael Brown: Right and then, when it was him versus Hillary Clinton, I thought okay it's uncanny that he won that he beat all these other candidates, I mean we're used to it now, but it was really laughable to think.

00:33:51.570 --> 00:33:52.980
Andy Miller III: about it back in the day.

00:33:53.610 --> 00:34:00.540
Michael Brown: And maybe there's something to this and I felt strongly when it came to abortion, when it came to religious freedom, when it came to standing with Israel when it came to.

00:34:00.810 --> 00:34:06.720
Michael Brown: pushing back against Islamic terrorists and some major things existential issues, I thought he's going to do a better job for Hillary Clinton.

00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:07.620
Michael Brown: So I hope.

00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:14.550
Michael Brown: I hope he keeps his word to us, but I have concerns, because, like a bull in a china shop and the recklessness could be costly.

00:34:14.970 --> 00:34:18.060
Michael Brown: yeah Well he he stayed true to his word.

00:34:18.150 --> 00:34:25.110
Michael Brown: Right, he surrounded himself with evangelicalism yet people like Mike pence and Mike pump pale other store and Christians around him, and so on.

00:34:25.500 --> 00:34:37.290
Michael Brown: and kept an open the year one of my friends was very close to him would say I just got off the phone with trump spent 45 minutes talking here's what's going on, and so I thought Okay, he could be dangerous.

00:34:37.500 --> 00:34:50.220
Michael Brown: But right now, it seems he's doing more good than harm as things got close to 2020 I started the a concern I wrote a book in 2018 entitled Donald trump is not my savior.

00:34:50.670 --> 00:34:58.560
Michael Brown: Okay, and i've been telling a leader speaks his mind about the man who supports is precedent, so I wanted to shout to the world Jesus Jesus.

00:34:58.740 --> 00:34:59.700
Michael Brown: He died for me.

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:08.550
Michael Brown: I he rose from the dead he's my, all in all I worship in my honor and my heart my soul my life belongs to him and him alone I vote for trump let's.

00:35:08.850 --> 00:35:09.900
Michael Brown: put them in two different.

00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.660
Michael Brown: Very different very short statement yeah.

00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:20.970
Michael Brown: yep two completely different worlds and I asked in that book is our relationship with trump a match made in heaven or marriage with hell.

00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:26.070
Michael Brown: wow which, which is it now, remember, I wrote this as a trump supporter.

00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:39.840
Michael Brown: Right, as we got closer to the 2020 elections, I began to get more concerned, I voted for him a second time again same principles, except this time, but the hindsight of he's kept his word with the embassy to Jerusalem.

00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:43.890
Michael Brown: For religious freedoms appointed three conservative justices to the Court, and all this.

00:35:44.100 --> 00:35:44.520

00:35:45.660 --> 00:35:53.520
Michael Brown: I voted for him more enthusiastically, the second time in the first, but as we got closer and closer to the elections I started to get more and more concerned.

00:35:54.330 --> 00:35:56.130
Michael Brown: I saw the degree.

00:35:56.640 --> 00:36:00.060
Michael Brown: That that we were merging the Gospel with politics.

00:36:00.120 --> 00:36:15.900
Michael Brown: Yes, I saw a rise of an unhealthy Christian nationalism, with which merges the Kingdom of God, with patriotism and wraps the Gospel and the American flag, I saw an unhealthy looking to Donald trump is the only man who could save America.

00:36:16.230 --> 00:36:20.430
Michael Brown: Right, I saw all of these charismatic prophets and i'm charismatic.

00:36:20.640 --> 00:36:21.300
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

00:36:21.390 --> 00:36:43.410
Michael Brown: To a person all the public voices saying trump will have four more years, etc, and then, when the votes came in and it seemed last fight, even if you believe it was election fraud, the frenzy the the the intensity of concern I watch Christian leaders Andy on Facebook on live streams cursing.

00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:47.700
Michael Brown: Those that they believe it's still elections, using the intricate tori Psalms Psalms of cursing.

00:36:48.390 --> 00:36:58.740
Michael Brown: cursing other people and, and I mean I was shocked it's it seemed that Christians lot of had fallen apart of trump didn't get it, I heard the prophets reiterating.

00:36:59.070 --> 00:37:06.930
Michael Brown: We there will be four more years of trump Joe Biden will never be inaugurated once was going to have this is going to shift, and this is going to shift, and this is going to shift so.

00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:13.710
Andy Miller III: When you say profits, let me jump in there you you've helped me with this, because this is a world that i'm not as familiar with that.

00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:24.600
Andy Miller III: People who engage in prophetic words and we affirm that as that comes from scripture but you've monitored these various things and people can maybe Google you like.

00:37:24.810 --> 00:37:29.640
Andy Miller III: To find out some of this or find it just go to your website to find this out, but you've mastered that and, like the ones that.

00:37:29.820 --> 00:37:41.430
Andy Miller III: have seemed to have legitimacy behind them and, but here, this is like people making prophecies that something's going to happen that according to the Constitution, at this point just couldn't happen.

00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:49.590
Michael Brown: Right and if you back it up, there were a few stray voices prior to 2016 who prophesied trump's election.

00:37:50.010 --> 00:37:53.910
Michael Brown: And, and they even put out disclaimers hey look I don't like the guy you know they were.

00:37:54.090 --> 00:38:08.220
Michael Brown: shocked by it, that caught my attention it seemed legit and gaba said hey look at it i'm going to use it totally unlikely man someone who doesn't even know me a totally unlikely man Well now, it just became everyone getting on the bandwagon.

00:38:08.580 --> 00:38:10.950
Michael Brown: It became this just like.

00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:12.780
Andy Miller III: prophecy like it's gonna win.

00:38:13.200 --> 00:38:19.530
Michael Brown: yeah yeah I don't know if they were seduced by by front running power having access to the White House or was just.

00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:22.410
Michael Brown: Something in the air, you know demonic deception, or just.

00:38:22.410 --> 00:38:40.230
Michael Brown: Right I information, whatever it was so a friend and I another colleague charismatic colleague, we became concerned that a lot of people going to crash and burn after this so I started putting out a safety net in advance and before all this crash, because I knew what was coming.

00:38:40.620 --> 00:38:50.400
Michael Brown: wow well to my shock once I began to say okay look trump was not really it didn't have even if you believe there was a steel he's.

00:38:50.880 --> 00:39:02.520
Michael Brown: going to be inaugurated Joe Biden is going to be inaugurated there's like a military that comes in and and removes by the installs trump is not gonna happen, I got a severe backlash.

00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.000
Michael Brown: When I began to address the queue and on conspiracy theories that.

00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:07.590
Michael Brown: It was like a cult.

00:39:07.710 --> 00:39:09.600
Michael Brown: Among Christians, I thought.

00:39:10.020 --> 00:39:11.340
Michael Brown: How did this happen.

00:39:11.670 --> 00:39:13.380
Michael Brown: yeah, this is the political.

00:39:13.560 --> 00:39:17.790
Michael Brown: seduction of the church right in front of our eyes it's like we sold our souls.

00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:29.880
Michael Brown: And at that point my Facebook followers or maybe it's about 590,000 something like that the moment I publicly addressed the the trump profits and said okay you're wrong.

00:39:30.630 --> 00:39:43.350
Michael Brown: we're not attacking you acknowledge it let's find out why you got it wrong and let's move forward together when I dealt with that and began to address Q amp on conspiracy overnight 10,000 people gone.

00:39:43.740 --> 00:39:47.850
Michael Brown: Was vicious angry you're not saved your of the devil you're.

00:39:47.850 --> 00:39:55.680
Michael Brown: Not you know you're weak you're it was extraordinary I mean shockingly ugly stuff.

00:39:55.890 --> 00:40:00.570
Michael Brown: yeah I get attacked all the time i'm not sure about me that's that's fine i'm just sending out what's in people.

00:40:00.930 --> 00:40:02.550
Michael Brown: Yes, and about the state of the body.

00:40:03.030 --> 00:40:07.290
Michael Brown: So I wrote this book to say here is how we went off.

00:40:07.740 --> 00:40:29.460
Michael Brown: yeah here's how we go here's all the good that trump did but here's how he went from from President to to political to superhero to political savior here's how we got into an idolatrous view of Donald trump here's here's how we got into an unhealthy Christian nationalism.

00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:38.130
Michael Brown: And merging the Gospel with American politics, and we should be involved, politically, but that it's different than a marriage.

00:40:38.430 --> 00:40:41.580
Michael Brown: Between the Gospel and politics it's very, very different.

00:40:41.730 --> 00:40:55.050
Michael Brown: And it can be subtle I not only address the false prophecies but I explained how we got there, this is this is how false prophecy arrives I look at the anatomy of seduction and how we got pulled in.

00:40:55.530 --> 00:41:08.400
Michael Brown: And, and then, in fact, as I was writing the book, I told my wife Nancy I something doesn't feel right, and then I put the second chapter of the book is called it's about the transcendent.

00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:10.680
Andy Miller III: church Jesus is transcendent yeah I.

00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:14.100
Michael Brown: I felt I had to put that first, this is our calling.

00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:16.590
Michael Brown: amen This is our lofty beautiful calling.

00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:30.300
Michael Brown: This this is who we are, I remember when one of our daughters was getting married and still living at home and and you know the the gown and the whole bit she was a horse rider she didn't go out riding a horse in her gown.

00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:31.860
Michael Brown: And and and she.

00:41:31.980 --> 00:41:38.100
Michael Brown: Have a cup of coffee and a car that's bouncing around your she put that down on and that down was going to stay pristine.

00:41:38.820 --> 00:41:50.730
Michael Brown: We must see the high and lofty calling of the Church, we must see how we're in this world that we are really not of it, which means that the church itself does not belong to a political party it transcends.

00:41:50.850 --> 00:42:00.720
Michael Brown: politics works within but it transcends so having that vision and I come to the end of the book and I look at when I published in 2018.

00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:08.700
Michael Brown: which was Donald trump is not my savior and then 2020 I published evangelicals at the crossroads where we passed the trump test.

00:42:09.060 --> 00:42:20.700
Michael Brown: And then the first book I laid out seven guidelines to follow, and the second book 10 guidelines, I said so let's look at the 17 guidelines that I laid out and basically said we failed on 15 out of 17.

00:42:21.150 --> 00:42:21.540
Michael Brown: So.

00:42:21.600 --> 00:42:28.320
Michael Brown: If we get these right, the next time around, we won't fail, and we can have the influence of the Church is going to have.

00:42:29.100 --> 00:42:36.570
Michael Brown: I believe the book will stir up a lot of controversy, but it'll be healthy controversy, because the other thing is there's a narrative.

00:42:37.020 --> 00:42:49.020
Michael Brown: From those on the Left that those who voted for trump white evangelicals in particular are all white supremacist insurrection is there's now this guilt by association.

00:42:49.560 --> 00:42:57.300
Michael Brown: And there is a caricaturing of Christian nationalists, that if you love Jesus and you're a patriot now you're a Christian nationalist so there's.

00:42:57.630 --> 00:43:08.340
Michael Brown: The areas that we made as conservative followers of Jesus, on the one hand, and then the caricaturing of those errors by those on the left, so I challenged that false narrative.

00:43:08.670 --> 00:43:09.990
Michael Brown: I pushed back there as well.

00:43:10.290 --> 00:43:12.300
Michael Brown: But I believe it's it's essential.

00:43:12.540 --> 00:43:13.980
Michael Brown: We plan to get this out.

00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:22.320
Michael Brown: well ahead of the 2022 elections, so September with those coming in and in 2022 and then well well ahead of 2024.

00:43:22.830 --> 00:43:40.320
Michael Brown: I believe, if we don't get it right that we will affect our witness for full generation already we know of many, many, many who have left the Church, maybe not left the Lord but left the Church, because in their mind, it was trump and Jesus.

00:43:40.590 --> 00:43:53.040
Michael Brown: right that that our association became so deep that it was now this baggage, we believe in Jesus and and we voted for trump and, if you want to be welcome here, you have to you have to embrace both those things where it should be Jesus.

00:43:53.310 --> 00:43:53.700
Andy Miller III: Yes.

00:43:53.790 --> 00:43:55.230
Andy Miller III: And you said, sometimes here.

00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:06.540
Andy Miller III: Are we, even though you you distinguish yourself from those who have gone and what you're describing as too far, I like think I kind of line up with the type of perspective.

00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:15.180
Andy Miller III: That you have to here's the question, though, is like a lot of folks maybe someday like a David French would say I wish I told you this is what's going to happen.

00:44:16.290 --> 00:44:26.640
Andy Miller III: And we were we wrong, this is where people like who represent your view wrong to do is because we're leaving this to a bad place, and this is what they were warning, I still contend that.

00:44:27.150 --> 00:44:38.250
Andy Miller III: The best decision to make in the moment was what you've described like we have clear options we're going to look many Christians voted against Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, and for a policy perspective.

00:44:38.490 --> 00:44:51.210
Andy Miller III: But never, never, never unless we get into this place now where we see some we couldn't even me see this possibility coming along the way, but how do you look at the past now I mean what was it wrong.

00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:56.490
Michael Brown: So I David French and I have interacted some I quote him a bunch of times and.

00:44:56.700 --> 00:44:57.390
Andy Miller III: All that yeah.

00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:10.470
Michael Brown: I sent him the manuscript he's really interested in reading and I haven't heard from him yet, but I sent him the PDF probably a couple of weeks ago and he received it with real interest, so I believe he was right and he was wrong.

00:45:10.770 --> 00:45:22.290
Michael Brown: Okay, so here are my feelings, if I had to do it over right based on the knowledge, I had them I would vote for trump in 2016 and 2020.

00:45:22.650 --> 00:45:36.630
Michael Brown: Okay uh I would also even Okay, I tried to do this throughout whenever I would say anything good about trump to the it mad with his supporters, but I would always say.

00:45:36.630 --> 00:45:37.170
Andy Miller III: Although.

00:45:37.230 --> 00:45:38.820
Michael Brown: I have concerned about xyz.

00:45:39.210 --> 00:45:39.570
Michael Brown: Yes.

00:45:39.600 --> 00:45:43.980
Michael Brown: When I voted for him, I said right here's what i'm voting for him, but here's where things could get off the tracks.

00:45:44.010 --> 00:45:49.530
Michael Brown: Right right, so I might have given the warnings even more clearly.

00:45:50.160 --> 00:45:59.820
Michael Brown: And I know I said we can't get caught up with election fever, I really have to do my best not to because it was so all consuming now I had someone very close to trump.

00:46:00.450 --> 00:46:08.310
Michael Brown: who's clearly saw the issues spoke the truth him all the time regularly corrected him, but he saw the potential of how God could use him.

00:46:08.700 --> 00:46:14.100
Michael Brown: Yes, and the other hand, my wife Nancy who voted for trump and 2016 said, I cannot vote for him and 2020.

00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:15.300
Michael Brown: I will not.

00:46:15.450 --> 00:46:21.870
Michael Brown: he's destroying the country's destroying the church and she was weeping over it, and I had this wonderful holy tension.

00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.840
Michael Brown: With with a dear friend close to trauma.

00:46:25.020 --> 00:46:41.550
Michael Brown: telling me about the possibilities for good and that they still had his ear and my wife seeing how we had become we'd become like trump the church had our social media pages were as ugly as his tweets I mean we we were so divided nasty towards one another.

00:46:41.730 --> 00:46:42.720
Michael Brown: So caught up.

00:46:43.110 --> 00:46:43.620

00:46:44.790 --> 00:46:56.490
Michael Brown: All I can say is throughout I support it, but I had concerns i've publicly said, now that the damage has been done, there are always concerns about his recklessness right.

00:46:56.520 --> 00:47:04.560
Michael Brown: Right, so I said, for example, a wrecking ball is great for demolishing a house it's not good for for renovating a room.

00:47:04.890 --> 00:47:16.560
Michael Brown: Right, so we had a human wrecking ball in trump and, again, I was very public on all these things as a trump supporter raising my concerns and I wasn't trying to hedge my bets it was just this is realism.

00:47:16.890 --> 00:47:17.550
Andy Miller III: Right right.

00:47:17.580 --> 00:47:23.490
Michael Brown: With January six, I believe, is the fruit of his recklessness I don't believe it was an insurrection.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.520
Michael Brown: I don't believe it's the way it was played out.

00:47:26.790 --> 00:47:34.290
Michael Brown: But it was one of the darkest days in our nation's history, the fact that it happened, the fact that the capital was strong, the fact that people were afraid for their lives.

00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:51.240
Michael Brown: And I look at Donald trump's tweets leading up to that I look at what happened at the rally that day at his participation and I hold him morally not legally but morally responsible and now, that is a weapon that will be used against us for decades to come.

00:47:51.600 --> 00:48:00.360
Michael Brown: Right January six and and and and the caricaturing of all trump supporters and the caricaturing of his presidency etc so.

00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:16.680
Michael Brown: I believe, is recklessness open to certain door, and when I saw how wrong the church got this I truly believe that if we did not look to him an idolatrous way and if he had humbled himself and just become a more decent human being, that he'd been in the White House right now.

00:48:16.950 --> 00:48:17.730
Michael Brown: that's what I believe.

00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:32.340
Michael Brown: So i've publicly said it's not a matter of being a fair weather friend, but I do not want them to run in 2024 and if it was 2020 for him versus democratic candidates that I thought was totally destructive I would sit the vote out.

00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:33.540
Michael Brown: Vote for someone else.

00:48:33.810 --> 00:48:48.840
Michael Brown: As a public statement of conscience, as much as I would say he may be the better alternative at this point, I need to make a public statement so in hindsight, I believe, David french's warnings were present and accurate, however, I disagree with him about being and never trump or.

00:48:49.230 --> 00:48:53.580
Andy Miller III: yeah interesting you are you're getting that go on that line right because.

00:48:53.580 --> 00:48:56.730
Michael Brown: Otherwise I get both sides I good that's how it has to be.

00:48:57.240 --> 00:49:03.120
Andy Miller III: And I appreciate it like I would often share some of the content that you had because I felt like it was addressing these.

00:49:03.330 --> 00:49:10.770
Andy Miller III: Like the concerns that I have, I think a lot of people have like I would even go as far as to say like look man didn't say he said he's.

00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:22.650
Andy Miller III: Not repented to me that's essential for salvation like so we have to nevertheless like i'm not elected him as a Christian like i'm not so we're not putting him at that level.

00:49:23.430 --> 00:49:31.560
Andy Miller III: there's several there's a, I would like, for you to talk real briefly about the idea of nationalism, because that term is thrown out.

00:49:31.650 --> 00:49:39.930
Andy Miller III: thrown around a lot now, and I think a lot of folks are trying to figure out well what we mean by nationalism Christian nationalism.

00:49:40.080 --> 00:49:51.000
Michael Brown: yeah so I have a colleague who writes regularly at the stream right also which was founded by James robison a Johnson Eric he is Catholic conservative and absolutely brilliant.

00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:54.540
Michael Brown: And, and he is a sharp a writer, as anyone.

00:49:54.630 --> 00:50:08.160
Michael Brown: That, I know, and he and I are on the opposite side of the Christian nationalism, he says, take the term and use it rightly wear it and use it rightly and and don't let anyone make it into something negative.

00:50:08.700 --> 00:50:11.910
Michael Brown: that's his position and he argues for It brilliantly.

00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:25.890
Michael Brown: I quote him in my book, in fact, saying here's here's his position I have the opposite view that there is truth to the term no words, there is such a thing as Christian nationalism and it's unhealthy.

00:50:26.730 --> 00:50:42.780
Michael Brown: It was manifest, for example, that the Jericho March, some of these events that took place right before January six the end of of of 2020 the beginning of 2021 where you've got speakers like with the American flag draped around them, you know, quoting Gospel scripture.

00:50:43.050 --> 00:50:47.640
Michael Brown: yeah and this merging of Americans purposes and the Kingdom of God so.

00:50:48.150 --> 00:50:51.240
Michael Brown: nationalism in the sense of I love America.

00:50:51.750 --> 00:50:58.740
Michael Brown: And I believe we have to think of america's interest first and then we can be a nation that can help the rest of the world.

00:50:59.010 --> 00:51:01.890
Michael Brown: Okay, I understand that every nation has to do that.

00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:17.820
Michael Brown: right and as long as we have an honest appreciation of our nation we look at the good with the bad right to this moment okay i'm all for a healthy patriotism and and there's a certain pride the American flag you just you know World War Two alone if that's, the only thing we ever did.

00:51:18.540 --> 00:51:23.040
Michael Brown: Was help defeat the the Nazis and and the the Japanese imperialists, then.

00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:23.940
Michael Brown: So be it.

00:51:24.420 --> 00:51:30.480
Michael Brown: yeah at the same time we we are citizens first and foremost, have a heavenly kingdom.

00:51:30.930 --> 00:51:31.140
Andy Miller III: Right.

00:51:31.170 --> 00:51:41.790
Michael Brown: And our loyalty is first and foremost, there and America is a fallen nation like every other nation on the planet, we have more Christian history than many, but we are a fallen nation like every other nation on the planet.

00:51:42.270 --> 00:51:48.060
Michael Brown: We are full of sin, we are full of murder and violence, where the world's leading expert or pornography.

00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.640
Michael Brown: We have epidemic drug problems in our midst.

00:51:50.940 --> 00:52:02.100
Michael Brown: We have a horrible history with race and with dealing with Native Americans so we're a fallen nation like every other nation that names redemption and and and the goal.

00:52:02.640 --> 00:52:22.560
Michael Brown: is to win Americans to Jesus through the Gospel some have said that we love America so much that we don't even love Americans anymore that we've lost we've lost sight of that so Christian nationalism is now saying that our loyalty to Jesus is also our loyalty to America.

00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:27.450
Michael Brown: um that our allegiance to the Kingdom of God is also a patriotism.

00:52:27.630 --> 00:52:41.940
Michael Brown: Right and and that taking up arms to protect our families is a Christian duty and sacred calling and now these things get merged together, and if you dare question it well, where their founding fathers wrong.

00:52:42.330 --> 00:52:46.740
Michael Brown: Did they get it wrong, would you have fun on the side of the British and so that's how it's postured.

00:52:47.130 --> 00:53:00.060
Michael Brown: So it's it's dangerous again what my colleague john Smith is advocating is let's let's own the term and let's not let the world define it and then even there we'd have some differences, but he argues for that brilliantly.

00:53:00.540 --> 00:53:15.450
Michael Brown: My thing is, know that the term forget how the left is using it forget how the media is using it, there is an unhealthy association with let's look at the substance of it, not the naming and the substance is what we must reject.

00:53:15.720 --> 00:53:33.150
Michael Brown: And, once more, it is the merging of the Kingdom of God, with patriotism, it is wrapping the Gospel and the American flag, I can assure you that Roman Christians to Christians in the Roman Empire in the year 100 did not confuse loyalty to Jesus with loyalty to Rome.

00:53:33.660 --> 00:53:34.650
Michael Brown: I can assure you.

00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:38.790
Michael Brown: That that they did not have as a slogan make Rome even greater and.

00:53:39.810 --> 00:53:46.590
Michael Brown: I can assure you that Christians in Communist China do not confuse loyalty to the state with loyalty to Jesus.

00:53:46.950 --> 00:53:52.380
Michael Brown: And that they're great goal is not to make China even bigger and greater their great goal is to see.

00:53:52.590 --> 00:54:04.560
Michael Brown: Chinese people come to Jesus and the nation balance knee and when when things get merged together, it is very unhealthy and then you have god's party versus the devil's party.

00:54:04.890 --> 00:54:19.500
Michael Brown: right because Republicans hold too many of the moral values that are more important to conservative Christian so it's Republicans god's party and god's man in the White House versus the the democrats and things and becomes very unhealthy and destructive.

00:54:19.680 --> 00:54:24.960
Andy Miller III: that's what ends up happening so often, and I think we end up getting in a position where we.

00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:39.420
Andy Miller III: Say like our faith is connected to a particular institution, and in this case as we're talking it's the institution of the United States of America, which, as you said, has done some good things, and has done some terrible things and we need to own up to all that.

00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:43.770
Andy Miller III: I see this, even with churches, so that.

00:54:44.910 --> 00:54:50.880
Andy Miller III: Then I don't know what the proper term would be for it, but if we're in a church and I loyalty to Jesus.

00:54:51.150 --> 00:54:57.330
Andy Miller III: Is equated then with loyalty to a particular denomination so my friends in the United Methodist church right now.

00:54:57.510 --> 00:55:08.130
Andy Miller III: are making a decision like to separate from the Church, that is openly ordaining lesbian lesbian Bishop and moving against what they have covenant together.

00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:16.680
Andy Miller III: As a denomination so some are saying no we're going to be up, but some that's it no, no, I I need to like my loyalty Jesus is connected to my vow.

00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:23.280
Andy Miller III: To be a nightmare to administer in my distribution, some people say my loyalty to Jesus is connected is.

00:55:23.550 --> 00:55:33.060
Andy Miller III: lived out through the Salvation Army, the same thing could be even like an academic institution like the schools, I went to are very important to me, but those institutions.

00:55:33.570 --> 00:55:41.910
Andy Miller III: can fail and do fail the same and obviously it's a bigger issue when it comes to a whole nation of 300 million plus.

00:55:42.180 --> 00:55:56.340
Andy Miller III: People so like I can see some of these like is a tendency to want to come together with the groups and institutions that serve us that help us the same time, we have to be able to divide that from the goal of the church universal.

00:55:56.850 --> 00:56:07.980
Michael Brown: yeah and look I can't remember voting democrat in my life if I did, it would have been decades ago when it was Jimmy Carter we had a born again Christian presence.

00:56:09.150 --> 00:56:22.350
Michael Brown: But I don't remember even voting back then in those early years but I voted exclusively republican from many, many years as far back as I can remember, but i'm a registered independent yes.

00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:24.870
Michael Brown: It was just a statement for me i'm not judging anyone else.

00:56:25.020 --> 00:56:27.090
Michael Brown: Right, it was a statement of conscience for me.

00:56:27.390 --> 00:56:35.280
Michael Brown: To say that I do not belong to either party, but then I vote accordingly, so let's say you gave me a choice okay.

00:56:35.850 --> 00:56:48.450
Michael Brown: lay out your strategy, the 10 most important things the church can do to impact America and bring about lasting change, I would have getting involved politically on the list, but probably down around nine or 10.

00:56:48.810 --> 00:56:49.140
Andy Miller III: Okay.

00:56:49.200 --> 00:56:57.000
Michael Brown: But that'd be way down in terms of the strategies and the weapons that God has given us the political world is is a corrupt fallen world.

00:56:57.600 --> 00:57:14.940
Michael Brown: it's full of compromise it's full of power it's full of corruption it's full of your good old boy syndrome and working the system so good can come out of it, but if I put my trust in that system i'm now leaning on the arm of the flesh.

00:57:15.120 --> 00:57:16.440
Michael Brown: So we'll be involved.

00:57:16.950 --> 00:57:20.700
Michael Brown: And let's let Christian leaders be raised up to run for political office.

00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:25.590
Michael Brown: And let's find godly men and women from school boards, you know up through President, yes, by all means.

00:57:25.860 --> 00:57:41.970
Michael Brown: And let's pray for our elected officials let's vote our conscience and let's lobby but, but this it's almost as if, in the last elections, that the whole church became like the family Research Council so that's Tony Perkins frc they do a great job at.

00:57:41.970 --> 00:57:43.410
Michael Brown: What they do that's their calling.

00:57:43.710 --> 00:57:44.880
Michael Brown: that's who he is.

00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:45.330
Andy Miller III: Right.

00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:50.490
Michael Brown: right there in there, talking to the political use their lobbying Congress their understanding the bills.

00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:57.810
Michael Brown: they're helping educate the Church, especially at times to vote here voter guys Okay, they do what they do, but we all became consumed we all.

00:57:58.350 --> 00:58:06.540
Michael Brown: Our major focus and it seemed that that where we stood on Donald trump became more important than where we stood on Jesus.

00:58:06.780 --> 00:58:07.260
Michael Brown: yeah.

00:58:07.410 --> 00:58:11.640
Michael Brown: And I had people say if you vote for him you're not saved if you don't vote for him you're not saved.

00:58:11.790 --> 00:58:24.390
Michael Brown: wow so that is when we get things out of proportion, or we judge someone that's not in our group you're not saved by the way, when it comes to the Methodist the handwriting on the wall, for many, many years.

00:58:24.600 --> 00:58:36.900
Michael Brown: yeah and and while I really can respect people trying to work for unity, because that's important to the Lord, and while I really respect those that want to try to preserve, something that has a history.

00:58:37.230 --> 00:58:37.440
Andy Miller III: Right.

00:58:37.470 --> 00:58:40.740
Michael Brown: I believe the big mistake was that people didn't separate many, many years ago.

00:58:40.980 --> 00:58:41.460
Andy Miller III: that's right.

00:58:41.520 --> 00:58:43.020
Michael Brown: Because where this was going.

00:58:43.260 --> 00:58:46.020
Michael Brown: yeah we knew that there was no debate on where this was going.

00:58:46.440 --> 00:58:56.280
Michael Brown: And the righteous thing you cast your vote and then you walk out and when enough work out together now you have your new denomination formed immediately or you join with with someone else.

00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:59.160
Michael Brown: So the more I kind of classic in my views but.

00:58:59.730 --> 00:59:08.550
Andy Miller III: Well, I think a lot of people feel that way now there I had on my podcast Robin fro who leads the good news movement, which has been an evangelical group for 50 years.

00:59:08.700 --> 00:59:17.730
Andy Miller III: Trying to help the United Methodist church politically, but one of the leaders in that tradition, was a man named bill henson who, and I believe 2004 he is a pastor of a large church and.

00:59:18.120 --> 00:59:24.270
Andy Miller III: One of the largest united Methodist churches in the country and Houston and he he said he call it that point after one of their.

00:59:25.050 --> 00:59:30.450
Andy Miller III: General conferences said it's time for an amicable separation, where two different groups and people.

00:59:30.720 --> 00:59:37.170
Andy Miller III: called him out for that, no, no, we need to stay in the fight, and here we are 18 years later, where the where the Methodist church.

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:48.120
Andy Miller III: Any my denomination to like I think that's what's happening is is becoming clear it's a global denomination 130 countries around the world, and there are pockets of salvation is who are calling for.

00:59:48.450 --> 00:59:59.040
Andy Miller III: An embrace of the LGBT Q agenda and it's it's it's time to say, like the way that we move forward here is that we either are something as a group or we're not.

00:59:59.310 --> 00:59:59.670
Andy Miller III: yeah.

00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:05.760
Andy Miller III: And that means accountability and that just where maybe it seems kind of classic that it might just be true accountability.

01:00:05.820 --> 01:00:24.150
Michael Brown: But yeah you're right, it is it's it's inevitable that and again it's not being troublemakers it's it's not it's not being proud it's simply being realistic honest before the Lord, and I really trust i'm just looking at the clock and I got to wind down but.

01:00:25.350 --> 01:00:37.980
Michael Brown: I really trust that people read this book will have kind of a personal awakening experience, those that did get caught up in a wrong way you read it's like all had to have, I do have that happen.

01:00:38.010 --> 01:00:38.310
Andy Miller III: Right.

01:00:38.370 --> 01:00:39.750
Michael Brown: Right and then here's how we move forward.

01:00:40.050 --> 01:00:46.950
Michael Brown: Others would say I knew it I knew I knew it I knew it, I always felt like this, this guy's saying when I feel but either way.

01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:57.570
Michael Brown: I believe it's going to be important read that i've sent it to two reporters you know journalists on the left as well that have an interest so and and I tell some of their story and then different with it.

01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:07.860
Michael Brown: yeah we're laying it out as honestly, as we can, but political seduction of the church folks get it comes out September six so about to come out.

01:01:08.220 --> 01:01:17.400
Michael Brown: folks can pre order on my website ask Dr or just over on Amazon and and I believe it's going to be an important I opening read may the Lord help us to get this right.

01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:22.980
Andy Miller III: Yes, the political seduction of the church check it out and and just check out Dr brown's ministry ask Dr Brown.

01:01:23.010 --> 01:01:26.220
Andy Miller III: forgive me, forgive me.

01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:33.660
Andy Miller III: You might get a medical doctor helping you their past that side nevertheless let's make sure to take a look at this so we're prepared for what's coming.

01:01:34.230 --> 01:01:40.320
Andy Miller III: Thank you so much, let me ask you one more question it's not a political question, not even theological question Oh, it could be a theological.

01:01:40.620 --> 01:01:44.880
Andy Miller III: Is the title of my podcast is more to the story and we people who.

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Andy Miller III: Maybe listen this podcast may have heard of you, but is there, more to the story of Michael brown than we typically know is there, something that maybe is a hobby that you do you don't get to talk about very often what's more to the story of Dr Michael Brown.

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Michael Brown: Well, last night.

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Michael Brown: it's late at night, the smoke detectors in our House started going off.

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Michael Brown: Okay, which meant that my wife and I now had to figure out why they're going off and and change the batteries, to do with ever had to be done or blow the dust out etc well Nancy has her own tool costs.

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Michael Brown: Okay, one third of our garage is filled with nancy's out door landscaping equipment tools and things like that.

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Michael Brown: Okay um when I help her and she's sending me to get her a tool, she has to describe it, for me, because I don't know tools well so as i'm on the ladder trying to figure out how to put the smoke detector back on.

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Michael Brown: She was a say it, the wife does like when the husband, at least, can do something.

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Michael Brown: So.

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Michael Brown: She wants told me that if it was back in the days of caveman I wouldn't have made it.

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Michael Brown: So I am not a handyman.

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Michael Brown: I said honey look I got some really good gifts in some areas that i'm just lacking in the other However, I do believe that I remember how to do it this time.

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Michael Brown: She told me is what I said last time.

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Michael Brown: I said normally it takes me a few times to get it right, so I am not a handyman and and whatever gifts, I have, I have some conspicuous slacks, on the other side but i'm hoping i'm 67 and i'm hoping to improve on that.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, I love it moving on to perfection is john when I say would say.

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Andy Miller III: Good oh say thank you so much, Dr brown for your time, it means a lot to us, I appreciate you in the ministry that you have, and particularly headed into 2022 and 2024.

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Andy Miller III: This stand that you're taking is one that is strong, but I pray that God will use this and the book, the political seduction of the church check it out friends.

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